The CGL situation p3 Options

[BishopMcQ]

Hey folks--

I'm pretty sure that all the freelancers know who I am, and that includes the last few developers I've worked under. The owners have gotten to hear from me over the last few weeks as well. Some of the old timers may have noticed that I've been keeping my head down and staying out of the conversations because of the current situation.

While I'm not a moderator on the forum, I'd like to ask that all of the owners take a deep breath and back away from Dumpshock. There are other ways for each of you to communicate with each other. Those methods don't involve hiding behind veils and obscure screen names while sniping at one another. In many ways, I think the arguments (and this extends to the freelancers, SR Fans, BT Playtesters and authors) have come down to a war of ideology. There is your side, their side, and somewhere in the middle you'll find the truth. My job has been both professionally in my work for CGL and personally as a freelancer, to remain emotionally uninvested and look from both sides. I hope that I have done that and portrayed an equitable vision of the facts without emotional bias whenever I have been asked for them.

Please, take the flame wars, personal grudges, and zealotry from both sides, to a more private venue. Leave DSF to the fans to discuss their take on things. You'll see both sides get picked up without needing to air the dirty laundry of your personal relationships here. If you are taking legal action, then just take it and don't antagonize each other like parents bickering in front of their kids. If not, then posturing in front of everyone is no better than a peacock strutting with its tail feathers.

Thank you.

[SecGuard]

I'm assuming that CGL is paying the freelancers they need too, to get out product so they can pay the rest of the freelancers.

At least thats what i hope they are doing.

[Ancient History]

That would make sense, but honestly I'm not sure that's what they are doing. What would make sense, to me, is to pay off Vice and Midnight - which are already printed and in the US, pdfs ready for sale. Choosing not to do that is...weird.

[Shinobi Killfist]

But the truth remains that if you've read and appreciated Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal, Unwired, Runner Havens, Corporate Enclaves, Feral Cities, Emergence, Ghost Cartels, Runners' Companion, Dusk, Midnight, Vice (not to mention the unpublished Runners' Toolkit and Corp Guide) you owe much of your enjoyment to a very small number of people.

I loved Seattle 2072 and Arsenal was very well done. the rest were okay, maybe allowing in a bigger group of people would help.

[Adam]

I loved Seattle 2072 and Arsenal was very well done. the rest were okay, maybe allowing in a bigger group of people would help.

Continual efforts were made to grow the SR freelancer pool by the SR developers during all the time I was at Catalyst -- both in the direction of fans that were ready to step up, and towards established gaming professionals interested in working on the line.

[Stahlseele]

But we don't want people as freelancers who ask things like:"Can all people see augmented reality?"

[urgru]

@Cain: You can usually bring suits against out of state people arising from transactions that took place within the state (e.g. a contract being signed), but most employment contracts will include venue and choice of law provisions that would prevent actions in the freelancers' home states. Jurisdictions that bar counsel in small claims court can't/don't stop people from consulting with attorneys out of court, so there's no problem with talking to an attorney to figure out how to get a case removed. The biggest bar to removal will usually be reaching the amount in controversy requirement for diversity jurisdiction ($75k), but that can often be circumvented by pleading high-dollar counterclaims (e.g. defamation, slander of copyright, tortious interference with contract). Courts accepted amounts pleaded unless it's certain, as a legal matter, that the amounts can't be recovered.

Also, Catalyst may not need to worry about fees and costs. Comprehensive general liability insurers will assume defenses in many suits against insured businesses. If an insurer gets involved, the settlement calculus totally changes. The whole thing is a crapshoot, depends on contracts we don't have access to, and isn't something we can reasonably speculate about. People need to see their own attorneys (esp. where copyright issues are involved); decade and a half old anecdotes from one's own state aren't good legal guideposts.

[Cardul]

You know, something I really do not like seeing is all the vitriol over this.
I mean, Ms. Harding being upset because she is getting payment for some, but not all of her contributions is understandable,
but the books she listed includes not getting payment for includes some of the latest books.
Did CGL really say "We will pay you for A, B, and C, but not Y and Z"? Or did they say "We are sending payment for A, B, and C, but not Y and Z"?
The semantics could mean alot. In the first, it would mean not being paid for them, in the second it can mean not being paid yet.

I can envision, since I have been in similar situations myself, RL, that they got money in, and first thing they had to do was decide what bills to pay NOW,
and what bills to pay on the next paycheck. I could see it being alot like this: "If we pay these books that are out NOW, that people REALLY want, we can make sure
we are getting more money to pay these books that just came out and are not selling as well, or that we are waiting on to come out. Let's pay what is most likely
to get us income to pay the other books off." I mean, who has not put off paying their cable or phone bill to make their house-payment and power bill? Honestly, I
am inclined to see it in more that light.

Really, though, as just a fan of the game, there is not much I can do. I can express my opinion(which is an, admittedly, optimistic one), and hope for the best, or I can
descend into the negativity many here seem to be showing. I would rather be positive and hopeful, though, since that is just better all around. I know Shadowrun has
survived three publishers, and that, when all is said and done, will still be here in years to come. Whether that is under current CGL, CGL with management changes,
or a new company, who can say. All I can do is wait and see. Who here, really, can do more then that?

[Shinobi Killfist]

But we don't want people as freelancers who ask things like:"Can all people see augmented reality?"

If the person is a better writer and rules designer I'd rather have the, "Can all people see augmented reality?" person design rules and write sections and then have someone who knows the setting and rules better proofread it. Ignoring talent due to setting snobbery just means you might be settling for lesser talent.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Continual efforts were made to grow the SR freelancer pool by the SR developers during all the time I was at Catalyst -- both in the direction of fans that were ready to step up, and towards established gaming professionals interested in working on the line.

I'm sure effort was. I just look at my Batletech stuff and then I loo at my SR stuff and maybe because I love SR more i am biased, but it really looks like a lot more talent(numerically at least) and effort went to battletech.

[tweak]

I'm sure effort was. I just look at my Batletech stuff and then I loo at my SR stuff and maybe because I love SR more i am biased, but it really looks like a lot more talent(numerically at least) and effort went to battletech.

I love both games. What I don't get is why SR would not get priority. Last I heard, Shadowrun made more money for Catalyst than Battletech. And since the situation has to do with lack of funds, I would think even more effort would go into sure things to generate more cash.

[pbangarth]

To whoever does eventually take the reins of Shadowrun, I have one request. Please hire a technical writer, someone who actually knows how to tell people how to do/use/make things. We have enough die-hard SR lovers who fluff like there's no tomorrow, but put half of Dumpshock out of commission and write the damn rules properly the first time out.

Just sayin'.

[fistandantilus4....]

That would be a nice thought, were it actually true. ....

I don't want to be smug, but people who know only what they've found in the last 15 minutes on Google really shouldn't be commenting on the freelancers' legal options. ....

It's impossible to bring cases involving parties from different states ("diversity" cases) in many small claims courts. Where it's possible, it's usually simple for one of the parties to request by motion that the suit be "removed" to a federal court. It's true that a freelancer could proceed pro se in order to avoid paying fees to counsel, but litigants representing themselves in federal courts have a markedly lower chance of success, esp. with respect to complex legal issues like veil piercings, than folks with attorneys....
...If the freelancers are interested in suits, they should and will go see licensed counsel in their state(s) of residence.

This is to show the difference between what is a useful post, and what falls into the category of that catch all "flaming". If you "don't want to be smug", don't. It's like saying "With all due respect" and then saying something that simply isn't respectful. The last couple of pages are getting more and more of this kind of tone in them. It needs to stop. Apologies if we're a page or two behind, everyone is posting quite actively, which is great.

Ok, i preface this with all the respect that is due you as a a fan of your work on here in the books, but we get it, you don't like the way things are going

Case in point. Don't try to tell another poster what they should or shouldn't say.

please don't pretend like it will fix some great moral injustice or that it will actually help the game or help those people get paid, because it won't

Emphasis mine. There is at least some evidence to the contrary.

...but hey, you and these other "disgrunted freelancers" won't need to worry about that when you set your own company up. which is the real reason you're trying to sink CGL isn't it?

Again, these posts aare not in their entirety bad. Post your opinion on the situation, we have no particular side to espose. But keep it civil. Do NOT come over from other boards for the sole purpose of trying to burn other users.

We now return you to your normally scheduled program.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I love both games. What I don't get is why SR would not get priority. Last I heard, Shadowrun made more money for Catalyst than Battletech. And since the situation has to do with lack of funds, I would think even more effort would go into sure things to generate more cash.

No idea. And like I said I could be biased. But maybe the owners just like battletech more, it would not surprise me if the owner of a game company made decisions based more upon his hobby preference and not what was best financially.

To whoever does eventually take the reins of Shadowrun, I have one request. Please hire a technical writer, someone who actually knows how to tell people how to do/use/make things. We have enough die-hard SR lovers who fluff like there's no tomorrow, but put half of Dumpshock out of commission and write the damn rules properly the first time out.

Just sayin'.

Which is why I'd rather they hire someone who knows how to write rules even if they don't know shadowrun perfectly and then have people who know the setting proofread it. It is a game and probably the most important part is the rules, and a good technically writer can do wonders.

I don't expect them to completely get it right the first time, since I have never seen that happen before.

[Adam]

I'm sure effort was. I just look at my Batletech stuff and then I loo at my SR stuff and maybe because I love SR more i am biased, but it really looks like a lot more talent(numerically at least) and effort went to battletech.

There are a variety of factors that went into the differences between the SR and BT publishing schedule and methods. One such thing was simple: FanPro had already started working on color BT books, and Catalyst continued that work. FanPro had cast the die with SR4 books in B&W, and Catalyst continued with that until it came to a point where they thought moving to [some] full-color titles was something that would be feasible for the line. The BT full-color books often have much lower art costs than a Shadowrun full-color book, for example, because they use many photographs of minis instead of art.

In summary: BattleTech had a head start in pretty much every aspect _because_ IMR was originally formed as a BattleTech support company. But some Shadowrun things didn't materialize or materialized more slowly/differently than expected because Catalyst learned from some mistakes and didn't want to repeat them.

[fistandantilus4....]

No at this point your straight fucking lying ..

He's pushing his own opinion and that's fine but he's lying...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

If you are going to say someone is directly lying, don't state it as fact without proof. Do not make one statement that is black and white (proof/no proof) then include a subjective alternative, and sell them both as correct.

And drop the language. If you cannot post without anger coloring your posts, take a moment. That goes to more than a few.

[Ancient History]

To whoever does eventually take the reins of Shadowrun, I have one request. Please hire a technical writer, someone who actually knows how to tell people how to do/use/make things. We have enough die-hard SR lovers who fluff like there's no tomorrow, but put half of Dumpshock out of commission and write the damn rules properly the first time out.

Just sayin'.

This probably won't make you feel any better, but I have minor in Technical Writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Kid Chameleon]

But we don't want people as freelancers who ask things like:"Can all people see augmented reality?"

You'd rather have the person who just assumes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I mean, we haven't had a good decker/magician for a while....

[Ancient History]

The quote was more humorous, and more disturbing, in the original. I believe it was "Can all augmented people see augmented reality?"

[Stahlseele]

You'd rather have the person who just assumes? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, we don't want those either.
Yes, we are quite picky.
And we are not amused at the current situation at all!

I mean, we haven't had a good decker/magician for a while....

Yeah, going from deckers to hackers and mixing up hermetics and shamans STILL doesn't sit well with me either . .
Yes, i am one of those people who still would prefer to play SR3 instead of 4.

The quote was more humorous, and more disturbing, in the original. I believe it was "Can all augmented people see augmented reality?"

AH, good, such details are what's highly important to me *nods*

[pbangarth]

This probably won't make you feel any better, but I have minor in Technical Writing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Unfortunately, you're not with them anymore and when you were, you probably didn't vette all rules for possible contradictions and errors.

[knasser]

If the person is a better writer and rules designer I'd rather have the, "Can all people see augmented reality?" person design rules and write sections and then have someone who knows the setting and rules better proofread it. Ignoring talent due to setting snobbery just means you might be settling for lesser talent.

A writer for Shadowrun needs to have both talent and a knowledge of the rules and setting. It isn't a case of saying if you have to pick one, then X is preferable to Y. It would be like asking for salt and someone saying, "sure, we don't have sodium, but I'd rather just be given chlorine than just sodium, wouldn't you?" You've got to have both, both are requirements. Poorly written Shadowrun material is very disappointing to me. Well crafted words that get Shadowrun wrong are probably even worse. We don't need a Lone Star cop mounted on a Unicorn because the writer thought - "hey, it's fantasy in a sci-fi setting, right?"

I, and lots of other potential customers, would rightly reject anything that didn't fulfill both requirements. I'm sure you would too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

[Ancient History]

Unfortunately, you're not with them anymore and when you were, you probably didn't vette all rules for possible contradictions and errors.

And made my own share of mistakes, let us not forget.

[Cardul]

We don't need a Lone Star cop mounted on a Unicorn because the writer thought - "hey, it's fantasy in a sci-fi setting, right?"

Of course, if there was a REALLY good reason for the Lone Star Cop to be riding a unicorn, no matter how improbable, and it managed
to come across as "Cool," it would be alright? But not just mixing Lone Star Cop+Unicorn to mix sci-fi and fantasy?

[kanislatrans]

Now a Lone Star cop mounting a unicorn...That ,my friends,is Shadowrun!!.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)