The CGL situation p3 Options

[The Monk]

You know, one of the more painful things about reading these posts is hearing about all the cool things that could have been.

[Dread Moores]

Eve if Dumpshock doesn't represent all the Shadowrun fans, it represents a large enough percentage that CGL cannot afford to ignore it. Synner even said that Line Developers past have mined Dumpshock fir freelancer talent. IIRC, that's how Frank Trollman and AH became freelancers in the first place.

Well, I don't think anybody mentioned that it would be ignored (though I could have missed that elsewhere in the past threads). It also doesn't mean that just because some of the members (or even a majority) of Dumpshock wants something, that CGL (or any company for that matter) will listen. Though I think it's a pretty good indicator with Mr. Hardy's continued posting that he's certainly willing to hear the ideas. No guarantees on what the decision regarding those ideas are. You may (or may not) like the result. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think any online community like this becomes insular to some degree, no matter the size. Because of the frequent interactions, getting to know people's tastes or styles over time, eventually, that group becomes your representation of whatever group they are a part of. It doesn't really mean they're a significant representation though, or even a statistically important one. (They certainly could be. I have no ideas of what the numbers of DS members to SR players are.) I'd suggest the best thing is to consider them a group like any other, no more or less significant.

[Cain]

I was joking guys. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But seriously, this only goes to show how much Dumpshock affects Shadowrun. If ideas and plans we made here end up in print, CGL cannot afford to ignore what goes on here.

[Enin]

500+ posts in 2 days??? Where do you find the time??

I wanted to read up on all the drama and it's just way too overwhelming...

And is it just me, or is it really awkward when you see JH and AH going at it, without actually looking at each other?

[nemafow]

500+ posts in 2 days??? Where do you find the time??

I wanted to read up on all the drama and it's just way too overwhelming...

And is it just me, or is it really awkward when you see JH and AH going at it, without actually looking at each other?

I wouldn't say its awkward, but its defently something I would be happy to see them resolve (either off or or dump).
But unfortunately that may never happen due to how things unfolded.

[Enin]

I agree, both good peeps that do great work. I hate seeing people with common goals and passions be set against each other mostly because of other's wrong-doing.

I hope all of you will be able to work it out in the end, ultimately it's up to you guys though.

[Lansdren]

Right now I'm really hoping someone writes a pregen fun based on this situation just for laughs

As mentioned previously we could have

Silence the leak (Freddy Orkson has been spreading paydata around, find his source at all costs)
A long Holiday (Lawrence Cole has been caught with his hands in the till, Someone with more then vested interest wants to see the situationed closed with the boss taking a long holiday in Lagos)

Or on the flip side
Spread the dissent (Can you launch a multipoint Data drop implicating a otherwise innocent CEO just in time for a second team to steal and make public the data)
I'm going out now, I may be sometime (A CEO needs to be extracted from his office based appartment before vengence obsessed fans of his companies hottest IP lynch him for actions real or imagined)

[Cardul]

*arches an eyebrow at the PACKs sub-discussion*

Wow...that sounds kind of like how I was going to handle chargen for my next
SR game...Skills for the various districts of seattle, skills for the archetype, a quick
gear selection list appropriate for the basic archetype and sub-archetype(face it, there
is a difference between a Damage-sponge tank sam and an Avoidance tank sam).

[crizh]

It's a work of art in my opinion.

Trouble with the copyright thing is that most of the kits are so tight and well designed there is simply no way you could re-label them or switch out one or two things and claim it was original work. It is going to be so obviously derivative of AH's copyrighted work that the whole kit just has to go in the shredder.

I know almost all of you have posted dozens of characters on DS and I'm pretty sure most of you will agree that, apart from rare exceptions, gear is the most time consuming element of character generation. I reckon the PACKS system must have been between 150 and 300 man hours just to create the templates. All the writing would be extra on top of that.

You could do it in less time than that but it would suck compared to the original. So that's at least a month for a skilled, dedicated professional working full-time plus however long for editing, proofing and play-testing. And then printing and shipping from Timbuktu. If you're lucky you'll have it by Christmas.

Which is funny/sad/aggravating because, frankly, the stuff AH wrote could have been packaged as an e-book like Digital Grimoire and been on sale for six months already. Might even have generated enough cash to finance the whole print-run of Runners Toolkit. It's sure worth paying for.

[nezumi]

500+ posts in 2 days??? Where do you find the time??

I wanted to read up on all the drama and it's just way too overwhelming...

And is it just me, or is it really awkward when you see JH and AH going at it, without actually looking at each other?

Indeed. I'm waiting for the cliff notes.

[Doc Byte]

It also doesn't mean that just because some of the members (or even a majority) of Dumpshock wants something, that CGL (or any company for that matter) will listen.

There were some changes from the SR4A PDF to the hardcopy after the 'outrage' at DS.

[Wesley Street]

All I will say about this is that Catalyst indicated it wasn't satisfied with certain aspects of my performance and commitment as Line Developer and I felt I was unable to give them (the company) what they wanted, the way they wanted it. So I stepped down. So in a very real sense it was my choice.

No one can fault you for putting your family first in your life, Peter. I'd make the exact same decision in your shoes.

[KnightRunner]

They wanted product freely given before delivering a contract? I don't think so. If that sort of behavior existed at any company I was working for / thinking of working for, I'd quit / leave. Morals and ethics on my part would demand no less.

Not that I am trying to invalidate your point, but morals and ethics are on the backside of this equation. It is just common sense and good business to protect yourself up front. For both parties BTW, as it can also protect CGl from shenanagins on the part of a freelancer. Having a contract is just simply the way to conduct business. Morals and ethics come into play later, with how a person honors and handles the contract.

I have never performed any freelance writing, but I have done a fair amount of contract work. (I am an electrician) The standard is to be shown a copy of the contract before I submit a bid. I would walk away if anyone balked at this. As such I have never had too much trouble with payment.

[MJBurrage]

It's a work of art in my opinion.

Trouble with the copyright thing is that most of the kits are so tight and well designed there is simply no way you could re-label them or switch out one or two things and claim it was original work. It is going to be so obviously derivative of AH's copyrighted work that the whole kit just has to go in the shredder.

I know almost all of you have posted dozens of characters on DS and I'm pretty sure most of you will agree that, apart from rare exceptions, gear is the most time consuming element of character generation. I reckon the PACKS system must have been between 150 and 300 man hours just to create the templates. All the writing would be extra on top of that.

You could do it in less time than that but it would suck compared to the original. So that's at least a month for a skilled, dedicated professional working full-time plus however long for editing, proofing and play-testing. And then printing and shipping from Timbuktu. If you're lucky you'll have it by Christmas.

Which is funny/sad/aggravating because, frankly, the stuff AH wrote could have been packaged as an e-book like Digital Grimoire and been on sale for six months already. Might even have generated enough cash to finance the whole print-run of Runners Toolkit. It's sure worth paying for.

As I understand it, copyright in no way respects the amount of work one had to do to develop a product, rather copyright protects originality of expression. You could work for years to develop the perfect game, using neat ideas that no one else had ever thought of, and none of those ideas are copyrightable; nor are the rules themselves. Only your particular descriptions of those rules and ideas may be copyrighted. Names of fictional characters, places things, etc. may also not be copyrighted, though they may be trademarked.

See Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp. and U.S. Copyright Office - Games for examples. Another example is that no matter how unusual a font might be, it is not copyrightable (at least in the U.S.)

So Ancient History holds copyright for his description of PACKS, and his descriptions of countries written for SOLA and 6thWA, but he does not own any of the ideas involved. All of the fictional place names, and character names, etc. are protected via Trademark, but in that respect to Topps, licensed to CGL.

I.E. If I rewrote the entire Seattle Sourcebook in my own words, and published it, I would not be violating the copyright of any of the authors, but I would be violating Topps trademarks.

P.S. This should not be taken as a moral opinion on how much (or little) any freelancers work is being rewritten to avoid legal infringement before publication.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

All of the fictional place names, and character names, etc. are protected via Trademark, but in that respect to Topps, licensed to CGL.

That's only half of the picture: Only those that belonged to the shadowrun universe before belong to Topps. Any original character, place, etc. is owned by the author – as is any original story or fact.

So just rewording the latter is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

[Dwight]

That's only half of the picture: Only those that belonged to the shadowrun universe before belong to Topps. Any original character, place, etc. is owned by the author – as is any original story or fact.

So just rewording the latter is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

My understanding is that this is part of the reason that Microsoft went with a setting "re-imagining" for the game done by FASA Studios. Because it's hard to swing an undead Ghoul in SR canon without hitting something that's been added.

[Dread Moores]

There were some changes from the SR4A PDF to the hardcopy after the 'outrage' at DS.

It would probably help if you had quoted my whole paragraph there. I wasn't indicated guaranteed lack of change, simply that DS wasn't guaranteed a specific reaction one way or the other (acceptance or ignorance). I think it's pretty clear that DS has had both over the years. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, I don't think anybody mentioned that it would be ignored (though I could have missed that elsewhere in the past threads). It also doesn't mean that just because some of the members (or even a majority) of Dumpshock wants something, that CGL (or any company for that matter) will listen. Though I think it's a pretty good indicator with Mr. Hardy's continued posting that he's certainly willing to hear the ideas. No guarantees on what the decision regarding those ideas are. You may (or may not) like the result. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

There are no undead Ghouls in Shadowrun.

[Dwight]

There are no undead Ghouls in Shadowrun.

Metaphorically speaking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But if you want more literal, then pencil in 'Shedim'....which as an addition itself I suppose is more poetic. EDIT: Better yet a Shedim inhabiting a ghoul corpse...so yes, you can have undead ghouls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JM Hardy]

Metaphorically speaking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But if you want more literal, then pencil in 'Shedim'....which as an addition itself I suppose is more poetic. EDIT: Better yet a Shedim inhabiting a ghoul corpse...so yes, you can have undead ghouls. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You see? That's one of the things I love about Shadowrun--apply yourself, and you can make just about anything happen!

Jason H.

[Lansdren]

You see? That's one of the things I love about Shadowrun--apply yourself, and you can make just about anything happen!

Jason H.

Whilst I agree with that sentiment I did recently create a monster

I made a dragon pig




its not my fault the drake in my group was getting uppity so I turned him into a pig

[Ancient History]

"If you shapeshift a drake into a pig, and they try to transform...do you get a dragon pig?"
"Common sense says no. Fuck common sense, dragon pigs are awesome."

[Lansdren]

"If you shapeshift a drake into a pig, and they try to transform...do you get a dragon pig?"
"Common sense says no. Fuck common sense, dragon pigs are awesome."

We didnt test the question to much it was scary enough when I grabbed him by the shoulder and made him shift into a little pink piggy.

On a brighter note he is currently working on a tshirt with the dragon pig on. The design is abit rough at the moment but its across between a easten dragon and a pig, curly tail and all.


He can fry his own bacon

[JM Hardy]

"If you shapeshift a drake into a pig, and they try to transform...do you get a dragon pig?"
"Common sense says no. Fuck common sense, dragon pigs are awesome."

Aaaaaaaaaand Bobby and I find common ground.

Jason H.

[Lansdren]

Aaaaaaaaaand Bobby and I find common ground.

Jason H.

Oh dear have I started the end of days?