The CGL situation p3 Options

[Stahlseele]

Err... no, sorry, you're thinking of Earthdawn, when the unicorns got all kinds of cracked.

possible, it's been some time since i read the critter books <.<

[Demonseed Elite]

I'm not aware that it was a practice at FASA to partner new writers with veteran writers. What happened in my case was fairly unique: I proposed a full book which actually got added to the release schedule. But since I was a brand-new freelancer, they understandably didn't give me the entire book to write. I agree with that. Instead, they took the full book and divided it among myself, Dave Hyatt, Brian Schoner, Steve Kenson, Davidson Cole and Rob Boyle.

Still, I've always been a huge proponent of the idea of grouping the writers, veteran and new, and letting them brainstorm together, proofread each others' material, and work together to pitch new ideas.

[Penta]

Legal speculation should really stop (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

Um, actually...Trying not to step onto the mods' turf, so I hope they excuse me here...but it's more than 'should'.

It needs to, at least in my opinion. Urgru, I doubt you meant this, but...In case it needs to be said, everybody involved with CGL should probably chat with live, licensed, and practicing attorneys...And absolutely not rely on the words of Dumpshockers, even those who may have credentials in the legal field, or be in training for said credentials, in making decisions in that matter.

Urgru, speaking only from my limited experience as a paralegal in training, my gut says that post veered uncomfortably close to UPL (Unauthorized practice of law), probably without intending to. It's probably not outside the realm of possibility that any freelancer or CGL employee, former or present, could be called to testify in any bankruptcy proceeding or any litigation which may even potentially arise from this mess, or may even be a potential party to any such proceedings. It would be horrible were Dumpshock (or you) put on the hook for anything because people relied, even unconsciously, on that post for anything. I think even Frank Trollman might agree that among his many talents, or among the talents of anyone posting here, a law license valid for practice in every jurisdiction that may be at issue here is not among them.

Anyhow. Yeah. I Am Not A Lawyer. Urgru may not be a lawyer.

Even if he is, he ain't the lawyer of anybody posting here, I would suspect. So, yeah.

Can we not make this into a live example of how most states hate the unauthorized practice of law? Please?

[tweak]

That doesn't explain why part of management spent 12 hours on Friday getting checks ready for freelancers, both those who have been vocal and those who have not. He made his assumption without knowing that fact. This also harms his point that "Extorting the company is the only way a person is going to get paid," since as I said, both freelancers who spoke out and those who did not are going to receive some payment.

This is good stuff. Keep it coming.

[Omenowl]

What I dislike about Frank's post is it assumes someone will immediately pick up the license. Do we know who these investors are? Do they have the money and business plan to begin releasing new books? Let's be honest it is in everyone's interest for CGL to be profitable. The freelancers get paid, CGL has funds to produce new books, the fan's have access to quality material. My guess it is takes at least 75000 dollars to bring a book from inception to print. The return on said investment probably takes 6-12 months. From a business standpoint there is little reason to get into the business unless you love the game especially in today's economy. We know the freelancers are not raking in the bucks.

I don't know the situation with Loren. Maybe he is paying back the money, maybe he is not getting paid until his debt is payed off, maybe he is happily sitting in a foreign country laughing his ass off. Regardless, as a fan all I care about is quality of the books with all those who worked on the project being fairly compensated.

I don't want to see Shadowrun go the way of star frontiers, top secret or a few others. Held by a major company with no incentive of ever producing material again and no one having the funds to license or buy the rights. The only fortunate thing about star frontiers is it actually exists online original rulebook and all, legally. I don't see that happening with Shadowrun. I also would not look forward to seeing shadowrun go to a 5th edition. Hell, it took me 2-3 years from SR4 initial print, and an illegal download to see if I would ever touch Shadowrun 4th edition (I hated the game mechanics of SR1 and SR2 and presumably 3).

Here is my question. If the CGL ship gets righted, the freelancers are paid off, the financial fiasco is corrected would any of the freelancers who left come back?

I am not saying immediately, but rather over the next 12-18 months where you can see the issues have corrected. I know you guys do it more for the love of the game rather than the money because there is not much money to be made for all the hard work you do.

[Grinder]

My eyes! The goggles do nothing!
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Omenowl]

I just found neon pink works on 95% of backgrounds to get attention. I use it a lot in power point presentations, GIS maps and drawings.

[Stahlseele]

would any of the freelancers who left come back?

Improbable at best i guess.

[tweak]

Here is my question. If the CGL ship gets righted, the freelancers are paid off, the financial fiasco is corrected would any of the freelancers who left come back?

Let's hope future books are not in technicolor.

[Cain]

Actually, the core metaplots of the past twenty years and many of the minor ones were in the process of being documented when I stepped down. Unfortunately the project never got prioritized the way it deserved because there was no assistant developer for most of my run as lead developer and I had too much on my hands as it was.

One of my long-term side-projects, to ease newcomers into freelancing, was a comprehensive Shadowrun Primer, or "setting bible", describing not only the fundamentals of the setting as of SR4A, but also presenting sumarily key metaplots of the past, present and future (as SOP I mapped out metaplots over 3-4 years with a view of integrating books/products as closely as possible with the developing storyline hence Ghost Cartels playing off Runner Havens and Corp Enclaves and then Vice following on the heels of the GC shakeup and the now-unlikely campaign following up on Primeira Vaga and the Dream Seed).

I did a similar 30-page brief to convey for new Shadowrun artists just before SR4A. The SR Primer still isn't complete but it's close to 100 pages long and I do intend to wrap it up. Who knows when it might come in useful.

And, of course, Jason is correct about the size of the freelancer pool. From what I've gathered it hasn't been this big in years. There's more new blood than ever. That's not the problem.

As I see it the fundamental issue that the line, and Jason as lead developer, faces is that Shadowrun lives off the depth and continuity of its setting and there has never, until recently, been a "generation gap" in the regular turnover of freelancers and developers. There has always been an "older" generation that by virtue of their experience is intimately familiar with what has been going on in the setting and where things stand, someone besides the developer (who has his hands full) with a solid grasp of the bigger larger picture and it's myriad pieces. These veterans, all with a dozen books to their name, have been there to hold hands, critique, advise, peer-review, mouth-off, and fill in knowledge gaps. That's what I encountered when I joined the ranks of freelancers, and that's how I left things when I stepped down. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons - most of which, I hasten to add, predate Jason coming aboard - that is no longer the case. Those 5-6 people that represented the previous of freelancers (the ones I mentioned previously) simply aren't there (some like Jennifer and Bobby for obvious reasons, others because they left Catalyst, and others yet because they are disenchanted with the direction things are going and feel unacknowledged). Yes, people like Bull, whose contributions date all the way back to the FASA years, are still involved, others like Stephen McQuillan, Mark Edwards, and the Missions authors that "graduated" during the past couple of years have gathered considerable experience in a very short time. That's the way it should be. Unfortunately, IMHO and only IMHO, it doesn't quite balance out the fact that the people who wrote all those books that I mentioned, that could hand over the torch, and ease the learning curve for newbloods, just aren't there to do it any more.

Understandably, this won't be much of an issue to some of you. But as a long time fan and an insider I do view it with some serious concern and reservations.

I'm going to shock a few of you. I agree just about 100% with everything Synner has said.

This "generation gap" is what I was referring to when I said that Lone Star Cops on unicorns could result. Without continuity, there will be a change in the way Shadowrun works, and it may not be to everyone's liking. The freelancer pool may be large, but the number of freelancers who actually know the universe and how things work is dwindling rapidly. ANd like Synner said, there is no Freelancer Shadowrun Bible to guide people in their absence. This does not look good, although I will not speculate as to the exact consequences. I'm content with saying that it doesn;t look good, and us fans should plan accordingly.

Here is my question. If the CGL ship gets righted, the freelancers are paid off, the financial fiasco is corrected would any of the freelancers who left come back?

A more pertinent question is, would the be accepted back? Individual freelancers have individual motivations, but Mr. Hardy sets policy on freelancers. Would *he* accept any of them back?

[Demonseed Elite]

Here is my question. If the CGL ship gets righted, the freelancers are paid off, the financial fiasco is corrected would any of the freelancers who left come back?

It depends. If by "getting the ship righted", Catalyst returns to business as usual, circa 2009, then no. Because my problems with Catalyst occurred before this current mess. Business as usual a year ago was still a shameful, disorganized mess that often left freelancers with the short end of the stick. There is no way in hell I'm going back to work with any organization like that.

If Catalyst became a company that got contracts out to freelancers on a timely basis, paid those freelancers on time (every time), and had open communication between management and freelance staff, then yes, I would. I don't see that as a likely scenario, but I would write for a company like that.

[urgru]

Um, actually...Trying not to step onto the mods' turf, so I hope they excuse me here...but it's more than 'should'.

It needs to, at least in my opinion. Urgru, I doubt you meant this, but...In case it needs to be said, everybody involved with CGL should probably chat with live, licensed, and practicing attorneys...And absolutely not rely on the words of Dumpshockers, even those who may have credentials in the legal field, or be in training for said credentials, in making decisions in that matter.

Urgru, speaking only from my limited experience as a paralegal in training, my gut says that post veered uncomfortably close to UPL (Unauthorized practice of law), probably without intending to. It's probably not outside the realm of possibility that any freelancer or CGL employee, former or present, could be called to testify in any bankruptcy proceeding or any litigation which may even potentially arise from this mess, or may even be a potential party to any such proceedings. It would be horrible were Dumpshock (or you) put on the hook for anything because people relied, even unconsciously, on that post for anything. I think even Frank Trollman might agree that among his many talents, or among the talents of anyone posting here, a law license valid for practice in every jurisdiction that may be at issue here is not among them.

Anyhow. Yeah. I Am Not A Lawyer. Urgru may not be a lawyer.

Even if he is, he ain't the lawyer of anybody posting here, I would suspect. So, yeah.

Can we not make this into a live example of how most states hate the unauthorized practice of law? Please?

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT providing legal advice to anyone, nor do I intend to I've intentionally commented generally (drawing analogy to other situations, noting differences between states that raise uncertainties of law), and I've noted on more than one occasion that people involved need to seek advice from counsel in their jurisdictions of residence who can review relevant documents and correspondence.

My main point is that many folks have thrown about terms like bankruptcy, RICO, veil piercing, and homestead exemption without an understanding of how they function in different states and in different scenarios. It's dangerous, perpetuates impressions with respect to likely outcomes that aren't grounded in legal or factual reality, and should come to an end. No one should rely on ANYTHING they read here when considering their future course of action.

[Patrick Goodman]

Here is my question. If the CGL ship gets righted, the freelancers are paid off, the financial fiasco is corrected would any of the freelancers who left come back?

Not immediately, to be sure, but I would be open to the idea. Jason and I have already had discussions to this end.

[JM Hardy]

[snip]

A more pertinent question is, would the be accepted back? Individual freelancers have individual motivations, but Mr. Hardy sets policy on freelancers. Would *he* accept any of them back?

As I've said before, that would be between me and various freelancers, and does not need to be a matter of public discussion.

Jason H.

[Penta]

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT providing legal advice to anyone, nor do I intend to I've intentionally commented generally (drawing analogy to other situations, noting differences between states that raise uncertainties of law), and I've noted on more than one occasion that people involved need to seek advice from counsel in their jurisdictions of residence who can review relevant documents and correspondence.

My main point is that many folks have thrown about terms like bankruptcy, RICO, veil piercing, and homestead exemption without an understanding of how they function in different states and in different scenarios. It's dangerous, perpetuates impressions with respect to likely outcomes that aren't grounded in legal or factual reality, and should come to an end. No one should rely on ANYTHING they read here when considering their future course of action.

When you put it that way, my concerns are settled, personally. Thanks for the quick reply Urgru.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Grinder]

I just found neon pink works on 95% of backgrounds to get attention. I use it a lot in power point presentations, GIS maps and drawings.

Never doubted that - still it is a cruel color. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Cain]

My main point is that many folks have thrown about terms like bankruptcy, RICO, veil piercing, and homestead exemption without an understanding of how they function in different states and in different scenarios. It's dangerous, perpetuates impressions with respect to likely outcomes that aren't grounded in legal or factual reality, and should come to an end. No one should rely on ANYTHING they read here when considering their future course of action.

Relax, man. No one has thrown about RICO to the best of my recollection. I also don't recall "Homestead exemption" being bandied about. I may be wrong, but I think you're the first one to bring up those laws. Bankruptcy and Veil-Piercing have been mentioned, but not nearly as much as nonpayment; and nonpayment isn't an obtuse legal situation.

As I've said before, that would be between me and various freelancers, and does not need to be a matter of public discussion.

We're not discussing specific freelancers, we're discussing hypotheticals. If *any* of the freelancers involved wanted to come back, would they be welcomed? Individual freelancers will or will not post on their willingness to come back.

You are, of course, free to say that you won't answer even a hypothetical question; but by doing so, you do realize how the rumor mill will take it.

[Dread Moores]

As I've said before, that would be between me and various freelancers, and does not need to be a matter of public discussion.

Jason H.

If only some of the freelancers themselves agreed with that last sentiment.

[Dread Moores]

Edit: Post removed. No need to throw more fuel on the personal conflict fires here, most especially when I'm letting personal off-line issues strain my temper to react to people needlessly. Sorry Cain.

[Stahlseele]

If only some of the freelancers themselves agreed with that last sentiment.

Why should they?
It's their god given right to be of another opinion and to voice that opinion as vocal as they like.

[JM Hardy]

Relax, man. No one has thrown about RICO to the best of my recollection. I also don't recall "Homestead exemption" being bandied about. I may be wrong, but I think you're the first one to bring up those laws. Bankruptcy and Veil-Piercing have been mentioned, but not nearly as much as nonpayment; and nonpayment isn't an obtuse legal situation.


We're not discussing specific freelancers, we're discussing hypotheticals. If *any* of the freelancers involved wanted to come back, would they be welcomed? Individual freelancers will or will not post on their willingness to come back.

You are, of course, free to say that you won't answer even a hypothetical question; but by doing so, you do realize how the rumor mill will take it.

Well then let me address myself directly to the rumor mill. Hey there rumor mill! What's up? Been a busy few weeks for you hasn't it? You must be exhausted! Anyway, I hear you're interested in hearing if I'd be willing--hypothetically--to re-hire freelancers who have recently stopped freelancing for Shadowrun. But the problem with that hypothetical, Mr. Mill, is that it doesn't cover a very broad group of people. So it's tough to craft a broad enough answer that won't be seen by some as commenting in some way on my relationships with those freelancers, which is not something I want to be a matter of public discussion.

What's that? You're asking what makes me think that things I say could be pulled apart, analyzed between the lines, and possibly distorted? I don't know where I came up with that idea, Mr. Mill. Maybe it's my own neuroses talking.

Anyway, how about we go with a statement of policy that covers all potential freelancers: My policy is if that you have an interest in and knowledge of Shadowrun and a willingness to contribute to the game and the universe, I'll listen to what you have to say, and then we will go from there. Hope that helps.

Jason H.

[Omenowl]

It depends. If by "getting the ship righted", Catalyst returns to business as usual, circa 2009, then no. Because my problems with Catalyst occurred before this current mess. Business as usual a year ago was still a shameful, disorganized mess that often left freelancers with the short end of the stick. There is no way in hell I'm going back to work with any organization like that.

If Catalyst became a company that got contracts out to freelancers on a timely basis, paid those freelancers on time (every time), and had open communication between management and freelance staff, then yes, I would. I don't see that as a likely scenario, but I would write for a company like that.

I expect nothing less regardless of the company one works for.

[Dread Moores]

Why should they?
It's their god given right to be of another opinion and to voice that opinion as vocal as they like.

You're absolutely right. I personally don't find my opinions matching up with how it was handled by some. I'm not them, and presumably they made the decision that works best for them. I didn't mean to imply they shouldn't have another opinion. Some of it just feels like it has gone beyond opinion to personal grudge matches being carried out by proxy. But again, that's only opinion as well. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs* i would probably do the same. i have no problem with burning bridges and salting earth after poisoning the well.

[Black Jack Rackh...]

...others like Stephen McQuillan, Mark Edwards, and the Missions authors that "graduated" during the past couple of years have gathered considerable experience in a very short time. That's the way it should be.

And I decided while working on my first big section (Bogota in the War! book) last year, that I wasn't sure if I'd get paid ever. So I held onto it until CGL paid me what they owed me, and here I am, still waiting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

I know that I want to write more Shadowrun. I love the game and some of my contributions have been the talk of the town (Peace Man anyone?) However, as for whether or not I'd write for CGL again, I think I can say it no better than...

It depends. If by "getting the ship righted", Catalyst returns to business as usual, circa 2009, then no. Because my problems with Catalyst occurred before this current mess. Business as usual a year ago was still a shameful, disorganized mess that often left freelancers with the short end of the stick. There is no way in hell I'm going back to work with any organization like that.

If Catalyst became a company that got contracts out to freelancers on a timely basis, paid those freelancers on time (every time), and had open communication between management and freelance staff, then yes, I would. I don't see that as a likely scenario, but I would write for a company like that.

Mark