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[Dumori]

I know this is old but bar constant effecting spells/powers, cyber and bio. What is capped by the augmented maximums? Do drug cap out? Same with adrenalin glands or the +1 to all physical from the berserker negative quality?

[Malachi]

Unless it uses the word "bonus" I have been capping any attribute enhancements.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, the Argument about Augmented Maximum again, an all time favourite since SR4^^

[AngelisStorm]

Everything. Spirit possession used to be an exception, but the new FAQ changed that (if you accept the new one).

[Rotbart van Dain...]

What is capped by the augmented maximums?

For attributes? Pretty much everything.

That's the whole point.

[Draco18s]

Ah, the Argument about Augmented Maximum again, an all time favourite since SR4^^

See thread title: Argumented maximums.

[knasser]

Pretty much everything is capped by them. The two exceptions to this were living beings possessed by spirits and cyberlimbs were at one point a grey area. As of a FAQ released last week, possessed living beings are capped (though a FAQ is not quite an errata and the book still has it uncapped for now as did the old FAQ). Cyberlimbs can go beyond augmented maximums under the rules for redlining in Augmentation. These rules are optional but I recommend them as a GM for the pleasure of seeing players hospitalize their own characters.

Inhabitation still allows augmented maximums to be exceeded, though it's not technically exceeding the attributes and of course is rather permanent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Use of the Shapechange spell allows exceeding of augmented maximums, though it's a rather perverse way of achieving it.

K.

[Stahlseele]

See thread title: Argumented maximums.

that was the whole reason for my posting ^^

[sn0mm1s]

Pretty much everything is capped by them. The two exceptions to this were living beings possessed by spirits and cyberlimbs were at one point a grey area. As of a FAQ released last week, possessed living beings are capped (though a FAQ is not quite an errata and the book still has it uncapped for now as did the old FAQ). Cyberlimbs can go beyond augmented maximums under the rules for redlining in Augmentation. These rules are optional but I recommend them as a GM for the pleasure of seeing players hospitalize their own characters.

Inhabitation still allows augmented maximums to be exceeded, though it's not technically exceeding the attributes and of course is rather permanent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Use of the Shapechange spell allows exceeding of augmented maximums, though it's a rather perverse way of achieving it.

K.

I guess you could argue that only physical attributes are capped (not mental or special) with possession since the FAQ specifically mentions physical but not the others. Plus it would be a little strange for a spirit to possess someone but be stupid and unable to use Magic.

I am not sure if Magic has a listed augmented maximum... only natural maximum. There might be something in the Initiation section of the SR4A or SM that limits your Magic but I don't remember off the top of my head. It wouldn't make much sense if it was restricted, otherwise things like Spirit Pact and the Infected's ability to temporarily raise their Magic would be pretty lackluster.

Essence can be gained through Energy/Essence Drain but it is unclear what your augmented maximum would be (I think Infected can only have an 11 or 12 rating so that would probably be augmented maximum). However, it is very difficult for a non-infected player to get these abilities.

Milspec armor can help you go above your maximum augmented Str.

As noted by Knasser, Shapechange would appear to let you go above your augmented maximums.

I can't think of anything else.

[Dakka Dakka]

I guess you could argue that only physical attributes are capped (not mental or special) with possession since the FAQ specifically mentions physical but not the others. Plus it would be a little strange for a spirit to possess someone but be stupid and unable to use Magic.

That is because only the physical attributes are enhanced at all, the others are replaced.

I am not sure if Magic has a listed augmented maximum... only natural maximum. There might be something in the Initiation section of the SR4A or SM that limits your Magic but I don't remember off the top of my head. It wouldn't make much sense if it was restricted, otherwise things like Spirit Pact and the Infected's ability to temporarily raise their Magic would be pretty lackluster.

The Natural Maximum for magic is Round Down(6-Essence Loss+Initiation Grade). Also there is not device or power that increases the magic attribute. There are only ways to receive a bonus to it (Foci, domains etc.)

Essence can be gained through Energy/Essence Drain but it is unclear what your augmented maximum would be (I think Infected can only have an 11 or 12 rating so that would probably be augmented maximum). However, it is very difficult for a non-infected player to get these abilities.

A critter can only increase its Essence to twice its natural maximum.

Attribute modifiers granted by Energy Drain are limited to 1.5 times the draining entity’s Magic rating (in the case of spirits, their Force when initially summoned.)

As noted by Knasser, Shapechange would appear to let you go above your augmented maximums.

Actually it doesn't but the target of the spell becomes a new entity with natural attributes equal to the base creature's physical attributes+hits of the spellcasting.

[X-Kalibur]

So if I shapechange into a rat, but cast the spell at force 6, and presumably get say... 5 hits, I am now a rat with 6s across the physical realm. I think that just bypassed the augmented maximum for that creature.

[Dakka Dakka]

exactly. You would however have to have an augmented BOD of 3 or less.

[X-Kalibur]

exactly. You would however have to have an augmented BOD of 3 or less.

As a mage you must pick a creature whose base BOD is within 2 points of your own. Once you shift, however, your BOD score becomes the creatures base + hits. When you talk about a creature with low bod (1) it is easy to get a large number of hits and actually go past the augmented maximum for that creature. The rules do not state that those hits are capped in any way, shape, or form. (it's magic!)

[Stahlseele]

hits are capped by force of spell.
only if you're using edge you can go over i think.

[sn0mm1s]

That is because only the physical attributes are enhanced at all, the others are replaced.

The Natural Maximum for magic is Round Down(6-Essence Loss+Initiation Grade). Also there is not device or power that increases the magic attribute. There are only ways to receive a bonus to it (Foci, domains etc.)




Actually it doesn't but the target of the spell becomes a new entity with natural attributes equal to the base creature's physical attributes+hits of the spellcasting.

Magic Pact pg. 108 in Street Magic increases the Magic attribute temporarily.

Also, Infected can spend Essence to boost their Magic Attribute pg 77 Runner's Companion.

[X-Kalibur]

hits are capped by force of spell.
only if you're using edge you can go over i think.

I meant aside from force capping the hits, that is.

[Muspellsheimr]

Pretty much everything is capped by them. The two exceptions to this were living beings possessed by spirits and cyberlimbs were at one point a grey area. As of a FAQ released last week, possessed living beings are capped (though a FAQ is not quite an errata and the book still has it uncapped for now as did the old FAQ). Cyberlimbs can go beyond augmented maximums under the rules for redlining in Augmentation. These rules are optional but I recommend them as a GM for the pleasure of seeing players hospitalize their own characters.

No. The Rules as Written state that being possessed increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirit's Force. They do not state this is an exception to the Augmented Maximum rule, & so, Rules as Written, it is not. The fact that this is one of the things the FAQ actually got right is irrelevant, as the document is a piece of shit.

I guess you could argue that only physical attributes are capped (not mental or special) with possession since the FAQ specifically mentions physical but not the others. Plus it would be a little strange for a spirit to possess someone but be stupid and unable to use Magic.

Possession does not modify the vessels mental attributes, and so is not subject to augmented maximums.

As to what is affected by augmented maximums - everything that increases a Physical or Mental attribute (instead of providing bonus dice to tests; Special attributes are, if I recall correctly, not subject to the rule), that is not specifically listed as an exception.

As for what are noted as exceptions, off the top of my head, I can think of two. Redlining cyberlimbs, & the Strength Upgrade for military armor.


Edit:
@Dakka Dakka
Essence Drain & Energy Drain are two similar, but separate powers. The 1.5x limiter on Energy Drain does not affect Essence Drain, and Essence Drain can indeed increase the Magic attribute.

Edit:
I just double-checked Shapechange, & it does not augment attributes, it increases the base rating of the creature you changed into. It does not allow you to exceed the creature's natural maximum, but due to the phrasing, this can easily be mistaken. It, unfortunately, also does not explain how to obtain the creatures natural maximums (which, if you know how [every base critter attribute is listed as a 3 on the 1-6 scale, so a 4 would be 2-7], is easy enough to do, with the exception of natural maximums of 4 or less, as they all will have a listed value of 1).

I would also like to point out that, Rules as Written, the Shapechange spell allows you assume the form of a creature whose base Body is 2 points greater or less than your own, not a creature whose base Body is up to 2 points greater or less than your own.

[Emy]

I would also like to point out that, Rules as Written, the Shapechange spell allows you assume the form of a creature whose base Body is 2 points greater or less than your own, not a creature whose base Body is up to 2 points greater or less than your own.

Ahahahaha. That's terrible. You can only change into something with body+2 or body-2. You can't, for example, change into your evil twin brother, who is nearly identical to yourself except for the scars across his face.

Excellent job editing, CGL.

[Muspellsheimr]

Not only that, but it has been around through every printing of Shadowrun 4, and I have specifically called attention to it on the forums multiple times sense at least the 4th printing.

[Dakka Dakka]

As a mage you must pick a creature whose base BOD is within 2 points of your own. Once you shift, however, your BOD score becomes the creatures base + hits. When you talk about a creature with low bod (1) it is easy to get a large number of hits and actually go past the augmented maximum for that creature. The rules do not state that those hits are capped in any way, shape, or form. (it's magic!)

That's what I meant, before casting the mage has to have a BOD of 3 or less exactly 3 by RAW, whether natural or augmented, to be able to assume the form of a creature with BOD 1.

No. The Rules as Written state that being possessed increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirit's Force. They do not state this is an exception to the Augmented Maximum rule, & so, Rules as Written, it is not. The fact that this is one of the things the FAQ actually got right is irrelevant, as the document is a piece of shit.

The important point about possession however is IMHO that the target of possession ceases to exist and it and the spirit are merged to a new entity. This entity has natural physical attributes equal to augmented attribute of the vessel+Force.

Essence Drain & Energy Drain are two similar, but separate powers. The 1.5x limiter on Energy Drain does not affect Essence Drain, and Essence Drain can indeed increase the Magic attribute.

I know that they are separate powewrs, but sn0mm1s wrote that the powers' maxima were not clear, so I provided the quotes saying otherwise.

I just double-checked Shapechange, & it does not augment attributes, it increases the base rating of the creature you changed into. It does not allow you to exceed the creature's natural maximum, but due to the phrasing, this can easily be mistaken. It, unfortunately, also does not explain how to obtain the creatures natural maximums (which, if you know how [every base critter attribute is listed as a 3 on the 1-6 scale, so a 4 would be 2-7], is easy enough to do, with the exception of natural maximums of 4 or less, as they all will have a listed value of 1).

This is just speculation based on the assumption that between the natural minimum and the maximum should be a difference of 5. There is no basis for that assumption. The BBB only tells us that you can increase or decrease the attributes by up to 3 (SR4A p. 292). It does not say if this maximum follows the same rules as augmentent maxima for metahumans. Even if this is the case, the creature with a normal BOD of 1 would have an augmented maximum of 6[(1+3)*1.5=6]

I would also like to point out that, Rules as Written, the Shapechange spell allows you assume the form of a creature whose base Body is 2 points greater or less than your own, not a creature whose base Body is up to 2 points greater or less than your own.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif) I must have always overread that.

[Muspellsheimr]

The important point about possession however is IMHO that the target of possession ceases to exist and it and the spirit are merged to a new entity. This entity has natural physical attributes equal to augmented attribute of the vessel+Force.

No, actually. The target of the possession very much still exists, but is usually in a suspended mental state. The spirit inhabiting the body (not to be confused with the Inhabitation power) also does not cease to exist or similar.

Possession does not "create a new entity"; the possessing spirit & vessel are treated as a "combined entity" (think gestalt).

This entity does not "possess physical attributes equal to that of the vessel + the spirit's Force. The possession increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirits Force.

This is just speculation based on the assumption that between the natural minimum and the maximum should be a difference of 5. There is no basis for that assumption. The BBB only tells us that you can increase or decrease the attributes by up to 3 (SR4A p. 292). It does not say if this maximum follows the same rules as augmentent maxima for metahumans. Even if this is the case, the creature with a normal BOD of 1 would have an augmented maximum of 6[(1+3)*1.5=6]

As I said, it is not clearly explained in the rules. But in every example actually given (most notably the Infected), this is the case. The single exception to the 1-6 spread are a few of the shifters, of which I continue to believe was a mistake/typo, and as the (supposedly completed) errata for Runner's Companion still has yet to be released, it is a reasonable assumption (but not technically RAW, yet).

[Patrick the Gnom...]

No. The Rules as Written state that being possessed increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirit's Force. They do not state this is an exception to the Augmented Maximum rule, & so, Rules as Written, it is not. The fact that this is one of the things the FAQ actually got right is irrelevant, as the document is a piece of shit.

If you can tell me why your opinion should have more weight than the official stance of the developers as posted on their website then I might consider your opinion that "the document is a piece of shit." Until then, I will continue using the rules as they are written and clarified in the FAQ and have my possession spirits cap their physical attributes at augmented maximums. You may house rule however you wish.

[Muspellsheimr]

1. The purpose of an FAQ is to clarify, not change, rulings.
2. The authors of said FAQ have specifically stated that the FAQ is not meant to alter the Rules as Written
3. The published FAQ does indeed change the rules of the book in multiple instances.
4. The published FAQ is not Errata.

The FAQ is not valid in a rules debate, as in numerous instances, it directly contradicts the Rules as Written, of which it does not have the authority to support.

In this particular instance, it is irrelevant, as the FAQ does not contradict the Rules as Written. In such instances, there is no need to bring up the FAQ. In the other instances, the FAQ is bullshit. Thus, the FAQ, as far as rules debates are concerned, is bullshit.

[Dakka Dakka]

No, actually. The target of the possession very much still exists, but is usually in a suspended mental state. The spirit inhabiting the body (not to be confused with the Inhabitation power) also does not cease to exist or similar.

Possession does not "create a new entity"; the possessing spirit & vessel are treated as a "combined entity" (think gestalt).

Actually for the duration of the possession a new entity is created:

If the test succeeds, the possession takes hold: the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration.

This entity must be separate from both the vessel and the (astral) spirit, since it is dual-natured and neither of the combined entities are

This entity does not "possess physical attributes equal to that of the vessel + the spirit's Force. The possession increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirits Force.

True, but since the new entity ceases to be metahuman, all bets are off what its natural or augmented maxima are.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

1. The purpose of an FAQ is to clarify, not change, rulings.
2. The authors of said FAQ have specifically stated that the FAQ is not meant to alter the Rules as Written
3. The published FAQ does indeed change the rules of the book in multiple instances.
4. The published FAQ is not Errata.

The FAQ is not valid in a rules debate, as in numerous instances, it directly contradicts the Rules as Written, of which it does not have the authority to support.

In this particular instance, it is irrelevant, as the FAQ does not contradict the Rules as Written. In such instances, there is no need to bring up the FAQ. In the other instances, the FAQ is bullshit. Thus, the FAQ, as far as rules debates are concerned, is bullshit.

Where does the FAQ contradict the rules as they are written. In my reading of it it clarified portions of the rules that seemed unclear, exactly what a FAQ is supposed to do. In a rules debate about which interpretation of the rules should be used by default the FAQ is a relevant document as it clarifies the wording of portions of the rules which may be misinterpreted. In a debate where such a misinterpretation is the issue, the FAQ is relevant.

Also, sorry, I know the FAQ isn't particularly relevant in this debate except for the purposes of ending it in agreement with your position, I just couldn't let that statement pass without arguing (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)