My hacker player came to me with an idea, and I wasn't entirely sure how to respond, so I put it forth to you, dear Dumpshockers.

Say a hacker is in hot-sim VR, connected only by a datajack (not wireless). A trusted friend/ally is standing guard over his body in meatspace. The hacker breaks into some system, but runs into some black IC. He gets hit with Blackhammer, takes some damage, and realizes he's in over his head, but he can't jack out, since the Blackhammer jammed his connection open. Could the hacker send a message to his buddy through the Matrix, who could then physically disconnect him by yanking the cable? Sure, he'd get dumpshocked, but it beats the alternative.

So, the questions I have are:
1. Can you connect to the Matrix solely through a datajack? (I hope the answer is yes.)
2. Would a system currently battling a hacker try to block his outgoing communications?
3. Is having a datajack connection yanked out any worse than normal jacking out?
4. Are there any other reasons why this should or shouldn't work?

I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work.

Personally, I have trouble understanding how any of these programs work in that fashion anyway. With the sheer processing power of the hardware in the game, there's no reason at all that any hacker worth their salt couldn't create a failsafe that kicks in the moment it detects exactly what the IC is doing. It's not like there's millions of different ways they operate. Hell, just hook a biomonitor up and let it do the work of monitoring.

As someone else on the forum said, it's goofy how magical the Matrix is compared to the actual magic system.

You need the following:
Agent
Biomonitor
Datajack

The agent is present in the datajack and monitors the hackers vitals by being linked both to the commlink, datajack and biomonitor. If the Biomonitor detects physical damage (Analyze check against Biomonitor for agent) and/or data stream from commlink regarding IC attack) it breaks the connection between itself (datajacK) and the commlink - no need for team member to stay on the watch.

You culd probably have the Agent doing a logoff action from the datajack.

If you used wired reflexes 3 in AR you take NO damage....

My players have been using that trick for years. Why bother contacting your buddy via the matrix tough? Just have him/her watch the action using the humble view screen. Or just have the hacker, YELL at them. It's not like being in hot sim stops you from taking physical actions - it just makes it really hard.

If the hacker is getting wailed on you can just disconnect him/her. Or, better yet, have a mage nearby start healing the hacker of physical damage or applying stim patches for stun. With prep time you can even keep a few bound spirits (or an ally spirit) handy to sustain the spells for you.

Or when wirelessly connected, use a directional jammer.

One screwdriver and a couple hours to make sure you're never going to get trapped by Black IC again.

The problem with external monitoring systems (Agents, teammates) is that it's hard for them to estimate how serious the IC is. Would you want to get jacked out if it was just 1-2 damage, and you almost had the IC beat anyway?

Removing the RAS override seems like a good move, as long as you don't use an internal commlink anyway. It's a bit odd though. I always imagined that Black IC overrode your physical body's mobility.

As for why biofeedback is so hard to filter out: because it's only slightly different from the VR signal you're piping directly into your brain. In order to be super-fast you have to have very direct access. (Also, there is a particular program for detecting and filtering out biofeedback called... Biofeedback Filter!)

Removing the RAS overide seems like a very bad idea. Being in the matrix is kind of like having a dream. Ever seen a dog having a dream that he's hunting / fighting? What happens when you accidentally fling your comlink across the room because your hand think you are trying to "sling some code", or damage other equipment (or yourself) while trying to "run away" from IC?

You also don't get +2 to basically every test you make, though.

You'll break every bone in your body while thrashing around like mad. And I doubt it gets better or more controllable while your neurons are fried by IC...

Disable it and then put it on a command toggle. Then, with a Simple action toggle it off and pull your plug. Viola. One simple modification to save your life... Possibly.

See my second sentence, the thrashing and kicking and screaming will certainly not get any better while your CNS is under attack. Of couse you could just use the simple action to tell a drone to cut your cable or tell a teammate to pull the plug

IS that +2 Dice really all that dig of a Deal though? I Rarely use VR with my Hacker... I have 3 meat passes and use AR almost exclusively... though I do have the hardware to utilize Hot when it is absolutely necessary, I just have never run into to many situations where it is absolutely necessary...

Keep the Faith

One of the key elements to Black ICE is that it's trying to kill you, and people have been coming up with devious ways to do that forever. If there was a simple fix to that ("just kick out the RAS override and unplug yourself!"), I'm pretty sure all those Black ICE coders would have already added a simple unfix to it ("just add some neural feedback that, if the RAS override is kicked out, puts their body into a grand mal seizure!"). The buddy system is great.


Smartgun users the world round say yes.

It's as big a deal as any other +2 bonus. Which is to say, yes, it is a big deal. Especially if you extrapolate that kind of question to everything else. "Is having a skill of 6 a big deal compared to 4? If not, why bother? And is having a skill of 4 a big deal compared to 2? If not, why bother? Why have a skill at all, man? None of it matters. It's all just a collection of +'s..."

Aye, but, wouldn't it be far simpler on the hacker's part to install a command operated physical disconnect? Just a deck/com that could pull a circuit break on command? Though, I suppose that would be a major liability if someone actually managed to trace and spoof for instant DS.

I suppose the idea of strapping an emotitoy to your deck to yank plugs would keep Trace out of the equation.
It just seems like a ripchord would be so easy to make. Bind com/deck to one hand and have the plug strapped to the other, then rest hands on lap. Any sharp movement then automatically yanks chord from socket.

I guess that the more appropriate question would have been:

Is that +2 Dice worth putting your life on the line by allowing your body to take damage from Neural Feedback?

I wil readily admit that if there are no drawbacks (like a Smartgun System) then there is really no reson to NOT use it... however, when you can run up against a Biofeedback Enhanced Data Bomb that deals 6d6+6 points of Damage (Rating 6 Data Bomb with Rating 6 Biofeedback Option)... are you really interested in seeing if your Rating 6 Biofeedback Filter is up to the task of a potential 42 points of Feedback Damage (and an Average of 24 Points of Damage)?

There will be times that you will not successfully Defuse the bomb, and you will be left a drooling idiot or dead, depending upon the rating of the Bomb... it is times like those that I do not mind losing the +2 Dice from VR Hot Sim... after all, it is only 2 Dice...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

I gotta say, +2 dice on all tests isn't such a great trade for the vulnerability to biofeedback. It's only with the upgrades that unlock Matrix IP 4-5 that VR is really worth it.

...which I think was unhappy design. Previously when there was no AR hacking to speak of, VR was required and Black IC useful. So now what kind of nasty countermeasures should there be against AR hackers?

There is not really any thing nasty you can apply to an AR HAcker from teh Matrix... However, there are times when you want to be in VR... VR Probing is 24 times faster than AR Probing (Interval 1 Hour vs 24 Hours)... so for probes, you probably want to be in VR Mode, at least if time is a constraint...

For on the fly hacks though, I default to AR, as it leaves me useful in the real world as well, as I tend to tag along with the rest of the team on a Run...

Keep the Faith

Just prepare to be dumpshocked, when your connection is forcibly disconnected.

But yeah, it's far simpler to go with an agent keeping tabs on your biomonitor. If I'm knocked unconcious or take a certain amount of physical damage disconnect me... (turn off the datajack, change my signal rating from 6 to 0... IE: turn off the radio in the commlink.. it IS an option... you don't need a cabled link or a jammer or anything like that).

The difference in probing the target, as Tymaeus pointed out, is huge - not all runs have a time limit, but your group isn't going to like sitting around for three days while you crack that firewall (only to trip an alarm and get logged off - not that I'm speaking from experience, no siree). Even then, though, you can always just jump into VR (cold-sim) while probing, then switch to AR as soon as you get access. Minimal risk.

Getting extra IPs in the Matrix is also much, much cheaper than getting them in meatspace, so that helps.

What can you do to an AR hacker? Crash his icon, trace him... that's pretty much it. Unless I'm missing something?

Actually, the average in this case would be 27 points of damage... not that it matters much at that level.

Sweet zombie Jesus, what would that even look like?

My general visual model for damage taken while in the Matrix is from, well, The Matrix - when they get beat up while plugged in, and their bodies thrash around and blood leaks out of their mouth and stuff.

But 27P is what you would get if you were standing at ground zero of an Aztechnology Series 5. (More than!)

So, I'm thinking - blood shoots out of every orifice in your body in high-pressure streams, and then your brains run out your nose as a chunky grey slurry.

The comparison to smartguns is interesting - it's like saying "Every time you use your smartgun, the other guys automatically start shooting Ex-Ex rounds".

Indeed it is... Mind is a little fuzzy today...

Keep the Faith

It's like this: You are a gun fighter. Not the worlds greatest gun fighter, you are a little slow, not the best shot, but you have your trusty predator full of APDS ammo and a bag of extra loaded magazines. Your opponents will almost always get the first shot at you and have a little better chance of dodging your shots than you dodging theirs. But all the other gunfighters are armed with Nerf guns. Who is going to win?

Michael Sutherland had this setup (basically) back in SR2 days. This was documented in novels and in the Prime Runners book, so its even captured canon.

- J.

"There is not really any thing nasty you can apply to an AR HAcker from teh Matrix... However, there are times when you want to be in VR... VR Probing is 24 times faster than AR Probing (Interval 1 Hour vs 24 Hours)... so for probes, you probably want to be in VR Mode, at least if time is a constraint..." - Tymeaus Jalynsfein

I agree. Cold sim VR allows most of the benefits (except +2 dice) without the risk.

So: do you want an extra two dice with the risk of physical injury?

Another issue might be risk of addiction with hot sim. Although I have never seen or heard of a GM who enforced this.

I think they went a bit overboard on the addiction theme in SR4. I expect to start losing Essence for eating food every day by SR5.

Anyway, why not just use VR to probe your way in, then switch to AR? The probing is pretty safe anyway, there's no documented system for noticing it and tracing it back AFAIK.

YOUR BODY DISSOLVES INTO A [CHARACTER NAME] TASTING SOUP. YOUR TITANIUM LINED BONES TWITCH FOR A MOMENT.

Man, that would really suck. Although, I'd just make it so that it essentially slagged their brain and datajack and any of their electronic gear within reach.

I'm put into mind of the critical hit tables from Dark Heresy, the WH40k RPG - on a high enough roll, you could get ludicrous stuff like your limb exploding, sending out bone fragments like a grenade and damaging everyone nearby.

So, something like that. You die so hard that everyone else's commlinks blow up too.

'With a shriek of rending metal and bone, you guys see JTrade's face suddenly go slack. That's not all you notice, though. With no noise at all, all of your commlinks suddenly shut off and emit smells that are suspiciously along the lines of 'something is on fire'. JTrade's cyberhand is currently melting into slag, by the way as he twitches in his chair, already dead. Smoke comes out of his cybereyes and there is a horrible smell of melted plastic and metal mixed with charred flesh. What are you doing with those commlinks, by the way? And Steeler, how far away from JTrade's body are you? I need to see how dramatically your cyberlegs explode.'

We had a character that was admittedly addicted to the Rush of Hot VR SIm... It was quite funny in fact... and it was the thing that killed him in the end...

Keep the Faith

If you are probing and missed that critical piece of information that there was a databomb on the port... you could be in somewhat of a pickle... Even Cold sim takes Stun damage from the Databomb (rather than Physical), and even a rating 4 Databomb on a good roll will still kill you... you had better be really certain about your hacking at that point... Watched the Technomancer suck up a fairly lame roll from a databomb on his intrusion, and he still had to soak 12 points of damage... it was pretty brutal, but an important lesson indeed...

Keep the Faith

Attaching data bombs to the firewall? That's a new one.. I'm not sure that's really provided for by the rules. It's rather iffy too: the whole point of probing is to find a spot that's NOT protected to slip in through.

Given the number of probes by botnets, I also think such data bombs would be exploding all the time.

I think what Tymaeus is referring to is the fact that a data bomb can be set to trigger upon access to a node without providing the proper passcode (SR4A 231, "Set Data Bomb" action). If you're hacking your way in, you can't see the data bomb.

This is a security system with very low tolerance for false positives, so it's not the sort of thing you'd have on your publicly accessible Matrix node - maybe tucked deep in a subsystem somewhere. After all, you don't want to hurt legit users by mistake.

Actually, this brings up a good point - how do you not trigger that data bomb, as a hacker? It seems like if you connect to that node, you're fucked no matter what. There must be a way to, I don't know, "check for traps" or something...

"Analyze for Bombs?"

Of course, but you can't analyze a node that you're not connected to, and you can't connect to the node without setting off the bomb. See the problem? It's like only being able to check for traps on the part of the floor you're standing on.

I'm not sure you can attack a data bomb to a firewall.

a) Any probe, even the first second of the first hour, is an attempt to access the node, which would immediately set off the data bomb. I don't think they can affect things outside their node however, which means that's useless. It also requires a program option to set a new data bomb.

b) Probing means you find a hole in the firewall to sneak in. If the firewall can't see you going in, why would the data bomb see you? If the data bomb can see you, why can't the firewall?

I don't have SR4A, but the description in SR4 is rather sparse.

a) Aye, the option's called Pavlov. Not as effective as a Singularity Encore, which will not only rearm an exploded Data Bomb, but will reset a diffused one.

b) I'd argue that you can have a bomb which explodes on Access, but it would first attach on entry and would only detonate when access is detected. So, you'd have to choose between disarming the bomb, when you notice it, or just making sure you stay hidden and get out before the oh-so-deadline.

The problem is that probably firewalls get probed by botnets or accessed in a faulty manner by a broken protocol just about every minute.. that generates a lot of nuisance and dubious positives.

That just made me think of something hilarious: Worm infected people getting completely jacked up just because they walked near a Seoulpa guy running Juhseung Saja IC. The Worm pings the Triad guy's com and gets busted by the firewall. The Juhseung Saja IC Traces the offending signal the guys com, Spoofs a copy over and starts killing all the guys friends and family as is its nature.

You must be able to perform rudimentary analysis to the node, otherwise you cannot tell that you have to decrypt it. You can detect that the node is Encrypted, therefore you must decrypt the node before you access it... Using this logic, you can obviously scan the access port... if you do not see the bomb, then yes, you are pretty screwed indeed... If you do not like the ability to "scan" the node prior to hacking it, then you use the idea that the obvious needs not scan... there is an obvious Databomb securing the node... either way works.

Also, Legitimate users would have the access codes embedded in their hardware most liksly, for a system that has this setup, so the databomb receives that confirmation upon logon to the node... hwoever, if you cannot provide the legitimate data, then BOOM... which is why you would need to defuse the bomb before hacking a log on...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

Again, you are not setting it on the Firewall... You are attaching the Databomb to a HArdware Access Gate... A Port, as it were... and the rules allow you to do such things...see the description of the Databomb... it may be attached to a File or Device... the node is the Device... therefore it must be on the gateway, as that is the only thing that you interact with on the entire node Hardware wise...

The Databomb does not see anything... it controls access... anything passing through without providing the codes gets "bombed"...

That is why there are such things as Gateways and chokepoints... you MUST pass through them, you cannot hack your way AROUND them... legitimate users have the proper coded information, so they are not a worry... illegitimate users, however, do not... and as such must Defuse the bomb before passing through the gateway...

Make any more Sense now?

Keep teh Faith

I think that you are missing the point... Firewall is Software... A Node's Gateway is Hardware... we are setting the Databomb on the Hardware side of the situation, not the Software side... and having the Databomb going off every 10 seconds is of no real concern to the normal users of the system, no more so than the firewall detecting an intruder attempt every 10 seconds or so...

Keep the Faith

Ok, but then how do you disarm the data bomb without being connected to the node? Or is it just a matter of "There's a data bomb on this node, I'm screwed"?

Again, you do not have actual access to the node (through the Gateway) until after you have hacked your way past the firewall... however, to do that you must pass through the gate... the Databomb is the dog guarding that gate... you feed it a milkbone to get it out of the way (Defuse it) so that you may enter the gate... if you forget to feed it the bone, it bites your head off...

Keep the Faith

I don't think a port is really a "Device" in the sense that Shadowrun uses the word "Device". A Device in Shadowrun is a whole system; it has its own Firewall, Reponse, System and Signal attributes. A drone is a device. A commlink is a device. I don't think the parts of a commlink are a device.

Again it is an abstraction... call your "port" a Node if you like, or an Access Point... Same BAsic Effects... you can detect if a node is encrypted prior to hacking (thus the requirement to decrypt before hacking) so by inference, you can detect the Databomb on the node before hacking as it is a defensive measure, much like the encryption was... Ergo... you must attempt to defuse the databomb before you hack the node... if you choose not to even look before you hack, the databomb goes off, prior tp the hack... this has the added benefit of probably killing the intruder if it si a powerful databomb, and also alerting hte system that something may be amiss... yes, you may get a lot of false positives...but if you design your system in such a way as to minimize these false positives, you will not be constantly on an alert status...

This security schema will not be applied to many (most) of your public access areas... as the amount of traffic that they encounter is prohibitive for such measures... but for those system areasa where Security is paramount, I can see this being applied to each and every node involved...

Your mileage may vary, but it is never a bad thing to take your time and make sure that you are not about to eat a truckload of damage just for accessing a secured node... on the Security side of things... anything that gives the system more time to single out and identify the Intruders is a good thing, and things that slow the intruder down are a cheap and easy way to do so (generally cheaper than full time, highly experienced Spiders, which the system will probably have as well, if it is a highly secured system)...

Will this catch everyone... absolutely not... Top Line Hackers (like many of the Hacker examples provided here on dumpshock) with there high ratings in Software and their hich ratings in teh Skills (5-10 Right?) should not have many problems with such a system, but it will slow them down, and may even catch on by surprise now and again, which is what they are designed to do... Those who are somewhat less gifted, on the other hand, will have the devil's own time trying to navigate such a system, as they will be triggering the security systems more often than not... especially for those high end facilities.