The CGL situation p3 Options

[Teulisch]

huh. so, aside from the nda/tos argument, whats the current actual news?

although... interesting reaction to a hacker posting paydata to the jackpoint here.

[Demonseed Elite]

And how has said community been harmed?

A couple of scenarios

CGL gets it's act together, retains the license and pays it's debts: Minimal harm, potential loss of talent already gone.
CLG folds: Delay in production likely of a year while new operation spins up, all the problems of above plus the possibility that none of the freelancers return.

Just in the interest of accuracy, there's a third possibility. The license could transfer to a new publisher and that publisher could work out an agreement with Catalyst to get publishing rights to books in the pipeline. Then the freelancers withholding copyright could work with the new license holder to release the copyright, and the new publisher releases the books without much of a hitch in the production schedule.

I know this is an option because it is what happened when FanPro folded and Catalyst took over the license. No one was withholding copyright at the time, but books in the pipeline simply got a Catalyst logo on them instead of a FanPro logo.

[FrankTrollman]

First of all: yes, my account was banned until August of 2037, but as expected my account was reinstated before that.

I agree with AH. As outspoken as I tend to be about Catalyst's mistreatment of freelancers, I'd have preferred that the letter to freelancers was not posted to the public. It accomplished little unless you believed Catalyst's press release word-for-word, in which case I have a bridge I would like to sell you. But it will accomplish a great deal in further breaking down the trust between freelancers and the publisher, trust which up until this point had been mostly damaged by Catalyst, not by the freelancers themselves. But when freelancers start taking communications meant for them to the public, that dynamic changes. I can understand that some freelancers are angry and it's also possible that they didn't realize it would be released publicly, but it does more damage than good.

Let me say first of all, that I understand the rage and anguish that prompted members of the company to give me the information in the first place. But that's not why I agreed to do it.

Yes, releasing information to the wild world outside does not help Catalyst/Freelancer relations. Of course it doesn't. However, I don't really care. Because having looked at what angry people have given me to "get back" at the company - I genuinely don't think there is a future for Catalyst. And I want that fact to be generally known, because I want Topps to know that. I want this information to get out so that Topps can make an informed decision about their license. Because I genuinely believe that the best thing for Shadowrun's future is for Topps to give the license to someone else. Pretty much anyone else, because right now Catalyst does not have the money to pay contracting fees and printing costs to bring out product.

Ancient History and Jennifer Harding have said in print that they have no intention of working for the company without substantial changes. Changes that Randall Bills has said that he has received a sign from God that he will not make. I view this claim as being rather more drastic than a mere corporate puff piece about how things are happening internally and there is an information blackout while that happens. I do not believe that this approach is compatible with Catalyst continuing to be a viable entity. It certainly isn't compatible with me being able to purchase and read a copy of Sixth World Almanac. Because as things currently stand, only a new company with the Shadowrun license could enter into serious negotiations to buy up the contracts to print the material that was written.

The absolute worst thing for the continued printing of Shadowrun books is to have a crippled company that lacks the funds to print materials be left holding the license while the fate of profits from years past languish in multi-year court settlements. That is virtually the only plausible scenario that involves the Sixth World Almanac actually languishing in development hell.

I don't think the freelancers were going to get paid. I don't think that the books were going to be published. And I don't think that any future discussion between Catalyst and the freelancers is capable of mattering. The money is not there, because it was stolen. Randall Bills says that he does not intend to punish the guilty party. The people who were in charge of getting the money back from Loren Coleman have quit. And Randall Bills says that even now, they have not been replaced. The company plan is not a realistic plan. And if Topps knows that, it can give the license to someone else who can pitch a realistic plan. And a new license holder can pay th writers for their work and get that work printed.

That's what it's been about. What it has always been about. Not the revenge fantasies of the people sending me material, but creating a future where Shadowrun is in the hands of a financially solvent company that is not being headed up by an admitted thief.

-Frank

[fistandantilus4....]

1) I noted no part in the letter where Randal Bills claimed to have "received a sign from God." Don't misquote.

2) I'll simply ask nicely not to trash talk on our mods on other forums. Having been suspended, I understand that doesn't leave you a lot of options, and probably some annoyance. Feel free to talk to us. I'd be happy to open a thread on the moderation in the Bugs & News thread, or you can yourself. I've got no problem with talking about the issues you have with us. I just don't want to open an RPG.net account. I do need to get some sleep at the moment though, so I'll be back in a few hours.

[Penta]

Then why not just communicate with Topps?

Why go to the entire damn internet?

[LurkerOutThere]

First of all: yes, my account was banned until August of 2037, but as expected my account was reinstated before that.



Let me say first of all, that I understand the rage and anguish that prompted members of the company to give me the information in the first place. But that's not why I agreed to do it.

I'm guessing that has more to do with fairly blatant attention whoring and love of a good shit storm. I'm reasonably confident somewhere far in the past someone could have hugged you more and so much of this would have been avoided, or at least carried out more constructively.

I genuinely don't think there is a future for Catalyst. And I want that fact to be generally known, because I want Topps to know that. I want this information to get out so that Topps can make an informed decision about their license. Because I genuinely believe that the best thing for Shadowrun's future is for Topps to give the license to someone else. Pretty much anyone else, because right now Catalyst does not have the money to pay contracting fees and printing costs to bring out product.

You don't honestly know that, more importantly you don't know that's the permanent state, what you do want as evidenced by your personal statements is to discredit those involved for personal reasons, deserving or not, because of your personal involvement. You accuse others of duplicity when your own malice is more or less plain to see.

Ancient History and Jennifer Harding have said in print that they have no intention of working for the company without substantial changes. Changes that Randall Bills has said that he has received a sign from God that he will not make. I view this claim as being rather more drastic than a mere corporate puff piece about how things are happening internally and there is an information blackout while that happens. I do not believe that this approach is compatible with Catalyst continuing to be a viable entity.

Regardless of why they might have originally quit or why they will continue not to work for CGL or why CGL will not make those changes is functionally irrelevant. Whether you respect that choice to make it's his call to make. Your obviously upset that it is he and not you that's making that call I get that. But then again you've burned that bridge, so your only dog in this fight is to sling mud as hard and as fast as you can and hope that some of it sticks.

... certainly isn't compatible with me being able to purchase and read a copy of Sixth World Almanac. Because as things currently stand, only a new company with the Shadowrun license could enter into serious negotiations to buy up the contracts to print the material that was written.

Except the concept idea may belong to CGL. The only reason they might sell is to get them out of the financial doldrums after loosing the license. By comparison a new company likely doesn't want to buy said idea if they also must renegotiate with the freelancers for the material rights. Now granted we might see that material under another book name, but at the very least if your stated goal is to protect sixth world almanac your likely going at it the wrong way.

That's what it's been about. What it has always been about. Not the revenge fantasies of the people sending me material, but creating a future where Shadowrun is in the hands of a financially solvent company that is not being headed up by an admitted thief.

-Frank

Your entire last three paragraphs are at the very best conjecture and at the worst some of the finest fantasy creations I've ever seen with you as the shining white night taking on the horrible dragons in your mind. You paint yourself as working for the good of the game when your level of malice and vitrol don't speak to an earnest attempt, or to be blunt, a sound mind.

[JM Hardy]

huh. so, aside from the nda/tos argument, whats the current actual news?

although... interesting reaction to a hacker posting paydata to the jackpoint here.

There is no new news at the moment. I'll post what I can as soon as I can.

Jason H.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Why go to the entire damn internet?

Bigger impact, plain and simple.

Nice? Surely not.

Regardless of why they might have originally quit or why they will continue not to work for CGL or why CGL will not make those changes is functionally irrelevant.

On the contrary, such details are highly relevant to the working state of any organization.

[…] so your only dog in this fight is to sling mud as hard and as fast as you can and hope that some of it sticks.

And you would be doing what, exactly?

Oh, look:

I'm guessing that has more to do with fairly blatant attention whoring and love of a good shit storm.

I'm reasonably confident somewhere far in the past someone could have hugged you more and so much of this would have been avoided, or at least carried out more constructively.

You accuse others of duplicity when your own malice is more or less plain to see.

Your entire last three paragraphs are at the very best conjecture and at the worst some of the finest fantasy creations I've ever seen with you as the shining white night taking on the horrible dragons in your mind. You paint yourself as working for the good of the game when your level of malice and vitrol don't speak to an earnest attempt, or to be blunt, a sound mind.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

[fistandantilus4....]

Yeah, I know. But damn it I'm getting some sleep first.

[Sengir]

CGL gets it's act together, retains the license and pays it's debts: Minimal harm, potential loss of talent already gone.
CLG folds: Delay in production likely of a year while new operation spins up, all the problems of above plus the possibility that none of the freelancers return.

Other possible outcomes:
- CGL gets its act together, retains the licence and pays it's debts, but still everything goes to hell and the licences die a slow and horrible death.
- CGL folds, the news license holder rehires all freelancers and steers the universe into a bright future, pre-SR3 books are released as .pdf for free and a god of your choice descends upon MS with all his wrath and smiteth them until they do a good Shadowrun game.



Not all good possibilities involve CGL, and not all bad ones include the pretense that CGL loses the rights. In reality? We will see...

[LurkerOutThere]

On the contrary, such details are highly relevant to the working state of any organization.

Which despite what some folks tell themselves isn't what's at stake here, at least not here on this forum. I will likely be decided in small meeting rooms and at the checkout counter of the FLGS.

And you would be doing what, exactly?

Playing in the mud just like everyone else.

[imperialus]

1) I noted no part in the letter where Randal Bills claimed to have "received a sign from God." Don't misquote.

Yeah... I read it as "after a lot of introspection Randal decided to forgive a man he had been friends with for years. His personal beliefs played a part in that decision." I fail to see a burning bush.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Which despite what some folks tell themselves isn't what's at stake […]

Mostly because there isn't much at stake anymore right now – the people involved have positioned themselves and fallout ensued.

[…] at least not here on this forum.

Indeed – here on this forum, the current state of affairs is just discussed, featuring people involved.

I will likely be decided in small meeting rooms and at the checkout counter of the FLGS.

It's just as likely to be decided in court rooms.

Such speculations are a pretty moot point right now, so we'll just have to wait & see.

[Celt IMC]

If Frank has not been banned for revealing the letter, I withdraw my previous statement regarding DumpShock's behavior, i.e. not bad show. I completely concur that DS is a private entity and the adminstrators are free to ban or suspend whomever they wish for whatever they wish, with or without reason. I just trust and hope they won't do so. I've been in the same position as them and know it can be an unenviable position to exercise ban and suspend power while trying to maintain the trust of the membership.

I'm still glad Frank posted the letter and the freelancer gave it to him to post. I do wish the best for CGL with Shadowrun. But I am not confident in their future. This is indeed something Topps should know about when trying to decide to extend the license.

[Penta]

Yes, but it's soemthing I'm sure even (especially?) Topps would prefer was communicated privately. Not through the internet.

[kzt]

And it's a good thing. DS is the Official forum after all.

No it's not. It's independent and has lots of interaction with writers etc, but official it's not.

Frank should be sued for his actions. He infringed confidentiality. Even if he was a proxy for a ranting freelancer that freelancer should have all his work done under the NDA taken and given to CGL without payment, for the NDA infringement. That freelancer should also post an official excuse to this board or to CGL. He humiliated CGL and should be humiliated in return.

Frank is essentially judgment proof. He's a college student living on government loans in the Czech republic. How are you going to serve him, much less collect?

[Patrick Goodman]

I'm still glad Frank posted the letter and the freelancer gave it to him to post. I do wish the best for CGL with Shadowrun. But I am not confident in their future. This is indeed something Topps should know about when trying to decide to extend the license.

I think Frank's behavior in this whole shitstorm has been reprehensible, as has been the behavior of whoever gave him the insider information. That's neither here nor there; it's no secret that I've never particularly been one of Frank's fans, and this has cemented the reasoning behind it for me.

Your assumption in all this is that Topps is completely, blissfully ignorant of the whole thing. I can all but assure you that they are not. There's an assload of stuff going on behind the scenes, and I can all but guarantee you (based on nothing more than my knowledge of the people involved) that Topps knows that there's a serious situation going on at CGL involving money. I don't know the specifics of the license contract between Topps and CGL, but I think it's reasonably certain that there's a great deal of communication (or at least attempts at communication), through legal channels if necessary, between the two parties. Knowing Randall, he's probably been in contact with them a very great deal recently.

Most of this public bullshit over the last few days, especially the release of Randall's letter, has been completely unnecessary, and seems to have been done only so that more pain and suffering on the part of everyone involved (including Yours Truly here) can be caused, and the existing pain and suffering prolonged.

And, to quote Forrest Gump, that's all I've got to say about that.

[Dread Moores]

So I'm confused here. Frank posted the letter (and should be congratulated for that) because Topps needed to know about it? The letter where it specifically mentioned that CGL made Topps aware of the situation? Well, I'm so glad we had Random Internet Guy to cover that problem!

[Sengir]

Most of this public bullshit over the last few days, especially the release of Randall's letter, has been completely unnecessary

As far as Topps are concerned? Yes, will have far more info than what is given out to freelancers.


As far as the rest of the world goes? The rumor mill wants to know what's going on and how SR will continue.

[RedeemerofOgar]

My question is, where is the ban on posting private correspondence in the ToS?

I can see the religious thing as being against the ToS, but unlike RPG.net, there's no instruction against posting private emails. Also, there's nothing saying you can be banned for being suspected of leaking Shadowrun material; but according to the first post in this thread, that's exactly what happened.

I'm confused. Are there other rules we should be aware of?

Not rules. Laws. A very brief websearch didn't turn up the law itself, but did find this article that references it:

"In a major article examining the strength of legal arguments to protect private e-mail expression, a University of Arkansas law professor concludes that, based on the historical common law, today's Federal Copyright Act does not protect someone from copying and distributing another person's private expression, which means that forwarding e-mail without permission of the sender may be against the law.

"Going back more than 250 years, the common law recognized that authors of personal correspondence hold absolute property rights in their private expression," said Ned Snow, assistant professor of law."

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529585/

It is therefore potentially in violation of Rule 8.

[Cergorach]

I appreciate the 'leaked' letter, I did not appreciate the insane religious ramble that followed, taking comments so much out of context is looking for trouble where there is none.

Posting a letter to a forum where 100+ freelancers have access to, a lot of whom have some serious issues with the company, and then acting surprised the information 'leaked' is... How shall I say it diplomatically... Having way to much faith in human nature. And when I talk about 'faith' I'm not talking religion.

That also leads me to believe that maybe to much faith is placed in other things, things like "It will work out.", and the ability of the Colemans to pay back the money owed in a decent time frame. I have no way of gouging that because I don't personally know the parties involved. All I can do is speculate at this point.

As for Frank's motivations, he's either a crusader or someone with an axe to grind (he might even be someone hired to discredit CGL (owners) so another party can step in and can take over). Either way, he's using the internet quite effectively, this stuff is getting a lot of 'press', and is reaching a lot of ears.

I can understand why fans are getting angry, but they need to take a serious step back, and take a reality check. You buy a book the price of a couple of McDonalds meals, that doesn't mean you suddenly own or have invested with a company producing that book. You didn't buy a 3 year support contract, you bought a book! There are a bunch of freelancers who have worked hard and haven't been paid, for a lot of them it's a pretty big chunk of cash. Then we have the co owner who is going to miss money in the region that most of us would have to work 5-10 years to acquire. To to mention that he might loose his company that he has spend way more time building up then most of us have spent playing the game(s) and possibly further income. If he can forgive what has happened, why the frag are kids on these forums making such a bloody big stink? Yes, it's going to suck if you have less or no new books, but get some perspective!

[Cain]

As for Frank's motivations, he's either a crusader or someone with an axe to grind (he might even be someone hired to discredit CGL (owners) so another party can step in and can take over). Either way, he's using the internet quite effectively, this stuff is getting a lot of 'press', and is reaching a lot of ears.

Or both. I may think Frank's doing the right things for the right reasons, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have an axe to grind as well.

I can understand why fans are getting angry, but they need to take a serious step back, and take a reality check. You buy a book the price of a couple of McDonalds meals, that doesn't mean you suddenly own or have invested with a company producing that book. You didn't buy a 3 year support contract, you bought a book! There are a bunch of freelancers who have worked hard and haven't been paid, for a lot of them it's a pretty big chunk of cash. Then we have the co owner who is going to miss money in the region that most of us would have to work 5-10 years to acquire. To to mention that he might loose his company that he has spend way more time building up then most of us have spent playing the game(s) and possibly further income. If he can forgive what has happened, why the frag are kids on these forums making such a bloody big stink? Yes, it's going to suck if you have less or no new books, but get some perspective!

If you bought a pdf of, say, Vice on DriveThruRpg.net, you may not be able to download all five times due to the flap at Catalyst. That means it does directly affect your pocketbook.

[Cergorach]

If you bought a pdf of, say, Vice on DriveThruRpg.net, you may not be able to download all five times due to the flap at Catalyst. That means it does directly affect your pocketbook.

That's a beef with DTRPG, if they say that you can download it five times, then they have a problem with you.

[Stahlseele]

Not rules. Laws. A very brief websearch didn't turn up the law itself, but did find this article that references it:

"In a major article examining the strength of legal arguments to protect private e-mail expression, a University of Arkansas law professor concludes that, based on the historical common law, today's Federal Copyright Act does not protect someone from copying and distributing another person's private expression, which means that forwarding e-mail without permission of the sender may be against the law.

"Going back more than 250 years, the common law recognized that authors of personal correspondence hold absolute property rights in their private expression," said Ned Snow, assistant professor of law."

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529585/

It is therefore potentially in violation of Rule 8.

And yet all e-mail-programs have the forwarding button in them O.o

[Sengir]

Not rules. Laws. A very brief websearch didn't turn up the law itself, but did find this article that references it:

"In a major article examining the strength of legal arguments to protect private e-mail expression, a University of Arkansas law professor concludes that, based on the historical common law, today's Federal Copyright Act does not protect someone from copying and distributing another person's private expression, which means that forwarding e-mail without permission of the sender may be against the law.

"Going back more than 250 years, the common law recognized that authors of personal correspondence hold absolute property rights in their private expression," said Ned Snow, assistant professor of law."

http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/529585/

Yes, the original author of a text holds the copyright for it. Once the author starts distributing text to a more-or-less well defined group (as opposed to a clearly stated list of five people, for example) and things like fair use rear their heads, things get far less clean cut.


PS: Not that this is any more than academic question by now. The net never forgets.