The CGL situation p3 Options

[Pepsi Jedi]

The standard of proof for murder and the extent which people hide from prosecution, and pay to get off and number of technicality's and such pertaining to murder are also higher.

It's pretty simple to go 'Company took in X amount last quarter. Accused Salary is Y. the totals in the account do not equal X-Y. There for accused is responsible for the difference between X-Y and what's actually there. Especially when it's been admitted in public and there's lines of people waiting to get paid. This isn't Russia in the 80s.

[LurkerOutThere]

Really? Have you successfully tried such a case involving an LLC with a small pool of owners? Or tried any case or even been closely involved personally in a criminal justice proceeding? Admission of mismanagement is not the same as admission of theft young padawan.

[Ol' Scratch]

Isn't the really serious crime the fraud though? I may be misremembering, and it may have been a third party, but I thought the whole thing was being done by labeling some home building contractors as "freelance writers" and paying them with company funds.

[Matsci]

Isn't the really serious crime the fraud though? I may be misremembering, and it may have been a third party, but I thought the whole thing was being done by labeling some home building contractors as "freelance writers" and paying them with company funds.

That's the rumor. We also have a person saying that the house was free of renovations as of last summer.

[Cardul]

Isn't the really serious crime the fraud though? I may be misremembering, and it may have been a third party, but I thought the whole thing was being done by labeling some home building contractors as "freelance writers" and paying them with company funds.

That is a claim that has not been stated anywhere that I know of. Besides, do you think that the Operations Manager
would have cut a check for something more then any freelancer would likely be paid for a given contract?

Thing is, ultimately, we will never know EVERYTHING that was going on. Unless charges are filed, and things
go to court, and the court records remain un-sealed, there is likely no way we will know the exact degrees of
what was going on.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Really? Have you successfully tried such a case involving an LLC with a small pool of owners? Or tried any case or even been closely involved personally in a criminal justice proceeding? Admission of mismanagement is not the same as admission of theft young padawan.

That's a false argument. Are you a judge? Are you a lawyer? Have you passed the bar in the state in question? No. You're a layman same as me.

I'm a guy that has grown up in the US and goes 'If ya took money that wasn't yours.. and spent it, and it was owed to others for work they did ... you stole it."

Doesn't take me trying cases to know an illegal act when I see one. Trying to mire it in word games and such doesn't change the fact that the guy took money he knew full well wasn't his and spent it or hid it. That's not legal. Say 'oh it was company funds" or 'Multiple owners gross" or what ever. He took what wasn't his to take, and spent it. That's not legal. I'm ___Not___ a lawyer. I'm sure one that has passed the Bar in the state would know to call it "Embezzlement" or 'Grand theft" or 'Criminal misappropriation of company funds" or what ever.

My point is. Dude stole thousands of bucks. He should do jail time.

Will he? Probably not. Same and worse happened at Palladium years ago and they're still bitching about it. Only got a small percentage of reimbursement. But trying to play word games and toss up straw men doesn't change the fact that the money's gone and it was in one guy's account.

Supposedly.
(( I am a firm believer in innocent till proven guilty. But going off the information at hand. Dude looks guilty))

[Cergorach]

The LLC is owned, in part, by Coleman. Taking money out of the company is at best contract breach, which isn't a crime. The co owners have chosen not to sue Coleman at this time. There might be issues with taxes, but proving that there was criminal intent is rather difficult, generally the IRS would rather make a deal with you (were you pay the money owed) then see you go to jail.

A company as a legal entity is generally formed to isolate owners from liability, how much liability generally depends on the legal entity and the location where it was registered. The whole issue of not paying suppliers might just end at the company, it might not, I don't know enough about US regulations and laws to make any guess about that.

Keep in mind that what you might consider stealing for one person isn't stealing for another. If you take a Shadowrun book without paying from the game store, it is stealing. If the owner did the same thing, it wouldn't be stealing. If an employee took it, it would depend on what the owners policy is.

@Pepsi Jedi: For someone that is breaking Trademark law, on no less then two large properties, you seem to have a healthy grasp of legalese [/sarcasm]. What your talking about is right and wrong, those aren't exactly legal concepts. A certain Redneck approach of "Let's hang him bro/dad!" isn't exactly helpful, and to be honest comes across as trolling/flaming.

[LurkerOutThere]

That's a false argument. Are you a judge? Are you a lawyer? Have you passed the bar in the state in question? No. You're a layman same as me.

I'm a guy that has grown up in the US and goes 'If ya took money that wasn't yours.. and spent it, and it was owed to others for work they did ... you stole it."

You didn't answer my question, have you personally and directly been involved in a criminal proceeding? How did it turn out for you? Was the accused convicted and did they serve jail time? From your statements I'm going to hazard a guess that the answer to all of these is no. I am not claiming to be a judge or a lawyer and I havn't claimed to be, what I did not do was state the following.

But the original question remains. Dude stole 1,000s or 10,000s from the company. He needs to see the inside of a cell.

You made a black and white unambiguous statement without a shred of proof or first hand knowledge, a statement that frankly is silly.

(( I am a firm believer in innocent till proven guilty. But going off the information at hand. Dude looks guilty))

This statement is not internally consistent nor consistent with the rest of your points.

[Ancient History]

You made a black and white unambiguous statement without a shred of proof or first hand knowledge, a statement that frankly is silly.

This statement is not internally consistent nor consistent with the rest of your points.

I think you might have missed the point where CGL outright stated that there was co-mingling of funds and financial mismanagement by one of the owners. The leaked freelancer letter from Randall Bills confirms it was Loren Coleman. So at this point yes, we can pretty clearly state that Loren took the money. The only serious question is whether that action is going to be treated as criminal, and by who.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Pulled to avoid silly-ness

[Bob Lord of Evil]

Hrm, can't say I agree with that. As I was one of the freelancers who wrote for FASA and then moved to FanPro and then later moved to Catalyst. Honestly, I'm not aware that at any time there was anything resembling a closed freelancer pool.

FASA may have always paid you on time, but they did not always pay me on time. And I know I was not the only one. That said, I will agree there a lot of great freelancers at FASA. When FASA ended and FanPro took over, we lost a lot of those freelancers. Not because there was anything keeping them from joining FanPro, as far as I can tell, but because most them didn't want to bother. I know I spoke to a freelancer I had great respect for during the FASA time who told me he wasn't going to bother to keep writing for FanPro because of non-payment issues he had with FASA.

It is pretty amazing what you can overhear in a buffet line at GTS.

Ultimately though, it was their choice and right (the beauty of being the boss).

[urgru]

Will he? Probably not. Same and worse happened at Palladium years ago . . .

The Palladium incident involved an employee of a sole proprietorship. Not a valid comparison.

[Prime Mover]

Nice one. I thought Catalyst Game Labs was a separate entity. Thanks for clearing that up. Oh, yeah, I remember the Holostreet t-shirts at GEN CON.

As of Vice on the credits page Holostreets is still listed with a website addy and description as an online subscription service. " Heres to the dreamers!"

[darthmord]

The key sentence here is "not to my knowledge." Jennifer has not been a part of discussions between Bobby and myself. It comes down to this--I was willing to publish Bobby's stuff. Bobby, as he has stated, does not believe he would ever be paid for things published by Catalyst. From his perspective, he would rather hold on to his work rather then let it go for what he believes would be no compensation. Further, he has stated he believes there will be opportunities to publish some works elsewhere and be compensated for them. He has every right in the world to do what he believes is best for his work and to feel comfortable about any business relationships he is in.

If someone does not want their work to be published, I cannot force them to publish it.

Jason H.

I guess the real question would be... "If you could approach him with a payment-in-full check for all his already created content, would you?"

Along with that would be another question... "Would AH accept it?"

My sincerest hope is that both questions have an answer of "Yes!".

[Cergorach]

I guess the real question would be... "If you could approach him with a payment-in-full check for all his already created content, would you?"

Along with that would be another question... "Would AH accept it?"

My sincerest hope is that both questions have an answer of "Yes!".

No, the real question is "When are folks going to drop that specific issue?" Jason has made it absolutely clear that he won't discuss that in a public forum, and that it is something between him and specific freelancers. *points at over sized troll holding a rather bloody baseball bat* You might want to discuss it with Mr. Crusher over there...

Is this a case of stubbornness or a case of illiteracy?

My sincerest hope is that both questions have an answer of "Yes!".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ShimmerGeek]

Uhm... Okay...

I've not looked at this whole thing since a day or two after the whole thing started.


Can anyone fill me in on what has happened since then? :/

Thanks

[otakusensei]

Uhm... Okay...

I've not looked at this whole thing since a day or two after the whole thing started.


Can anyone fill me in on what has happened since then? :/

Thanks

Sorry dude, you gotta go back and read up like everyone else. I don't know how much time I've sunk into it already.

Short answer though; the money is still gone, freelancers are still largely unpaid and there are still less titles available from CGL than when this started. Infer from that what you will and vocally state your opinion to be championed or derided by the various factions.

It's fun.

[darthmord]

No, the real question is "When are folks going to drop that specific issue?" Jason has made it absolutely clear that he won't discuss that in a public forum, and that it is something between him and specific freelancers. *points at over sized troll holding a rather bloody baseball bat* You might want to discuss it with Mr. Crusher over there...

Is this a case of stubbornness or a case of illiteracy?

My sincerest hope is that both questions have an answer of "Yes!".

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Lose the snarky-ass attitude. Thanks.

My quote was from where I had last read the thread, almost 3 pages back (dating to early Friday of last week). I was merely getting caught up. If you have a problem with that, I suggest learning to deal with the fact that not everyone has a constant RSS feed into their brains. It's only 2010, not 2072.

Besides, the best way for my post you quoted to be answered would be to see a street date for such (along with credits) so I could go to my local gaming shop & pre-order.

The ideal situation as far as I'm concerned would be all people's outstanding debts be paid, their copyrights be respected, and we all get back to gaming with products made by the quality authors & contributors we've come to enjoy.

But hey, since you asked so nicely, I'll just shut the hell up and not talk again. I hope that is kosher with you since apparently my posting needs to be run by you first. Would have been nice to know beforehand.

[Black Jack Rackh...]

Short answer though; the money is still gone, freelancers are still largely unpaid and there are still less titles available from CGL than when this started. Infer from that what you will and vocally state your opinion to be championed or derided by the various factions.

It's fun.

QFT

Mark (who's probably spent as much time as everyone else reading this but just can't bring himself to get involved in a flame war)

[LurkerOutThere]

Well to be technically accurate there is a change in that some of the freelancers are getting checks sent out to them. Educated guess is it's those withholding copyright on stuff "ready to ship".

[Patrick Goodman]

Well to be technically accurate there is a change in that some of the freelancers are getting checks sent out to them. Educated guess is it's those withholding copyright on stuff "ready to ship".

Or already shipped and now behind a cease-and-desist, like RW. Not a bad guess, I'd wager, though I'm not possessed of any knowledge to prove or disprove it.

[Cain]

Well to be technically accurate there is a change in that some of the freelancers are getting checks sent out to them. Educated guess is it's those withholding copyright on stuff "ready to ship".

Apparently not. Vice and Midnight are reportedly not included on the list of products to be paid off, and they're ready to ship. There was an accusation made, I can't recall by who, that the payments are going out to those freelancers who showed the most loyalty to the party line, but that's unconfirmed. Truth is, only Mr. Bills and Mr. Coleman know why people are getting paid; Jason Hardy has stated in this thread that he's not responsible for freelancer payment.

[LurkerOutThere]

Except Tiger Eyes herself stated she was one of those folks that got a partial payment presumably for vice and midnight, (although only she could answer to what). There was an accusation made: by you that was pretty much immediately refuted, stay classy by the way.

[knasser]

Apparently not. Vice and Midnight are reportedly not included on the list of products to be paid off, and they're ready to ship. There was an accusation made, I can't recall by who, that the payments are going out to those freelancers who showed the most loyalty to the party line, but that's unconfirmed. Truth is, only Mr. Bills and Mr. Coleman know why people are getting paid; Jason Hardy has stated in this thread that he's not responsible for freelancer payment.

I'm very glad I bought both of those as PDFs when they came out.

K.

[augmentin]

First, the issue of credibility: I became a user this morning (username pun intended), though have been a consumer of Dumpshock since the Supplemental, Herkimer's Lair, and Plastic Warriors and a player of SR since '94. To further highlight my geek cred, Shadowrun influenced my decision to not only join the navy hospital corps, but volunteer to serve in the marine corps infantry in '98.

Next, capability: I have been a small business owner since '06 and have dealt with financial struggles somewhat similar to what Mr. Coleman and IMR/CGL management are alleged to have. Throughout that painful process I never allowed an employee, contractor, or vendor go unpaid.

The current problem, based solely on a reading of the official press release, seems to be that the SR line has been consistently managed by those with great technical and artistic skills, but limited business management ability. There are, obviously, much worse allegations that have been made of IMR/CGL management, but since I don't know any of the involved individuals personally or professionally, I would like to withhold judgement.

How can a dedicated fan base address this challenge? I would suggest that "we" submit a bid for the license.

How would that work? We can incorporate (probably as an LLC), in a tax-friendly state (Delaware, for example). There are a variety of virtual CFO services that could be contracted to address the business management. They are not cheap, but much less expensive than the problems described in IMR/CGL's press release. We would need to identify (1) what it would cost to lease the license, (2) what amounts are owed to the freelancer community, and (3) how much working capital would be required to get started? Divide that amount into $100 increments and sell shares for $100 per piece. For example, say the Topps license + outstanding CGL debts + required working capital adds up to $1M US. That would amount to 10,000 shares of Shadowrun Fanboys, LLC for sale. Surely there are at least 10,000 fans of SR who would be willing to pay $100 for an ownership stake. Those with the means and desire could invest much more. This would ensure both the continuity of the SR line and that fan interests are served.

Please understand I am not advocating the demise of IMR/CGL. I am suggesting what I believe would be a unique business strategy in the RPG industry. It's taking the employee-owned model to a new level by creating a consumer-owned company. Now, if IMR/CGL retains the license, I propose that the company should be dissolved and all monies returned to the shareholders. Again, the intention is not to support or harm IMR/CGL, just to ensure the continuity of the SR line in an innovative way.

There are many potential hazards to consumer ownership. Very quickly a board of directors would need to be voted in who would then select a management team. I believe this could be done very efficiently. As has been pointed out on these boards, there is no shortage of SR fans who would contribute to the game they love. The management team should be very lean. The more money that can be saved in administration, the more that can be spent on (1) R&D to improve the product - in Shadowrun's case writers, artists, and layout, (2) production quality - i.e. color, hardcover, DRM-free PDFs, and (3) dividends. The potential for dividends is what makes the proposal workable.

I believe there is great potential in subscription based services for SR. One potential example, for $x/month access to all of the sourcebook PDFs online. Another potential example is hosted virtual tabletops. The intention here is to enhance, not replace the richness of the face to face PnP system. The fact is many GMs already host virtual games and I believe many of them would pay for a subscription to better and more easily facilitate those games. Please don't let this suggestion derail the discussion into the pros and cons of PnP-only systems. It's just a product concept within the larger scope of a consumer-owned company leasing the SR license from Topps.

That last point that needs to be addressed is mission statement/statement of company values. While these would need to be formally stated by a board of directors, at least a working concept needs to exist for potential shareholders to buy into. So:

Mission Statement:
Shadowrun Fanboys, LLC exists to produce quality cyberpunk urban fantasy roleplaying games and fiction in an ethical and profitable manner while creating value for customers, contractors, employees, and shareholders.

Short-Term Goals: to raise enough capital to lease the SR license, pay off all existing debts owed by previous SR license holders, hire a development/writing/art/layout team with significant previous SR experience, and to produce 3-5 future books. The keys here are money and previous SR contributors.

The key benefits of this are:
1) perpetual continuity of the SR line
2) all previous and future contributors are paid
3) the ability to raise capital for future projects (I've already proposed two) by selling additional shares
3) shareholders should see a return on their investment (though, granted, I'm not sure how quickly)

Now, what if I'm a con artist scumbag looking to get a million bucks from gullible SR fans, flee the country, and retire someplace warm? I don't know how to address that. We would need someone trusted within the SR community to take leadership and to add credibility to this venture.

Lastly, it needs to be restated that I am not advocating for or against the demise of IMR/GCL. This is a merely a concept, maybe not even a good one. As previously stated, if it doesn't pan out, all invested monies should be returned to the shareholders and the company dissolved. To maintain that goal, the initial leadership team would need to invest hours of time without pay. I would propose that they should receive discounted shares as compensation, but there are many other ways to handle this.

So, how about it? I've presented the concept proposal. Anyone could take it and run with it from here. Thoughts?
(If this is actually a viable option, we should probably take the discussion off of public forums.)