Well, Maxx said 'damm'; I guess we all have our own limits for perfectly ordinary speech.

Sure, some things do not bother me all that much, but others do... I tend to only comment when someone pushes my buttons a bit. In the end, though, profanity is not really needed to make a point in a debate... It tends to distract and raise emotion... provoking a response that is not rational... Which is why it is often used, in my opinion...

I make an effort to not use it in any of my posts because it just causes a lot of pronblems, and tends to escalate things... Unfortunately, I am not always as succesful as I would like to be.

Sorry for the "Preaching", I know it gets annoying...

Keep the Faith

When a Frequently Asked Questions document extends beyond its purview, its legitimacy is effectively nullified. The definitions for an FAQ and Erratum have already been given, and the FAQ very clearly fails in it's purpose in multiple instances. The author of the FAQ has even confirmed this distinct difference between the two.

As such, personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The current FAQ is not a viable source for rules debate, and should be (generally will be) thoroughly ignored.



Possession is, Rules as Written, subject to attribute augmented maximums. There are three specific arguments against this I am aware of.

First, that statistic blocks of characters in Ghost Cartels show possession increasing attributes above augmented maximums.
Counter: Ghost Cartels, commonly along with modules in general, is rife with rules errors - the possession stat blocks merely one of many.

Second, that possession results in a 'new' creature.
Counter: At no point do the possession rules state a new entity is created, instead that the spirit and vessel are treated as a combined entity. Further, it specifically states that the possessing spirit's Force is added to the physical attributes of the vessel. As an increase, instead of a replacement (as the mental attributes are handled),it falls under the augmented maximum rule.

Third, that possession does not specifically state it is subject to augmented maximums.
Counter: Failure to specify an instance is subject to a previously stated governing rule does not constitute an exception to the rule.



That being said, my understanding is that possession was originally intended to be exempt from the augmented maximums rule.
Further, possession is specifically not subject to augmented maximums in my game, along with some other changes to spirits in general.

QFT

I can't say much about the first point. This is entirely possible.

This must be a new entity since neither of its parts (spirit & host) are necessarily dual-natured.
True, but since the host does not exist for the duration of the possession, we do not know what the composite entity's natural maxima are and we cannot calculate the augmented maxima. All we know is the entity's current attributes, which are the sum of the hosts current attribute and the spirit's force.

BTW What are the augmented maxima for inanimate vessels? They to get the spirit's force added to their stats.

Every time a magician decides to astrally perceive, they become dual-natured. So, every time a magician astrally perceives, they become an entirely new character (& again when they stop, aparently)?

Provide a quote for the vessel 'ceasing to exist'. It is not there.

The living vessel of a possessing spirit is (typically) held in a suspended mental state, but very much still exists; they are simply unable to control their body. If they where conscious when the possession took effect, they are even explicitly aware of everything 'they' are doing, and can even potentially take limited mental actions (such as a magician directing their possessing spirit).



Edit: If the possession generates an entirely new creature is essentially irrelevant. It is a poorly supported interpretation of a fluff used in an attempt to convolute the rules into a preferred interpretation, with no actual relevance to that interpretation.

The simple matter is that the rules state that the vessels physical attributes are increased by the possessing spirits' Force (or rather, the spirits' Force is added to the vessels physical attributes, if I remember correctly - same thing), without giving an exception to the augmented maximum limiter of attribute increases.

Admittedly cessation of existence is a bit too harsh a term. But the composite entity is something different from both the spirit and the vessel. As such the composite has different properties than either, just like the mage who starts to astrally perceive or project. He gets different properties and has to follow a different set of rules. Fortunately for the mage these rules have been set. The composite of vessel and spirit however have no such rules. We don't know what its augmented maximum is. What makes you think it is the augmented maximum of the vessel? The rules give no indication for that.

A thought experiment:

Take a glass of water with a thermometer in it. Cool the glass until the water freezes. Depending on the ambient pressure the water should freeze around 0°C, I guess we can agree on that. Let's say this is the augmented maximum for the vessel.

Let the water warm up to room temperature again. Now add salt and cool again. The water will freeze at a considerably lower temperature. Thus we have established that tap water+salt is something else than tap water alone. This is the same for a vessel and a vessel + spirit.

In the case of water we can find out the altered properties experimentally. Sadly with possessed vessels this is not possible. Since we cannot experiment on actual possessed vessels and the rule books do not give us any maximum for the composite any number is just as right or wrong as any other. Until there is another erratum, there is nothing in the rules saying that the composite has a maximum or what it is.

Moreover the sidebar on p. 102 tells us which properties the composite gains from the spirit or inherits from the vessel. There is no mention of augmented maxima. Since the the new entity is no longer a normal metahuman/item/whatever it does not have the property "augmented maximum attribute X", unless it is mentioned in the description.

BTW what makes the passage "If the test fails, the spirit is immediately forced back into the astral plane. If the test succeeds, the possession takes hold: the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration." fluff? it talks about results of a test. To me that is game mechanics.

That's a pretty poor analogy, Dakka Dakka. As I can continue to freeze that water as much as I feel like and it will get colder.

I can also subject it to pressure extremes and, at room temperature, get it to both boil and freeze (low pressure and high, respectively).


"the vessel and the critter are considered a single dual-natured entity for the duration"

Considered, not are. I can consider the iPhone is a portable computer, but it isn't really.

Yet, as far as the rules are concerned, they are treated as one.

But it will no longer be water, it will be ice hence it will no longer behave as it should. Which is the same thing with the composite of vessel and spirit. There may be a point where you can install a higher Force spirit, but the composite's attributes will no longer benefit from it. But since we know of no properties of the composite, we can't tell when this will be.

D'uh. I know. I should have specified to leave the pressure constant at 1013 mbar.


So when do you take that into consideration and when don't you? You say it is a single entity, otherwise it would not make sense to add the attributes but you do not consider it a single entity but a normal metahuman, when it comes to the maximum? This is weird.

Let's look at the Dodge Scoot (BOD 4). If a spirit possesses the vehicle is its maximum BOD 6 or 1.5 times its actual BOD, or is it 12 since it is a motorcycle and in the group of motorcycles there is also the HD Scorpion (BOD 8 ). It could also be 45 since both the Scoot and the Scorpions are vehicles and there are vehicles with an actual BOD of 30. Augmented Maxima are not based on the actual stats of the individual but on a group of entities with certain similarities.
AFAIK augmented maxima are only ever defined for metahumans and other playable races, which the composite is not or is considered not to be.

Just finish reading the rule. "the combined being that results" and "and boasts all of the spirits powers and skills" are the most telling parts from the sidebar.

Besides whose augmented maximums are you supposed to use??? The vessals or the spirits??? Is this a spirit youre dealing with or a person??? It would really suck if you were possessed by a force 2 spirit and all your physical attribs were limited to 3 for the duration. Sounds silly to me. Sounds silly to me to do the same thing in reverse too.

My point exactly

Nah, I still think the host is the base for the 'combined entity'. That's what host means.

That is literally the only rules text relevant in this particular debate.

You are taking a base value [vessel's physical attributes], and applying a positive modifier [spirit's Force].
There is no mention whatsoever about this being an exception to the augmented maximums rule.

Rules as Written, attribute increases gained through possession are subject to the vessel's augmented maximums.



I don't give a shit how you run it in your games. I do not run it that way in my games.

However, any other ruling is a House Rule.

That is literally the only rules text relevant in this particular debate.

You are taking a base value [vessel's physical attributes], and applying a positive modifier [spirit's Force].
There is no mention whatsoever about this being an exception to the augmented maximums rule.

Rules as Written, attribute increases gained through possession are subject to the vessel's augmented maximums.



I don't give a shit how you run it in your games. I do not run it that way in my games.

However, any other ruling is a House Rule.

The host, in all its forms but one, does not limit the augmentation with which the possessing spirit raises its characteristics. The only form that ostensibly does so is a possessed character. To what degree that limitation exists (as expressed in the hated FAQ) is the never-ending, ever-increasingly vehement argument that keeps cropping up here.

Those limitations are imposed solely because a) people fear the augmented host as something unstoppable and b) people won't or can't apply the full spectrum of built-in limitations to magic and/or possession that can, in ordinary situations not focussed in any way on nuking the possessed character, trip up the most tank-like combined entity without burning away the rest of the party. The FAQ is a capitulation to this weakness among GMs. These same people make little or no noise about a mage who has a honking big spirit working separately from him, yet quail in fear when their actions are cut in half by possession. It boggles the mind.

I don't mind going by the limitation as described in the FAQ, in part because most GMs go that way and it's just a game (Their game, after all!) and I don't need the hassle fighting for every Attribute point, and in part because the jerk* competitor in me is glad to see the GM can't handle/out-think possession as it was originally written. That means he can't handle/out-think an infinitely more difficult problem ... a creative player.**

*Word chosen so as not to offend sensitive players.

**EDIT: Text chosen to raise hackles.

How is the following not a rule?So first the rules say that vessel and spirit are considered a single entity and thus no longer a metahuman. For the composite, we don't know what the augmented maximum is supposed to be. As such any number is arbitrary.

BTW What happens if the spirit possesses some critter? Those don't even have augmented maxima in the first place, at least I found no such rule in the BBB or Running Wild.

Ya know...

The first time I read that section, I read it as saying if possession was successful, the new attribute values were the sum of Host + Spirit.

Muspellsheimr, where does RAW state the spirit's attributes are a bonus to the host? As far as I can see it, that is your interpretation. Now it may be right, it may be wrong but that's another discussion.

These sorts of things often make me want to buy the PDFs so I can make a copy which incorporates *MY* interpretations of the rules and include examples in the text of the book.

Well, to be fair TJ, it's not half as annoying as your inability to use periods at the ends of sentences. In my eyes, that's far more bothersome than a bit of non-directed profanity.

To Each his own I guess.

Keep the Faith

Found it -- I kept going back and forth through Running Wild and finally found it in the SR4A book, p304, exactly how a Great Dragon's stats are created. It's invalid anyway, though, as Shapechange doesn't work on critters.

Shape change Kimodo Dragon then have delusions of grandeur.

Yep, its a template. But I was just saying under the assumption that you could "shapeshift" into any critter or paracritter.