The CGL situation p3 Options

[Jaid]

last i heard, computer-based character generation was a legal grey area because microsoft owns the digital rights for shadowrun which may or may not include programs that allow you to create characters for the pen and paper RPG.

IANAL, but i doubt it would really hold up in court personally... but microsoft could certainly tie it up for long enough if they wanted to that it would in the end not make much of a difference. of course, there's no way of knowing if microsoft would want to, so who knows?

[Dread Moores]

Something that could be awesome is an app version of it. I don't know what sort of deal is in place for the Heavy Metal Pro guy to do what he does. I know when you buy the software, you buy it from him, so he doesn't have to worry about Catalyst's financial situation, other than having to deal with some new license holder should his license come up for renewal.

I would strongly recommend not looking to Rick Raisley (the Heavy Metal Pro guy) to give app support. Let me be clear, I respect the heck out of Rick's work, and have bought all the various HM products over the years. But the fact that Rick has long been a single guy working on the projects (I believe he's starting to get some outside help now), along with a number of interfering real life issues (which definitely take priority), have left him extremely behind. As in, as a fan's opinion only, I strongly feel he has a greater chance of a vaporware schedule than even CGL at this point. I truly hope that Rick gets his ducks all lined up, and we see a new HM version. But for now, he's been quickly outpaced by fan based projects like MegaMekLab and SolarisSkunkWerks. So much so, that MML (a fan based production) is being used by CGL to produce the official record sheets for Battletech, rather than using the program developed by the guy who has the official license to make such software.

[Adam]

Last time Jordan got the properties, he raped BattleTech for quick cash during the collectible game craze. ShadowRun was ignored, then sent off a a licensee as part of the Classic BattleTech package.

You have some things backwards here -- Shadowrun was licensed to FanPro LLC *before* BattleTech was. At Gen Con 2001, FanPro had just released Year of the Comet for Shadowrun, but the BattleTech license stuff was yet to be finalized.

[Stahlseele]

I'm gonna hold off on it for just the moment because a) if CGL folds I can sell it to the next company and b) if CGL doesn't fold, someone else has already expressed a modicum of interest ($$$) in it, so they get first dibs. Worst comes to worst, I'll just publish the whole thing online, warts and all.

Heh, Quality Work allways finds someone who wants it and hopefully someone who is able to pay for it too ^^

[Cergorach]

Jason offered to continue to pay me for my work on PACKS and other drafts. I don't believe that I (or any other freelancer) would actually get paid, despite Jason's promises, so I terminated the contracts entirely. I'm not willing to get down on my knees and beg to be paid, and no one else is going to get down on his knees and beg me not to take my drafts and go home. (Honestly, I think Jason was glad to be rid of me. We butted heads a lot.)

I can understand that you want to get paid for your work, but...
1.) The work was already done.
2.) Terminating the contract insures that you won't get paid (zero chance of getting paid).
3.) There might be a small chance that you would get paid for the work if you didn't terminate your contract (the chance would be bigger then zero).
4.) Now someone needs to do the work again, delaying production, and that hurts the fans.
5.) Releasing the work anyway might get you into some serious legal trouble.

I can understand why you terminated the contract, it's the principle of the thing, but it hurts everyone. In business, if you continue to get paid (even if there's a small chance), you need to swallow your pride more often.

[JM Hardy]

There's been a few mentions of the freelancers still not being paid, especially after books were pulled. And that seems to be an ongoing concern, in a lot of this discussion.

Jason, is it possible to mention to management that it would be possibly beneficial to drop another press release when repayment has begun? It might help to give a little feedback to the community that way. Not that numbers or anything would be needed, simply just "Hey, that plan we set up...we started it. Checks have been cut." I realize GAMA/Topps meeting will delay things, but just a suggestion to pass along.

I also realize there's some folks who think that repayment won't happen. And you might very well be right, I have no idea. I'm just asking if it does, it'd probably help to let the fanbase know. Since you know, it's been an oft-discussed issue. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

As I think about it, what will most likely happen is that we'll make announcements as books go back on sale or new books are released. I'm not sure if such announcements will contain specific references to freelancers being paid, but as you see those announcements, you'll know that's happened.

Jason H.

[Synner]

This is pretty similar to the original idea behind PACKS, something called "Tier-based Character generation." The initial idea was, basically, to simplify character generation by having three preset "tiers" that would present several options instead of the typical point system, and you would add the options from the different tiers up (the math worked out ahead of time so you didn't break any of the regular chargen rules, which is the tricky part). I don't know if I have my notes on it still. Anyway, PACKS was an offshoot of that, designed to be mostly compatible with the third "tier" - a 100 BP "profile" of a character in a certain career.

When I put together the content specs for Runner's Toolkit, I came up with the idea of a series pre-generated plug-and-play themed character (as in skill) and gear kits - something like the kits I mentioned a while back that my group uses to accelerate chargen (during one of my famous bouts with Cain). I wanted something like that which would speed up the two most time-consuming aspects of character creation (skill acquisition and picking gear).

Of the proposals I got back Bobby's with his concept of a Tier creation system was the coolest, but I thought it was too involved for the Toolkit and I wanted something more focused. The result we hammered out, a middleground alternative that met my desire for customizability and speed, and had some of the versatility Bobby wanted with his tier system is/was PACKs. Bobby then set to work (and hard work it was) devising and calculating dozens of different themed "profiles" and kits", and he turned in an impressive selection.

These kits include pregenerated skills and gear with relevant BP cost and nuyen costs, they were calculated/created so that you could drop/add/replace/raise/lower ratings of elements of each kit without having to recalculate the whole and they would allow both GMs and PCs to build characters that much faster.

Bobby, if you can't find your Tier material I still have your proposal on file. Drop me a line if you need it.

If Peter Taylor left because Catalyst were mucking him around, then I'm even more pissed off with them than I am now. I don't know the guy, but I know his work.

All I will say about this is that Catalyst indicated it wasn't satisfied with certain aspects of my performance and commitment as Line Developer and I felt I was unable to give them (the company) what they wanted, the way they wanted it. So I stepped down. So in a very real sense it was my choice.

[Stahlseele]

And the Synner delivers tha paydata O.o

[CanadianWolverin...]

QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ Mar 30 2010, 03:18 PM) *
I've been trying to be just a lurker lately but I can't contain my opinion any longer.

This does affect me as a fan, as a customer. Why? Because I don't like to knowingly purchase products and services from businesses that do not treat those working for them in what I deem to be a equitable manner. I do not like to purchase clothing that came from sweat shops or stores that do not give productive employees raises and benefits so they have enough to live on.

the freelancers not being paid was confirmed by the freelancers long ago, without any need to resort to posting private correspondence.

additionally, going back to talking about the letter, this isn't because of the letter. if it was just some undefined person who had taken the money, and the freelancers were unpaid (which is the situation as we were aware of it before the private letter was leaked) you would (or should, based on your proclaimed moral stance) have likewise refused to buy their products.

and while i agree that ancient history would have been an excellent choice for writing on many shadowrun projects, and especially the 6th world almanac, i cannot fairly say that the new version won't live up to what he would have produced, because for all we know the new guy is some sort of prodigy when it comes to digging up hundreds of obscure references, meshing them all together, and creating a readable history out of them. or they could go an entirely different route and still produce excellent product. we don't really know, because we really don't know anything at all about the new guy.

Wait, what? Are you arguing with me or agreeing with me? Did you think my post was somehow directed at your stance or you personally? As far as I knew, I was just breaking my own weak willed stance on lurking and sharing my own humble opinion on the situation as a lost future sale for some fictional entertainment.

Try to follow with me for a second, I take posts I see with a grain of salt, so FT's original post 3 threads back now was just "a friendly bird chirped in my ear", so I treated it as a unconfirmed source. Then others started posting, who are confirmed as being freelancers and who confirm not being paid as SOP in the past and this appears to be happening again.

Right then and there, 3 threads back, I let myself continue to ponder the situation and see how things unfolded, but already the conclusion to no longer purchase CGL products was forming in my mind ... "But won't that in turn hurt the freelancer if Almanac doesn't sell a copy to me?" I thought to myself. So, wait and see, let my patience grow thin, as I waited for what I hoped would be an announcement, from say JM Hardy, saying the freelancers had been paid monies owed and then confirmed by freelancers, "Yay, crisis averted!" But no, some odd thread disappearance and a leaked CGL to freelancer letter later and a plainly irate/irritated JM Harding and Ancient History just firmed my own personal resolution.

What the leaked CGL to Freelancers letter did for me was just give a picture to me of a man who was trying to explain away that he had been long term conned by his friend and partner and was continuing to be conned and in turn trying to pass that buck on to the freelancers by stringing them along for as long as possible with what I see as being empty promises of a payday they are already owed. Not inspiring any confidence in me as a customer as to CGL's ability to continue producing quality entertaining fiction, let alone deal equitably with those who develop that entertainment.

Again, didn't pipe any sooner because I felt "lurker" because of a failed attempt at bolstering my own desire for Shadowrun fan fiction with Mr. Fixer Job Board and that waiting to see if the freelancers would be paid in what I consider from my own work experience to be an allowable amount of time to wait for a late paycheck before walking off the job site and looking for other work. I would not want to be treated in my own workplaces the way the SR freelancers have been treated.

Specifically on Ancient History, I thought originally upon arriving here s/he was just a really dedicated fan with a wealth of knowledge on their shelf and willing to share it with others like myself who are new to SR or even just younger, he gets my utmost respect for that alone. To learn his involvement with a product I was waiting for just kind of blew my mind, their name through their generous words carries enough cache with me that the product is devalued without their work attached to the product. For CGL to not only lose AH but actively edge them out of the process is just a symptom of a greater problem that comes from the top down, IMHO.

[otakusensei]

As I think about it, what will most likely happen is that we'll make announcements as books go back on sale or new books are released. I'm not sure if such announcements will contain specific references to freelancers being paid, but as you see those announcements, you'll know that's happened.

Jason H.

Be careful that your damage control doesn't negate the effort of making good on your commitment as a publisher. Bad things happened, don't let CGL try to down play it too much or they'll come off looking like they aren't willing to accept guilt. That just seems like a cover up no matter how many other documents talk about clearing up the situation. You'll also get that much more flak from Dumpshock and no one wants that.

[JM Hardy]

Be careful that your damage control doesn't negate the effort of making good on your commitment as a publisher. Bad things happened, don't let CGL try to down play it too much or they'll come off looking like they aren't willing to accept guilt. That just seems like a cover up no matter how many other documents talk about clearing up the situation. You'll also get that much more flak from Dumpshock and no one wants that.

I understand your point and will keep it in mind, but as I've mentioned before, I have many concerns to juggle, and the amount of flak I get on Dumpshock is only one of them--and not even the most important one.

Jason H.

[darthmord]

If engineers and software designers are authoritarian people, then I guess I was an authoritarian Shadowrun freelancer! Though I'm not sure I'd describe either of those two professions that way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

By the way, I was also removed from the freelancer forums, long before this current stuff happened. I was removed from the freelancer forums when Peter Taylor was "let go" as line developer. I was never really given a reason why, though I imagine it was because of earlier fallout I had with Catalyst when they wanted the Manhattan e-book drafts from me before sending me the contract. I repeatedly asked for the contract, it was not sent, and then finally I told them to take me off that project and not to use any of the material I had already given them. Shortly thereafter, my account was banned from the freelancer forums.

It bothered me a bit, but I was pretty disappointed with Catalyst anyway so I took the not-so-subtle hint and stopped writing for them.

They wanted product freely given before delivering a contract? I don't think so. If that sort of behavior existed at any company I was working for / thinking of working for, I'd quit / leave. Morals and ethics on my part would demand no less.

[darthmord]

There are a couple scenarios I speculated on a while ago, both of which satisfied the 'conflict involving personal ethics' and the person leaving willingly, not being forced out.

Her statement says that she had a conflict between a decision by Catalyst management and her own personal beliefs.

I will say that my own view of being forced out is if you are put into a position where you have to resign or are fired when there is otherwise no conflict between yourself and the company management or direction. It implies to me that the person was doing everything they could to remain with the company.

But the way it has been presented, management made a decision, she disagreed strongly with it, she resigned, just doesn't seem to me like being 'forced out'. Her situation sounds more like bailing out of a bad situation rather than being forced.

Okay, spin it this way... Company makes a bad decision. Employee disagrees with decision. Employee brings up reasons why decision is bad / unethical / whatever in Employee's opinion. This means the decision violates the employee's sense of ethics. Company refuses to change decision. Employee walks. Result? Company made an environment that violated the Employee's sense of ethics which forced the Employee to choose to between employment and ethics.

In a nutshell, as far as that employee would be concerned, the Company forced them out by violating the Employee's sense of ethics. Some could even say it was a hostile work environment due to the perceived ethics clash.

For the record, I nearly quit my company when they tied acknowledgement of training to a requirement to waive constitutionally protected rights guaranteed to US Citizens. I protested (along with a sizable number of others in the company) and we forced company legal to back down. Ethics are a major component of the lives of some people.

I believe in doing the right, proper, and ethical thing. I expect it of my friends, associates, and anyone else that interacts with my daily life. Those who cannot or will not act / behave in an ethical manner, I exclude from my life and actively oppose where possible.

[Stahlseele]

I understand your point and will keep it in mind, but as I've mentioned before, I have many concerns to juggle, and the amount of flak I get on Dumpshock is only one of them--and not even the most important one.

Jason H.

Boo Jason! Boo! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dread Moores]

As I think about it, what will most likely happen is that we'll make announcements as books go back on sale or new books are released. I'm not sure if such announcements will contain specific references to freelancers being paid, but as you see those announcements, you'll know that's happened.

Jason H.

Thanks Jason. That's more than fair. Although, I have no idea if this was affected by the whole mess or not, but hopefully this is good news? I did get my copy of Dawn of the Artifacts: Midnight and the reprinted TRO:3060 today from the Battleshop. So...yay for hopefully new product?

[tweak]

So, instead of 'memo', replace it with 'bank account balance and a portion of production expenses'. I wasn't referring to the email Frank posted. If it was, indeed, sent to people who were not under an NDA, then it was eventually going to get to the public somehow. I was referring to his original post that started this all, which included some hard numbers which would not have been sent out in a memo but would have been known by only a select few who actually work for Catalyst.

He has further hinted at getting additional insider info from people who work or at Catalyst.

Non-payment for services is indeed bad, and it's breaking a contract.
Disclosing private information is also bad, and it's breaking a contract.

Both can be justified under certain circumstances, but I don't think that anything in this situation justifies either.

I've tried to keep a chipper mood about this whole thing. But if someone is not being paid for their work, there are plenty of writer beware sites on the Internet to legitimately complain. An NDA should not prohibit someone from telling other writers about problems.

Anyway, I hope CGL does the right thing, and that's what I am waiting for. They haven't lost me yet, but I doubt I will ever submit content to them. So do the right thing, so I can buy some new Shadowrun books.

[Ancient History]

Thanks Jason. That's more than fair. Although, I have no idea if this was affected by the whole mess or not, but hopefully this is good news? I did get my copy of Dawn of the Artifacts: Midnight and the reprinted TRO:3060 today from the Battleshop. So...yay for hopefully new product?

More like "willful violation of copyright" since, as I understand the situation, Jennifer Harding has pulled her copyrights until her outstanding payments are settled.

[JM Hardy]

More like "willful violation of copyright" since, as I understand the situation, Jennifer Harding has pulled her copyrights until her outstanding payments are settled.

It was a mistake that has been remedied. Should be moot shortly, though.

Jason H.

[Method]

It sounds like the current system wasn't just written by AH, but also based heavily on concepts he came up with himself. I'm kind of curious how CGL will rewrite PACKs without using those ideas.

I'll have to dig out my copy of the playtest document and read through it again...

[Ol' Scratch]

You can't copyright an idea, only the means in which that idea is presented. And even then, only the specific means in which that idea is presented. It wouldn't be a problem at all, especially for something as relatively trivial simple to describe as a new character creation method.

[Cain]

@Cain:
That probably only worked because most of the freelancers writing these books were frequenting these boards.
And Adam. And Jason. And Bishop. And Bull. And Jennifer. Now that there are so many people leaving who listen to us bitch and whine and moan?
It's probably not going to happen again.

Eve if Dumpshock doesn't represent all the Shadowrun fans, it represents a large enough percentage that CGL cannot afford to ignore it. Synner even said that Line Developers past have mined Dumpshock fir freelancer talent. IIRC, that's how Frank Trollman and AH became freelancers in the first place.

Cain:It is one thing to say that you have the ability to affect objective change or a subject that no one has any feelings about. But as evidenced the people involve obviously have some very personal feelings about it and are unlikely to reverse themselves. Further the "Fire the coleman's or i'll complain some more" part makes up at best half those here maybe even a majority here, but it is not the totality of users on here.

Besides if memory serves if the company actually did what you and others advocated SR4 would have never seen the light of day.

Your memory does not serve. Initially, I was one of the biggest proponents of SR4. What soured me on the project is a matter of public record, which you can read if you want to go digging through the DUmpshock records of the time.

Sorry, Raben. I'm mostly referring to everyone as a block, not as individuals.

But point taken. There are both current SR Freelancers and non-current SR Freelancers who are doing an admirable job of mature and responsible behavior over this situation and I find it quite admirable and refreshing.

Yes, they are doing the mature and responsible thing by withholding copyright. No, I'm not being sarcastic. Being mature and responsible means you stand up for yourself. Being a doormat is not the same thing as being mature.

There are a couple scenarios I speculated on a while ago, both of which satisfied the 'conflict involving personal ethics' and the person leaving willingly, not being forced out.

Her statement says that she had a conflict between a decision by Catalyst management and her own personal beliefs.

I will say that my own view of being forced out is if you are put into a position where you have to resign or are fired when there is otherwise no conflict between yourself and the company management or direction. It implies to me that the person was doing everything they could to remain with the company.

But the way it has been presented, management made a decision, she disagreed strongly with it, she resigned, just doesn't seem to me like being 'forced out'. Her situation sounds more like bailing out of a bad situation rather than being forced.

You've just described being forced out for ethical reasons. Now, we don't know if more pressure was applied to the three or not; but at the very minimum, they chose their own personal ethics over a game they love. That indicates that the ethical conflict must have been *extreme*.

All I will say about this is that Catalyst indicated it wasn't satisfied with certain aspects of my performance and commitment as Line Developer and I felt I was unable to give them (the company) what they wanted, the way they wanted it. So I stepped down. So in a very real sense it was my choice.

Despite our many bouts, I do feel bad about this. I don't think it was entirely your choice, though. When you're given two bad choices, it's not fair to claim that you made a bad choice willingly.

You can't copyright an idea, only the means in which that idea is presented. And even then, only the specific means in which that idea is presented. It wouldn't be a problem at all, especially for something as relatively trivial simple to describe as a new character creation method.

In that case, both Synner and myself have claim to the concepts behind PACKS. Since the concept of a modular character system originated with us, I wonder if I can sue to have PACKS yanked in its entirety.

[Aaron]

In that case, both Synner and myself have claim to the concepts behind PACKS. Since the concept of a modular character system originated with us, I wonder if I can sue to have PACKS yanked in its entirety.

Nope. Can't copyright an idea, I'm afraid. You could try patenting it (a la Wizards or Looney), but I don't think any of those patents have been challenged yet, and I believe you'll find plenty of prior art. Unless you actually wrote what they're using, the best you can do is demand it be yanked without the support of law (which would give CGL the right to chuckle at you patronizingly, I believe).

[Method]

Yeah I think suing is a little extreme.

[tweak]

Nope. Can't copyright an idea, I'm afraid. You could try patenting it (a la Wizards or Looney), but I don't think any of those patents have been challenged yet, and I believe you'll find plenty of prior art. Unless you actually wrote what they're using, the best you can do is demand it be yanked without the support of law (which would give CGL the right to chuckle at you patronizingly, I believe).

That leaves fanfic.

[Ancient History]

In that case, both Synner and myself have claim to the concepts behind PACKS. Since the concept of a modular character system originated with us, I wonder if I can sue to have PACKS yanked in its entirety.

Actually, and this is funny, but I didn't even know about your system until it was pointed out to me after the first draft of PACKS was in.