Do contacts, glasses or goggles intefere with spell casting?, Dev/writer ruling needed. Options

[The Jake]

Hi there

Quick question in need of a ruling - do contacts/glasses/goggles interfere with spells? My understanding is anything other than optical magnification = yes.

However while I know this to be true in older editions I'm not sure in SR4a. Cheers.

- J.

[Ol' Scratch]

They're contacts/goggles/glasses that just happen to have a HUD. They wouldn't interfer with anything.

[D2F]

Hi there

Quick question in need of a ruling - do contacts/glasses/goggles interfere with spells? My understanding is anything other than optical magnification = yes.

However while I know this to be true in older editions I'm not sure in SR4a. Cheers.

- J.

Optical devices can be used to cast spells through. So, in other words, if it is purely optical, yes, otherwise no. Low-Light vision CAN be optical so you could argue whether you could use goggles/glasses/lenses with LV to cast spells through, but IR and Ultrasound are a no-go.

You could use optical vision magnification, though.

[Mongoose]

Double post

[Ol' Scratch]

You have full control over your devices unless a hacker is involved. Willing the display aside/shutting it off/whatever takes but a thought. Since you have no need whatsoever for any of those visual mods, why keep them up when you're trying to focus on casting a spell? It's no different then flare compensation; it doesn't block your line of sight when shooting a pistol, and you don't have to wait for it to load up when you do need it. Ditto for all of the other vision mods that I can think of. If they were all active all the time, you'd probably go insane from the useless input. But when a situation comes up where you need them, there's no wait time in order to gain their benefits. Spellcasting is exactly the same thing, just in reverse.

[Mongoose]

They're contacts/goggles/glasses that just happen to have a HUD. They wouldn't interfer with anything.

Depends what the HUD does. If it completely blocks out the view of the target with some sort of AR overlay, then its certainly going to interfere, just like a blindfold would. That would potentially include cases where the AR overlay was a thermal or ultrasound image of the scene. Its likely that the ovelay would contain enough transparency to allow normal vision to be used for casting spells, but in that case you should use the normal vision adjustments (maybe with some cover from the overlay); the overlay can help you spot targets (so you get to use thermo / untrasound for perception tests) but it can't help you sling mojo (which can only be done optically).

[Mongoose]

As Funkenstien pointed out, a good option might be to run with full vision aids on, then switch them off when you want to cast a spell.

[DireRadiant]

Hi there

Quick question in need of a ruling - do contacts/glasses/goggles interfere with spells? My understanding is anything other than optical magnification = yes.

However while I know this to be true in older editions I'm not sure in SR4a. Cheers.

- J.

Are the devices transparent with image overlays? Then no problem.

If the devices are opaque, then you have a problem for casting.

[Ol' Scratch]

Why would a mage buy opaque ones?

[DireRadiant]

Why would a mage buy opaque ones?

To give to the other mage they are about to magically duel of course.

[KCKitsune]

Go with cybereyes and then you don't have to worry about your vision aid at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[The Jake]

I wish he would take cybereyes...

As far as I understand things, the enhancements are not overlays, but rather inbuilt into the glasses. Whether they are simply modes of vision that can be dismissed as a Free Action goes well beyond the scope of the rules. I'm sure that could be house ruled (and may well do so).

The player wanted a Poor Vision negative quality. One didn't exist so he and I came up with one that was reasonably balanced. He wore glasses (which could be knocked off his head in a fight or intense physical activities such as running) or whatever and we were happy with it. But now he's wanting to buy glasses with all sorts of vision mods and I just think its infringing on that quality or at least, dancing around the fringes waving a red flag in my face.

- J.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I wouldn't think that glasses would count against you, under the 'intent' of the law. It might be iffy as to the 'LETTER' of the law.

[The Jake]

I wouldn't think that glasses would count against you, under the 'intent' of the law. It might be iffy as to the 'LETTER' of the law.

Then whats the incentive to buy cybereyes? Maybe I'm missing something because of my headache...

- J.

[Ol' Scratch]

Because cybereyes lets you use some of those vision mods with the spellcasting. Kill the lights in the room and your mage is screwed over since he can only rely on his natural sight. If he had cybereyes, he could use low-light vision or thermographic vision to see his target and cast a spell.

[Pepsi Jedi]

The incentive is that the vast vast majority of people aren't mages. It says in the book more than once that cyber eyes are by and large and by far the most common augmentation in the world in 2070s. That it's not uncommon at all for people with perfectly working meat eyes to have them replaced with cybereyes. I know I would. In a heart beat. I'd have them installed YOUNG. And I'd upgrade just like I upgrade my computers every few years. Heck look at the prices. It's a few thousand and you're good to go. It's described as out patient treatment you can get done in a few hours one afternoon at the mall!

But back to the question. Magic users don't like augmentation and such in Shadowrun. That's always been a built in mechanic. It hurts them in their magic stuff and makes it 'harder' for them to do their magic.

Now sure, as players.. we go 'ok this piece of cyber wear has this much cost to our magical stuff" But as PEOPLE>. The mages do not. They know 'For each piece of metal that goes into my body (( or ceramic or what ever)) It's THAT MUCH HARDER for me to do magic. And magic is ---hard--- to start with. only 1 in 100 or so can even do it and most of those are adepts. To consider augmentation for them... would be like one of us considering donating a body part TODAY. (( not in 2070s)) It's a big big deal. And while once in a while it's needed. They might bite the bullet and DO it. It's a much more weighted decision.

In these cases, the glasses don't mess up that flow of magic and the fear of robbing them of their hard earned edge. That edge being magic. It'd be the same to say if a street sam...... took a magical button that let him see spirits, but it dumbed down his reflexes and cyberwear. They're very much not likely to take it. It's aginst who they ARE. Not just 'numbers on a sheet'.

[Method]

IIRC in previous editions there was a distinction between "optical" systems and "electronic" systems precisely for this reason. Optical systems were more expensive, but allowed casting. This was streamlined out in SR3 I believe.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Well.. again. I'm newly 'back' to SR. I've been gone for quite a while, but I think you can get bio systems or cloned systems or genetic enhancing in the augmentation book to.... give you alot of what cyber eyes do, but it's meat instead of metal.

No smart links or stuff but alot of the rest can be done. low light, better visual acuity, ect. And yeah it's much much more expensive.

[KCKitsune]

But back to the question. Magic users don't like augmentation and such in Shadowrun. That's always been a built in mechanic. It hurts them in their magic stuff and makes it 'harder' for them to do their magic.

Now sure, as players.. we go 'ok this piece of cyber wear has this much cost to our magical stuff" But as PEOPLE>. The mages do not. They know 'For each piece of metal that goes into my body (( or ceramic or what ever)) It's THAT MUCH HARDER for me to do magic. And magic is ---hard--- to start with. only 1 in 100 or so can even do it and most of those are adepts. To consider augmentation for them... would be like one of us considering donating a body part TODAY. (( not in 2070s)) It's a big big deal. And while once in a while it's needed. They might bite the bullet and DO it. It's a much more weighted decision.

Not a fair comparison. Today if you donate a body part it's gone forever. With magic and the effects cyberware, it is possible to "rebuild" your magic back to where it would be without the metal. The problem would be the mage that goes too far.

Also keep this in mind Jedi; Without a number of sustaining foci* the average mage is screwed in a fight. Yes he can throw a wiz bang uber fireball, but if the sammy guts him before he can blink then he is just that much worm food. Now for each sustaining focus the mage starts dealing with focus addiction. This will screw him over worse than the 'ware. At least with the 'ware it's a one time investment and then you have it constantly.

* == you need a focus for IP boosting, vision augmentation, armor buff, etc, etc.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Not a fair comparison. Today if you donate a body part it's gone forever. With magic and the effects cyberware, it is possible to "rebuild" your magic back to where it would be without the metal. The problem would be the mage that goes too far.

Also keep this in mind Jedi; Without a number of sustaining foci* the average mage is screwed in a fight. Yes he can throw a wiz bang uber fireball, but if the sammy guts him before he can blink then he is just that much worm food. Now for each sustaining focus the mage starts dealing with focus addiction. This will screw him over worse than the 'ware. At least with the 'ware it's a one time investment and then you have it constantly.

* == you need a focus for IP boosting, vision augmentation, armor buff, etc, etc.

But that's a dice and paper mechanic. Not a "Why wouldn't they" In game thing. You're talking about dice and stuff on a sheet vs a person thinking and how it affects them intrinsically.

In game, adding more cyber wear isn't going to get ya back. The only way back is the very very expensive cloned augmentation or bioware. And that stuff if you read the books is 1) newer 2) more expensive, and 3) higher chance of rejection or side effects.

As a mage body augmentation that risks your magic is going to be a last option sort of thing. They're much more likely to learn how to 'do ___' with magic than chrome.

[Muspellsheimr]

No. Simply using digitally augmented images or overlays does not in itself impair your ability to cast spells.

Digital overlays & augmentations (not payed for with Essence) cannot be used to target spells - you still need to be capable of seeing the target without the augmentation/overlay - but do not impede spellcasting - unless the augmentation/overlay replaces (instead of enhancing) your visual sensory input[i]. An example of the replacement would be something along the lines of vision magnification - it imposes a digitally magnified image over your normal view. An example of an augmented overlay would thermographic vision - it is taking images from the infrared spectrum and [i]adding it to your normal visual sensory input.

If there was a rule stating that only a single visual mode could be used at a time, then yes, it would impair spellcasting. There is not such a rule, so, as stated, unless it completely replaces your visual input with a digitally augmented image, or enhances it with an optically adjusted image, it does not affect spellcasting (beneficially or otherwise).

[Mongoose]

Are the devices transparent with image overlays? Then no problem.

If the devices are opaque, then you have a problem for casting.

By definition, image overlays aren't (entirely) transparent. So unless you shut them off or only run ones that's don't overly possible targets (which means no vision mods), you've got at least partial obstruction, no?

Go with cybereyes and then you don't have to worry about your vision aid at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Indeed, that seems the only way to get the full benefits of most vision mods for spellcasting.

IIRC in previous editions there was a distinction between "optical" systems and "electronic" systems precisely for this reason. Optical systems were more expensive, but allowed casting. This was streamlined out in SR3 I believe.

Well, with tech advancing to the level where you could build sub-wavelength CCD grids and do real-time processing on them, optics matter a lot less. Nobodies gonna bother making such systems commercially any more, I'd suspect. Besides which, some (like thermo) can't really be done optically, and others (lowlight) require (as a basic limit of physics) very bulky apparatus to do optically.

[Method]

But that's a dice and paper mechanic. Not a "Why wouldn't they" In game thing. You're talking about dice and stuff on a sheet vs a person thinking and how it affects them intrinsically.

I think the terms you are looking for are "metagaming" vs "roleplaying". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[toturi]

But that's a dice and paper mechanic. Not a "Why wouldn't they" In game thing. You're talking about dice and stuff on a sheet vs a person thinking and how it affects them intrinsically.

In game, adding more cyber wear isn't going to get ya back. The only way back is the very very expensive cloned augmentation or bioware. And that stuff if you read the books is 1) newer 2) more expensive, and 3) higher chance of rejection or side effects.

As a mage body augmentation that risks your magic is going to be a last option sort of thing. They're much more likely to learn how to 'do ___' with magic than chrome.

Knowing cyberware or bioware hurts your magic is as much as metagaming as it is roleplaying. Unless the enhancement takes out a significant portion of his magic, it is not likely that the character will feel it as much.

Rulewise, if you take a cybereye, you lose a point of Magic. For a mage that is strong in magic, he is going to wake up from surgery and go, "I feel a little off but I can still do mojo. I can still lift stuff with my mind. Let's see if I can get the nurse to go on a date..."

Roleplay wise, it is not as if enhancements are unheard of in mages. If Professor Stone on the faculty can live with his cybereyes and kick ass, why not you?

[D2F]

No. Simply using digitally augmented images or overlays does not in itself impair your ability to cast spells.

Digital overlays & augmentations (not payed for with Essence) cannot be used to target spells - you still need to be capable of seeing the target without the augmentation/overlay - but do not impede spellcasting - unless the augmentation/overlay replaces (instead of enhancing) your visual sensory input[i]. An example of the replacement would be something along the lines of vision magnification - it imposes a digitally magnified image over your normal view. An example of an augmented overlay would thermographic vision - it is taking images from the infrared spectrum and [i]adding it to your normal visual sensory input.

If there was a rule stating that only a single visual mode could be used at a time, then yes, it would impair spellcasting. There is not such a rule, so, as stated, unless it completely replaces your visual input with a digitally augmented image, or enhances it with an optically adjusted image, it does not affect spellcasting (beneficially or otherwise).

Not to be nitpicking, but would you please explain to me, how thermograpic overlyay does NOT block the rest of your visual field? You're wuite fond of rules and I respect that. On an international board across all kinds of groups and preferences the RAW are the only common ground and as such need to be our argumental basis. I understand that. However, there are no rules that specifically allow to use multiple vision modes simultaneously, either.
So the adjudicator here needs to be physical possibility (unless we talk about magic, obviously).
The way thermographic imaging devices work should be known to you (or anyone playing SR for that matter), buut just to avoid any misunderstandings, the device records infrared "light" and superimposes a color coded image to render the differences in temperature perceiveable to the human eye. The color code is based on a base temperature and the maximum disparities therefrom.
To avoid confusion from the different colors and to render the picture more "familiar" the military often uses a monochrome color coding rather than a polychrome one.
All that said, the entire thermal information is superimposed, meaning the entire field of view is replaced by the thermal image.

If you have any information to the contrary, I'd welcome a link as I am unfamiliar with any such technology or even how to implement it.