I know this is old but bar constant effecting spells/powers, cyber and bio. What is capped by the augmented maximums? Do drug cap out? Same with adrenalin glands or the +1 to all physical from the berserker negative quality?

Unless it uses the word "bonus" I have been capping any attribute enhancements.

Ah, the Argument about Augmented Maximum again, an all time favourite since SR4^^

Everything. Spirit possession used to be an exception, but the new FAQ changed that (if you accept the new one).

For attributes? Pretty much everything.

That's the whole point.

See thread title: Argumented maximums.

Pretty much everything is capped by them. The two exceptions to this were living beings possessed by spirits and cyberlimbs were at one point a grey area. As of a FAQ released last week, possessed living beings are capped (though a FAQ is not quite an errata and the book still has it uncapped for now as did the old FAQ). Cyberlimbs can go beyond augmented maximums under the rules for redlining in Augmentation. These rules are optional but I recommend them as a GM for the pleasure of seeing players hospitalize their own characters.

Inhabitation still allows augmented maximums to be exceeded, though it's not technically exceeding the attributes and of course is rather permanent.

Use of the Shapechange spell allows exceeding of augmented maximums, though it's a rather perverse way of achieving it.

K.

that was the whole reason for my posting ^^

I guess you could argue that only physical attributes are capped (not mental or special) with possession since the FAQ specifically mentions physical but not the others. Plus it would be a little strange for a spirit to possess someone but be stupid and unable to use Magic.

I am not sure if Magic has a listed augmented maximum... only natural maximum. There might be something in the Initiation section of the SR4A or SM that limits your Magic but I don't remember off the top of my head. It wouldn't make much sense if it was restricted, otherwise things like Spirit Pact and the Infected's ability to temporarily raise their Magic would be pretty lackluster.

Essence can be gained through Energy/Essence Drain but it is unclear what your augmented maximum would be (I think Infected can only have an 11 or 12 rating so that would probably be augmented maximum). However, it is very difficult for a non-infected player to get these abilities.

Milspec armor can help you go above your maximum augmented Str.

As noted by Knasser, Shapechange would appear to let you go above your augmented maximums.

I can't think of anything else.

That is because only the physical attributes are enhanced at all, the others are replaced.

The Natural Maximum for magic is Round Down(6-Essence Loss+Initiation Grade). Also there is not device or power that increases the magic attribute. There are only ways to receive a bonus to it (Foci, domains etc.)




Actually it doesn't but the target of the spell becomes a new entity with natural attributes equal to the base creature's physical attributes+hits of the spellcasting.

So if I shapechange into a rat, but cast the spell at force 6, and presumably get say... 5 hits, I am now a rat with 6s across the physical realm. I think that just bypassed the augmented maximum for that creature.

exactly. You would however have to have an augmented BOD of 3 or less.

As a mage you must pick a creature whose base BOD is within 2 points of your own. Once you shift, however, your BOD score becomes the creatures base + hits. When you talk about a creature with low bod (1) it is easy to get a large number of hits and actually go past the augmented maximum for that creature. The rules do not state that those hits are capped in any way, shape, or form. (it's magic!)

hits are capped by force of spell.
only if you're using edge you can go over i think.

Magic Pact pg. 108 in Street Magic increases the Magic attribute temporarily.

Also, Infected can spend Essence to boost their Magic Attribute pg 77 Runner's Companion.

I meant aside from force capping the hits, that is.

No. The Rules as Written state that being possessed increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirit's Force. They do not state this is an exception to the Augmented Maximum rule, & so, Rules as Written, it is not. The fact that this is one of the things the FAQ actually got right is irrelevant, as the document is a piece of shit.

Possession does not modify the vessels mental attributes, and so is not subject to augmented maximums.

As to what is affected by augmented maximums - everything that increases a Physical or Mental attribute (instead of providing bonus dice to tests; Special attributes are, if I recall correctly, not subject to the rule), that is not specifically listed as an exception.

As for what are noted as exceptions, off the top of my head, I can think of two. Redlining cyberlimbs, & the Strength Upgrade for military armor.


Edit:
@Dakka Dakka
Essence Drain & Energy Drain are two similar, but separate powers. The 1.5x limiter on Energy Drain does not affect Essence Drain, and Essence Drain can indeed increase the Magic attribute.

Edit:
I just double-checked Shapechange, & it does not augment attributes, it increases the base rating of the creature you changed into. It does not allow you to exceed the creature's natural maximum, but due to the phrasing, this can easily be mistaken. It, unfortunately, also does not explain how to obtain the creatures natural maximums (which, if you know how [every base critter attribute is listed as a 3 on the 1-6 scale, so a 4 would be 2-7], is easy enough to do, with the exception of natural maximums of 4 or less, as they all will have a listed value of 1).

I would also like to point out that, Rules as Written, the Shapechange spell allows you assume the form of a creature whose base Body is 2 points greater or less than your own, not a creature whose base Body is up to 2 points greater or less than your own.

Ahahahaha. That's terrible. You can only change into something with body+2 or body-2. You can't, for example, change into your evil twin brother, who is nearly identical to yourself except for the scars across his face.

Excellent job editing, CGL.

Not only that, but it has been around through every printing of Shadowrun 4, and I have specifically called attention to it on the forums multiple times sense at least the 4th printing.

That's what I meant, before casting the mage has to have a BOD of 3 or less exactly 3 by RAW, whether natural or augmented, to be able to assume the form of a creature with BOD 1.

The important point about possession however is IMHO that the target of possession ceases to exist and it and the spirit are merged to a new entity. This entity has natural physical attributes equal to augmented attribute of the vessel+Force.

I know that they are separate powewrs, but sn0mm1s wrote that the powers' maxima were not clear, so I provided the quotes saying otherwise.

This is just speculation based on the assumption that between the natural minimum and the maximum should be a difference of 5. There is no basis for that assumption. The BBB only tells us that you can increase or decrease the attributes by up to 3 (SR4A p. 292). It does not say if this maximum follows the same rules as augmentent maxima for metahumans. Even if this is the case, the creature with a normal BOD of 1 would have an augmented maximum of 6[(1+3)*1.5=6]

I must have always overread that.

No, actually. The target of the possession very much still exists, but is usually in a suspended mental state. The spirit inhabiting the body (not to be confused with the Inhabitation power) also does not cease to exist or similar.

Possession does not "create a new entity"; the possessing spirit & vessel are treated as a "combined entity" (think gestalt).

This entity does not "possess physical attributes equal to that of the vessel + the spirit's Force. The possession increases the vessels physical attributes by the spirits Force.


As I said, it is not clearly explained in the rules. But in every example actually given (most notably the Infected), this is the case. The single exception to the 1-6 spread are a few of the shifters, of which I continue to believe was a mistake/typo, and as the (supposedly completed) errata for Runner's Companion still has yet to be released, it is a reasonable assumption (but not technically RAW, yet).

If you can tell me why your opinion should have more weight than the official stance of the developers as posted on their website then I might consider your opinion that "the document is a piece of shit." Until then, I will continue using the rules as they are written and clarified in the FAQ and have my possession spirits cap their physical attributes at augmented maximums. You may house rule however you wish.

1. The purpose of an FAQ is to clarify, not change, rulings.
2. The authors of said FAQ have specifically stated that the FAQ is not meant to alter the Rules as Written
3. The published FAQ does indeed change the rules of the book in multiple instances.
4. The published FAQ is not Errata.

The FAQ is not valid in a rules debate, as in numerous instances, it directly contradicts the Rules as Written, of which it does not have the authority to support.

In this particular instance, it is irrelevant, as the FAQ does not contradict the Rules as Written. In such instances, there is no need to bring up the FAQ. In the other instances, the FAQ is bullshit. Thus, the FAQ, as far as rules debates are concerned, is bullshit.

Actually for the duration of the possession a new entity is created:This entity must be separate from both the vessel and the (astral) spirit, since it is dual-natured and neither of the combined entities are

True, but since the new entity ceases to be metahuman, all bets are off what its natural or augmented maxima are.

Where does the FAQ contradict the rules as they are written. In my reading of it it clarified portions of the rules that seemed unclear, exactly what a FAQ is supposed to do. In a rules debate about which interpretation of the rules should be used by default the FAQ is a relevant document as it clarifies the wording of portions of the rules which may be misinterpreted. In a debate where such a misinterpretation is the issue, the FAQ is relevant.

Also, sorry, I know the FAQ isn't particularly relevant in this debate except for the purposes of ending it in agreement with your position, I just couldn't let that statement pass without arguing

Does it change the rating of the skill? Does it change the rating of the attribute? No - then it is a Dice Pool Modifier.

There are other more minor inconsistencies I am sure others can point out, if you want. I am done with your "FAQ is RAW!" bullshit.

Given that there are published stats for possessed characters which exceed the racial augmented maximums, I think its safe to say that possession allows those maximums to be exceeded.

You might want to format that differently.
Tables don't carry over well when copied.

Yeah, I saw that, but it conveys the message clearly. Tab keys plus web forms don't mix, and I'm not gonna waste time coding a table or figuring out how many times I need to hit the space bar for something that already shows the point.

lazy ass *snickers*

While you're at it, you might also want to quote the numerous other blatantly wrong stats in Ghost Cartels (aka the ones that don't actually follow the rules - there are more than a couple).

Because I don't want to repeat my statements or cause more flaminess let me just say that for all arguments pertaining to the capabilities of possession spirits, please refer to the possession spirit tactical manual post. Here's a link to the part of the thread dealing with this issue in particular.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...0195&st=200

As for using the FAQ as RAW or RAI, I suppose I must concede a point to Muspelheimr. I didn't catch those inconsistencies in my first reading, which may have been because I was referencing the FAQ in relation to the above mentioned thread. Overall, I still like most of the FAQ interpretations and plan on using them in my own game, and I think it does have at least a bit of weight as RAI considering that someone had to like it enough to approve of it being posted on their website.

sorry for bumping this up and sorry if i ask something that was already explained before - but i can't get it. really.

just to make it clear:

a human has a max. augmented reaction of 9, right. so, if i have a human whose natural rea is 6, there would be no reason to give him move by wire 3 (exept for ip). and furthermore, it would be a horrible waste of money to implant an additional reaction enhancer because the maximum reaction a human can achieve - EVER and no matter what... is 9.

right?

this sucks.

Correct... unless you make him into a cyberzombie in which case the more negative the Essence, the higher the augmented maximums for stats can be. But that's a special case.

That said, there are optional rules & house rules about exceeding racial / augmented maximums. I'm thinking of allowing it in my game but have the karma costs to raise the stat either be 2x or 3x the normal cost to raise.

im fine with natural maximums but i cant see any sense in capping the augmented attributes. i always thought that maxing out your abilities by cyberware would be a primary goal in shadowrun. i mean... thats the stuff shadowrun is based on, right? super fast machine like bad ass street sammies.

but hey... rules are rules. thats fine.

time for a 14 year old japanese super fast school girl cyber zombie. oO

cheers!


could you tell me where?

I think the max rules are fine, but if you want to house-rule them higher/away, go ahead. Maybe something like 'requires deltaware', etc.

You're right, and it only furthers cheapening what cyber and bio can do to the human body. One thing i preferred about SR2/3 was that if you really wanted to be the fastest street sam alive you could certainly do it, but it will cost a ton of essence and money. in SR4 with a 9 cap for humans (still crazy high) you could theoretically have a guy with 2 natural reaction, get MBW 3 and a Synthacardium and be the most reactive human on the planet, but that's as high as you can possibly get barring gene optimization or qualities. It does make reaction enhancers fairly pointless when WR and MBW add to a reaction cap that can max out extremely easily.

Reaction Enhancers are just another option; not everything is part of a single perfect setup. They're smaller and cheaper (although not cheap), and they stack.

Although I already suggested a house rule (require Deltaware), here's another: pushing yourself beyond the maximums causes damage. A human with Reaction over 9 (for example) gets the old 'impulsive' penalty from SR3, or an overstress penalty (I think they still have that in SR4?), or risks mod addiction, or has a penalty to Social tests/concentration/etc., or regular maintenance is required (maybe of the 'ware, or maybe of the *body* trying to deal with the 'ware), and so on. There are plenty of ways to allow bleeding-edge-itude without going nuts.

Jim's already done that. Her name was Bubblegum.

IMO the maximums were somethig I was glad to see added. Unless you've got a cybe-zombie its important to remember that implants, bio, whatever you're using to augment yourself, is actually augmenting your flesh and blood body. That body has real limits and thresholds that it can not go beyond without destroying itself. If you put a faster, more powerful engine, in a car but do not upgrade the tires or suspension then the rest of the car might not be able to handle the new engine. I see cyber the same way in SR.

A couple of years ago I remember reading an article about baseball pitchers. Some doctors theorize that pitchers are not able to continue to increase pitch velocity over the high 90s to rare low 100 mph due to the human arm. The tendons and bones are not like muscles that can really be strengthened, and if you put too much pressure on them they will break. This is the main cause that pitchers speed is basically capped. The amount of strain put on a pitchers arm was made VERY clear to me in 1989 when I watched Dave Dravecky's arm snap! He had lost muscle mass due to cancer surgery but was able to rebuild the strength. However, without the full mass his arm was not able to handle the strain and the bone literally SNAPPED when he threw the ball.

All parts of the body, not just the ware you put in, need to be able to handle the strain. That SR science has limits as to how far it can push things is something I appreciate. It gives room for new cutting edge tech in a game, there is a boundary to be pushed via research; very expensive and valuable research that affords shadowrunners work opportunities.

Well you can get Genetic Optimisation (Reaction) as well as Exceptional Attribute (Reaction) and Metegenetic Improvement (Reaction), the last one ofcource requiers you to take class 2 SURGE so your not technically a human anymore but a changeling. But even taking just the first 2 raises the augmentet maximum to 12.

genetic optimization (rea) + exeptional atrribute (rea) would give a total of +2 and would raise the maximum to 11 - as far as i understand the rules. metagenic improvement (rea) would give an additional +1 and would raise the maximum to a total of 12. ok, thats not bad.

house rules are also a good idea. the delta ware thing sounds quite good but how often are runners able to grab a piece of delta ware...! this house rule would be an alibi to NOT let my players exeed their augmented maximum. risking an addiction and overstress are very good ideas IMO.

i do like the baseball posting by caadium. its a good and realistic explanation for natural maximums. but on the other hand i have to say that shadowrun does not harmonize with realism very well.

6 + 2 = 8

8 * 1.5 = 12

You could read it to say that Genetic Optimization actually says 'raises natural and augmented max by 1'. So, it'd be 11.5. Exceptional Attrib and Metagenic Imp. both talk about just the natural max, so they're assumed to act normally (1.5)

I wouldn't do that with Gen Opt, and it doesn't matter very much anyway.

Doesn't the half round up anyway? But yes, I did miss "raise augmented max by 1."

Arguably though, it could mean an additional 1 above the "0.5" that raising natural attribute would give (so a 12.5).

Haha! That's certainly one interpretation, hehe. I feel like they're all meant to be the normal 1.5, of course.

I suspect that it is the same as the others, but the "raises augmented max" was included as a clarifier that if you have a 7 natural stat (instead of a 6) your augmented maximum also went up by one (due to rounding).

I'm pretty sure that augmented maximums aren't rounded at al, so while technically 1,5*7 = 10,5 you can only raise that to 10 as you cant get a half point of a stat/skill.

Which is rounding DOWN. Not UP.
In SR3, 10.5 meant you rounded up to 11.
In SR4, 10.5 means you round down to 10.

well technically no, your augmented maximum is 10,5 you just can only get full point of atributes.
No where in the rules does it say anythink about rounding(IIRC), becouse its not necessary.