IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> Stay Safe While Hot-Simmed, Or, How Not To Fry Your Brain
kjones
post Mar 31 2010, 04:59 AM
Post #1


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 15-February 10
From: CMU
Member No.: 18,163



My hacker player came to me with an idea, and I wasn't entirely sure how to respond, so I put it forth to you, dear Dumpshockers.

Say a hacker is in hot-sim VR, connected only by a datajack (not wireless). A trusted friend/ally is standing guard over his body in meatspace. The hacker breaks into some system, but runs into some black IC. He gets hit with Blackhammer, takes some damage, and realizes he's in over his head, but he can't jack out, since the Blackhammer jammed his connection open. Could the hacker send a message to his buddy through the Matrix, who could then physically disconnect him by yanking the cable? Sure, he'd get dumpshocked, but it beats the alternative.

So, the questions I have are:
1. Can you connect to the Matrix solely through a datajack? (I hope the answer is yes.)
2. Would a system currently battling a hacker try to block his outgoing communications?
3. Is having a datajack connection yanked out any worse than normal jacking out?
4. Are there any other reasons why this should or shouldn't work?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Mar 31 2010, 05:06 AM
Post #2


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

Personally, I have trouble understanding how any of these programs work in that fashion anyway. With the sheer processing power of the hardware in the game, there's no reason at all that any hacker worth their salt couldn't create a failsafe that kicks in the moment it detects exactly what the IC is doing. It's not like there's millions of different ways they operate. Hell, just hook a biomonitor up and let it do the work of monitoring.

As someone else on the forum said, it's goofy how magical the Matrix is compared to the actual magic system.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Jopp
post Mar 31 2010, 05:13 AM
Post #3


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,925
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 948



You need the following:
Agent
Biomonitor
Datajack

The agent is present in the datajack and monitors the hackers vitals by being linked both to the commlink, datajack and biomonitor. If the Biomonitor detects physical damage (Analyze check against Biomonitor for agent) and/or data stream from commlink regarding IC attack) it breaks the connection between itself (datajacK) and the commlink - no need for team member to stay on the watch.

You culd probably have the Agent doing a logoff action from the datajack.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kzt
post Mar 31 2010, 06:04 AM
Post #4


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Members
Posts: 5,537
Joined: 27-August 06
From: Albuquerque NM
Member No.: 9,234



If you used wired reflexes 3 in AR you take NO damage....
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Professor Evil O...
post Mar 31 2010, 07:31 AM
Post #5


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 129
Joined: 1-February 10
From: CalFree State
Member No.: 18,103



QUOTE (kjones @ Mar 30 2010, 08:59 PM) *
Say a hacker is in hot-sim VR, connected only by a datajack (not wireless). A trusted friend/ally is standing guard over his body in meatspace. The hacker breaks into some system, but runs into some black IC. He gets hit with Blackhammer, takes some damage, and realizes he's in over his head, but he can't jack out, since the Blackhammer jammed his connection open. Could the hacker send a message to his buddy through the Matrix, who could then physically disconnect him by yanking the cable? Sure, he'd get dumpshocked, but it beats the alternative.


My players have been using that trick for years. Why bother contacting your buddy via the matrix tough? Just have him/her watch the action using the humble view screen. Or just have the hacker, YELL at them. It's not like being in hot sim stops you from taking physical actions - it just makes it really hard.

If the hacker is getting wailed on you can just disconnect him/her. Or, better yet, have a mage nearby start healing the hacker of physical damage or applying stim patches for stun. With prep time you can even keep a few bound spirits (or an ally spirit) handy to sustain the spells for you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Axl
post Mar 31 2010, 07:36 AM
Post #6


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 175
Joined: 19-October 09
Member No.: 17,767



Or when wirelessly connected, use a directional jammer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Saint Sithney
post Mar 31 2010, 08:59 AM
Post #7


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,705
Joined: 5-October 09
From: You are in a clearing
Member No.: 17,722



QUOTE
As a safety precaution, sim mods override your motor
functions while you are fully immersed in VR/simsense, so
that you donít blindly thrash around in the real world and
potentially injure yourself or break things. This means that
your physical body is limp while youíre online, as if you were
sleeping. This reticular activation system (RAS) override
can also be disabled with a Hardware + Logic (5, 1 hour)
Extended Test, at the userís own risk.


One screwdriver and a couple hours to make sure you're never going to get trapped by Black IC again.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ascalaphus
post Mar 31 2010, 09:34 AM
Post #8


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,899
Joined: 29-October 09
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Member No.: 17,814



The problem with external monitoring systems (Agents, teammates) is that it's hard for them to estimate how serious the IC is. Would you want to get jacked out if it was just 1-2 damage, and you almost had the IC beat anyway?

Removing the RAS override seems like a good move, as long as you don't use an internal commlink anyway. It's a bit odd though. I always imagined that Black IC overrode your physical body's mobility.

As for why biofeedback is so hard to filter out: because it's only slightly different from the VR signal you're piping directly into your brain. In order to be super-fast you have to have very direct access. (Also, there is a particular program for detecting and filtering out biofeedback called... Biofeedback Filter!)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mongoose
post Mar 31 2010, 06:24 PM
Post #9


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 588
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 227



Removing the RAS overide seems like a very bad idea. Being in the matrix is kind of like having a dream. Ever seen a dog having a dream that he's hunting / fighting? What happens when you accidentally fling your comlink across the room because your hand think you are trying to "sling some code", or damage other equipment (or yourself) while trying to "run away" from IC?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
rumanchu
post Mar 31 2010, 07:27 PM
Post #10


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 123
Joined: 19-February 10
From: Bakersfield, CA
Member No.: 18,179



QUOTE (kzt @ Mar 30 2010, 11:04 PM) *
If you used wired reflexes 3 in AR you take NO damage....


You also don't get +2 to basically every test you make, though.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Mar 31 2010, 08:49 PM
Post #11


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,071
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 31 2010, 09:59 AM) *
One screwdriver and a couple hours to make sure you're never going to get trapped by Black IC again.

You'll break every bone in your body while thrashing around like mad. And I doubt it gets better or more controllable while your neurons are fried by IC...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Saint Sithney
post Mar 31 2010, 09:31 PM
Post #12


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,705
Joined: 5-October 09
From: You are in a clearing
Member No.: 17,722



Disable it and then put it on a command toggle. Then, with a Simple action toggle it off and pull your plug. Viola. One simple modification to save your life... Possibly.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Sengir
post Mar 31 2010, 09:46 PM
Post #13


Great Dragon
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,071
Joined: 3-October 09
From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier
Member No.: 17,709



QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Mar 31 2010, 09:31 PM) *
Disable it and then put it on a command toggle. Then, with a Simple action toggle it off and pull your plug.

See my second sentence, the thrashing and kicking and screaming will certainly not get any better while your CNS is under attack. Of couse you could just use the simple action to tell a drone to cut your cable or tell a teammate to pull the plug (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Mar 31 2010, 10:43 PM
Post #14


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (rumanchu @ Mar 31 2010, 01:27 PM) *
You also don't get +2 to basically every test you make, though.


IS that +2 Dice really all that dig of a Deal though? I Rarely use VR with my Hacker... I have 3 meat passes and use AR almost exclusively... though I do have the hardware to utilize Hot when it is absolutely necessary, I just have never run into to many situations where it is absolutely necessary...

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Shrike30
post Mar 31 2010, 10:44 PM
Post #15


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,556
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Seattle
Member No.: 98



One of the key elements to Black ICE is that it's trying to kill you, and people have been coming up with devious ways to do that forever. If there was a simple fix to that ("just kick out the RAS override and unplug yourself!"), I'm pretty sure all those Black ICE coders would have already added a simple unfix to it ("just add some neural feedback that, if the RAS override is kicked out, puts their body into a grand mal seizure!"). The buddy system is great.

QUOTE
IS that +2 Dice really all that dig of a Deal though?

Smartgun users the world round say yes.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ol' Scratch
post Mar 31 2010, 10:53 PM
Post #16


Immortal Elf
**********

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890



It's as big a deal as any other +2 bonus. Which is to say, yes, it is a big deal. Especially if you extrapolate that kind of question to everything else. "Is having a skill of 6 a big deal compared to 4? If not, why bother? And is having a skill of 4 a big deal compared to 2? If not, why bother? Why have a skill at all, man? None of it matters. It's all just a collection of +'s..."
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Saint Sithney
post Mar 31 2010, 11:05 PM
Post #17


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,705
Joined: 5-October 09
From: You are in a clearing
Member No.: 17,722



QUOTE (Shrike30 @ Mar 31 2010, 02:44 PM) *
One of the key elements to Black ICE is that it's trying to kill you, and people have been coming up with devious ways to do that forever. If there was a simple fix to that ("just kick out the RAS override and unplug yourself!"), I'm pretty sure all those Black ICE coders would have already added a simple unfix to it ("just add some neural feedback that, if the RAS override is kicked out, puts their body into a grand mal seizure!"). The buddy system is great.


Aye, but, wouldn't it be far simpler on the hacker's part to install a command operated physical disconnect? Just a deck/com that could pull a circuit break on command? Though, I suppose that would be a major liability if someone actually managed to trace and spoof for instant DS.

I suppose the idea of strapping an emotitoy to your deck to yank plugs would keep Trace out of the equation.
It just seems like a ripchord would be so easy to make. Bind com/deck to one hand and have the plug strapped to the other, then rest hands on lap. Any sharp movement then automatically yanks chord from socket.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 1 2010, 12:00 AM
Post #18


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Mar 31 2010, 04:53 PM) *
It's as big a deal as any other +2 bonus. Which is to say, yes, it is a big deal. Especially if you extrapolate that kind of question to everything else. "Is having a skill of 6 a big deal compared to 4? If not, why bother? And is having a skill of 4 a big deal compared to 2? If not, why bother? Why have a skill at all, man? None of it matters. It's all just a collection of +'s..."



I guess that the more appropriate question would have been:

Is that +2 Dice worth putting your life on the line by allowing your body to take damage from Neural Feedback?

I wil readily admit that if there are no drawbacks (like a Smartgun System) then there is really no reson to NOT use it... however, when you can run up against a Biofeedback Enhanced Data Bomb that deals 6d6+6 points of Damage (Rating 6 Data Bomb with Rating 6 Biofeedback Option)... are you really interested in seeing if your Rating 6 Biofeedback Filter is up to the task of a potential 42 points of Feedback Damage (and an Average of 24 Points of Damage)?

There will be times that you will not successfully Defuse the bomb, and you will be left a drooling idiot or dead, depending upon the rating of the Bomb... it is times like those that I do not mind losing the +2 Dice from VR Hot Sim... after all, it is only 2 Dice...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ascalaphus
post Apr 1 2010, 12:03 AM
Post #19


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 2,899
Joined: 29-October 09
From: Leiden, the Netherlands
Member No.: 17,814



I gotta say, +2 dice on all tests isn't such a great trade for the vulnerability to biofeedback. It's only with the upgrades that unlock Matrix IP 4-5 that VR is really worth it.

...which I think was unhappy design. Previously when there was no AR hacking to speak of, VR was required and Black IC useful. So now what kind of nasty countermeasures should there be against AR hackers?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 1 2010, 12:05 AM
Post #20


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 31 2010, 06:03 PM) *
I gotta say, +2 dice on all tests isn't such a great trade for the vulnerability to biofeedback. It's only with the upgrades that unlock Matrix IP 4-5 that VR is really worth it.

...which I think was unhappy design. Previously when there was no AR hacking to speak of, VR was required and Black IC useful. So now what kind of nasty countermeasures should there be against AR hackers?



There is not really any thing nasty you can apply to an AR HAcker from teh Matrix... However, there are times when you want to be in VR... VR Probing is 24 times faster than AR Probing (Interval 1 Hour vs 24 Hours)... so for probes, you probably want to be in VR Mode, at least if time is a constraint...

For on the fly hacks though, I default to AR, as it leaves me useful in the real world as well, as I tend to tag along with the rest of the team on a Run...

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Falconer
post Apr 1 2010, 12:24 AM
Post #21


Neophyte Runner
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,283
Joined: 12-October 07
Member No.: 13,662



Just prepare to be dumpshocked, when your connection is forcibly disconnected.

But yeah, it's far simpler to go with an agent keeping tabs on your biomonitor. If I'm knocked unconcious or take a certain amount of physical damage disconnect me... (turn off the datajack, change my signal rating from 6 to 0... IE: turn off the radio in the commlink.. it IS an option... you don't need a cabled link or a jammer or anything like that).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjones
post Apr 1 2010, 01:24 AM
Post #22


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 15-February 10
From: CMU
Member No.: 18,163



The difference in probing the target, as Tymaeus pointed out, is huge - not all runs have a time limit, but your group isn't going to like sitting around for three days while you crack that firewall (only to trip an alarm and get logged off - not that I'm speaking from experience, no siree). Even then, though, you can always just jump into VR (cold-sim) while probing, then switch to AR as soon as you get access. Minimal risk.

Getting extra IPs in the Matrix is also much, much cheaper than getting them in meatspace, so that helps.

What can you do to an AR hacker? Crash his icon, trace him... that's pretty much it. Unless I'm missing something?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
pbangarth
post Apr 1 2010, 01:32 AM
Post #23


Old Man of the North
**********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 9,111
Joined: 14-August 03
From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe
Member No.: 5,463



QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 31 2010, 06:00 PM) *
I wil readily admit that if there are no drawbacks (like a Smartgun System) then there is really no reson to NOT use it... however, when you can run up against a Biofeedback Enhanced Data Bomb that deals 6d6+6 points of Damage (Rating 6 Data Bomb with Rating 6 Biofeedback Option)... are you really interested in seeing if your Rating 6 Biofeedback Filter is up to the task of a potential 42 points of Feedback Damage (and an Average of 24 Points of Damage)?
Actually, the average in this case would be 27 points of damage... not that it matters much at that level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
kjones
post Apr 1 2010, 01:38 AM
Post #24


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 332
Joined: 15-February 10
From: CMU
Member No.: 18,163



QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 31 2010, 08:32 PM) *
Actually, the average in this case would be 27 points of damage... not that it matters much at that level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)


Sweet zombie Jesus, what would that even look like?

My general visual model for damage taken while in the Matrix is from, well, The Matrix - when they get beat up while plugged in, and their bodies thrash around and blood leaks out of their mouth and stuff.

But 27P is what you would get if you were standing at ground zero of an Aztechnology Series 5. (More than!)

So, I'm thinking - blood shoots out of every orifice in your body in high-pressure streams, and then your brains run out your nose as a chunky grey slurry.

The comparison to smartguns is interesting - it's like saying "Every time you use your smartgun, the other guys automatically start shooting Ex-Ex rounds".
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Apr 1 2010, 01:59 AM
Post #25


Prime Runner Ascendant
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 17,568
Joined: 26-March 09
From: Aurora, Colorado
Member No.: 17,022



QUOTE (pbangarth @ Mar 31 2010, 07:32 PM) *
Actually, the average in this case would be 27 points of damage... not that it matters much at that level. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)


Indeed it is... Mind is a little fuzzy today...

Keep the Faith
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th May 2023 - 07:49 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.