Hi there

Quick question in need of a ruling - do contacts/glasses/goggles interfere with spells? My understanding is anything other than optical magnification = yes.

However while I know this to be true in older editions I'm not sure in SR4a. Cheers.

- J.

They're contacts/goggles/glasses that just happen to have a HUD. They wouldn't interfer with anything.

Optical devices can be used to cast spells through. So, in other words, if it is purely optical, yes, otherwise no. Low-Light vision CAN be optical so you could argue whether you could use goggles/glasses/lenses with LV to cast spells through, but IR and Ultrasound are a no-go.

You could use optical vision magnification, though.

Double post

You have full control over your devices unless a hacker is involved. Willing the display aside/shutting it off/whatever takes but a thought. Since you have no need whatsoever for any of those visual mods, why keep them up when you're trying to focus on casting a spell? It's no different then flare compensation; it doesn't block your line of sight when shooting a pistol, and you don't have to wait for it to load up when you do need it. Ditto for all of the other vision mods that I can think of. If they were all active all the time, you'd probably go insane from the useless input. But when a situation comes up where you need them, there's no wait time in order to gain their benefits. Spellcasting is exactly the same thing, just in reverse.

Depends what the HUD does. If it completely blocks out the view of the target with some sort of AR overlay, then its certainly going to interfere, just like a blindfold would. That would potentially include cases where the AR overlay was a thermal or ultrasound image of the scene. Its likely that the ovelay would contain enough transparency to allow normal vision to be used for casting spells, but in that case you should use the normal vision adjustments (maybe with some cover from the overlay); the overlay can help you spot targets (so you get to use thermo / untrasound for perception tests) but it can't help you sling mojo (which can only be done optically).

As Funkenstien pointed out, a good option might be to run with full vision aids on, then switch them off when you want to cast a spell.

Are the devices transparent with image overlays? Then no problem.

If the devices are opaque, then you have a problem for casting.

Why would a mage buy opaque ones?

To give to the other mage they are about to magically duel of course.

Go with cybereyes and then you don't have to worry about your vision aid at all.

I wish he would take cybereyes...

As far as I understand things, the enhancements are not overlays, but rather inbuilt into the glasses. Whether they are simply modes of vision that can be dismissed as a Free Action goes well beyond the scope of the rules. I'm sure that could be house ruled (and may well do so).

The player wanted a Poor Vision negative quality. One didn't exist so he and I came up with one that was reasonably balanced. He wore glasses (which could be knocked off his head in a fight or intense physical activities such as running) or whatever and we were happy with it. But now he's wanting to buy glasses with all sorts of vision mods and I just think its infringing on that quality or at least, dancing around the fringes waving a red flag in my face.

- J.

I wouldn't think that glasses would count against you, under the 'intent' of the law. It might be iffy as to the 'LETTER' of the law.

Then whats the incentive to buy cybereyes? Maybe I'm missing something because of my headache...

- J.

Because cybereyes lets you use some of those vision mods with the spellcasting. Kill the lights in the room and your mage is screwed over since he can only rely on his natural sight. If he had cybereyes, he could use low-light vision or thermographic vision to see his target and cast a spell.

The incentive is that the vast vast majority of people aren't mages. It says in the book more than once that cyber eyes are by and large and by far the most common augmentation in the world in 2070s. That it's not uncommon at all for people with perfectly working meat eyes to have them replaced with cybereyes. I know I would. In a heart beat. I'd have them installed YOUNG. And I'd upgrade just like I upgrade my computers every few years. Heck look at the prices. It's a few thousand and you're good to go. It's described as out patient treatment you can get done in a few hours one afternoon at the mall!

But back to the question. Magic users don't like augmentation and such in Shadowrun. That's always been a built in mechanic. It hurts them in their magic stuff and makes it 'harder' for them to do their magic.

Now sure, as players.. we go 'ok this piece of cyber wear has this much cost to our magical stuff" But as PEOPLE>. The mages do not. They know 'For each piece of metal that goes into my body (( or ceramic or what ever)) It's THAT MUCH HARDER for me to do magic. And magic is ---hard--- to start with. only 1 in 100 or so can even do it and most of those are adepts. To consider augmentation for them... would be like one of us considering donating a body part TODAY. (( not in 2070s)) It's a big big deal. And while once in a while it's needed. They might bite the bullet and DO it. It's a much more weighted decision.

In these cases, the glasses don't mess up that flow of magic and the fear of robbing them of their hard earned edge. That edge being magic. It'd be the same to say if a street sam...... took a magical button that let him see spirits, but it dumbed down his reflexes and cyberwear. They're very much not likely to take it. It's aginst who they ARE. Not just 'numbers on a sheet'.

IIRC in previous editions there was a distinction between "optical" systems and "electronic" systems precisely for this reason. Optical systems were more expensive, but allowed casting. This was streamlined out in SR3 I believe.

Well.. again. I'm newly 'back' to SR. I've been gone for quite a while, but I think you can get bio systems or cloned systems or genetic enhancing in the augmentation book to.... give you alot of what cyber eyes do, but it's meat instead of metal.

No smart links or stuff but alot of the rest can be done. low light, better visual acuity, ect. And yeah it's much much more expensive.

Not a fair comparison. Today if you donate a body part it's gone forever. With magic and the effects cyberware, it is possible to "rebuild" your magic back to where it would be without the metal. The problem would be the mage that goes too far.

Also keep this in mind Jedi; Without a number of sustaining foci* the average mage is screwed in a fight. Yes he can throw a wiz bang uber fireball, but if the sammy guts him before he can blink then he is just that much worm food. Now for each sustaining focus the mage starts dealing with focus addiction. This will screw him over worse than the 'ware. At least with the 'ware it's a one time investment and then you have it constantly.

* == you need a focus for IP boosting, vision augmentation, armor buff, etc, etc.

But that's a dice and paper mechanic. Not a "Why wouldn't they" In game thing. You're talking about dice and stuff on a sheet vs a person thinking and how it affects them intrinsically.

In game, adding more cyber wear isn't going to get ya back. The only way back is the very very expensive cloned augmentation or bioware. And that stuff if you read the books is 1) newer 2) more expensive, and 3) higher chance of rejection or side effects.

As a mage body augmentation that risks your magic is going to be a last option sort of thing. They're much more likely to learn how to 'do ___' with magic than chrome.

No. Simply using digitally augmented images or overlays does not in itself impair your ability to cast spells.

Digital overlays & augmentations (not payed for with Essence) cannot be used to target spells - you still need to be capable of seeing the target without the augmentation/overlay - but do not impede spellcasting - unless the augmentation/overlay replaces (instead of enhancing) your visual sensory input[i]. An example of the replacement would be something along the lines of vision magnification - it imposes a digitally magnified image over your normal view. An example of an augmented overlay would thermographic vision - it is taking images from the infrared spectrum and [i]adding it to your normal visual sensory input.

If there was a rule stating that only a single visual mode could be used at a time, then yes, it would impair spellcasting. There is not such a rule, so, as stated, unless it completely replaces your visual input with a digitally augmented image, or enhances it with an optically adjusted image, it does not affect spellcasting (beneficially or otherwise).

By definition, image overlays aren't (entirely) transparent. So unless you shut them off or only run ones that's don't overly possible targets (which means no vision mods), you've got at least partial obstruction, no?



Indeed, that seems the only way to get the full benefits of most vision mods for spellcasting.



Well, with tech advancing to the level where you could build sub-wavelength CCD grids and do real-time processing on them, optics matter a lot less. Nobodies gonna bother making such systems commercially any more, I'd suspect. Besides which, some (like thermo) can't really be done optically, and others (lowlight) require (as a basic limit of physics) very bulky apparatus to do optically.

I think the terms you are looking for are "metagaming" vs "roleplaying".

Knowing cyberware or bioware hurts your magic is as much as metagaming as it is roleplaying. Unless the enhancement takes out a significant portion of his magic, it is not likely that the character will feel it as much.

Rulewise, if you take a cybereye, you lose a point of Magic. For a mage that is strong in magic, he is going to wake up from surgery and go, "I feel a little off but I can still do mojo. I can still lift stuff with my mind. Let's see if I can get the nurse to go on a date..."

Roleplay wise, it is not as if enhancements are unheard of in mages. If Professor Stone on the faculty can live with his cybereyes and kick ass, why not you?

Not to be nitpicking, but would you please explain to me, how thermograpic overlyay does NOT block the rest of your visual field? You're wuite fond of rules and I respect that. On an international board across all kinds of groups and preferences the RAW are the only common ground and as such need to be our argumental basis. I understand that. However, there are no rules that specifically allow to use multiple vision modes simultaneously, either.
So the adjudicator here needs to be physical possibility (unless we talk about magic, obviously).
The way thermographic imaging devices work should be known to you (or anyone playing SR for that matter), buut just to avoid any misunderstandings, the device records infrared "light" and superimposes a color coded image to render the differences in temperature perceiveable to the human eye. The color code is based on a base temperature and the maximum disparities therefrom.
To avoid confusion from the different colors and to render the picture more "familiar" the military often uses a monochrome color coding rather than a polychrome one.
All that said, the entire thermal information is superimposed, meaning the entire field of view is replaced by the thermal image.

If you have any information to the contrary, I'd welcome a link as I am unfamiliar with any such technology or even how to implement it.

"Most" people are not adepts. In all likelyhood they have Astral Sight, Spirit/Spell Knack, or the other small benefits (along with latent awakening). Of the remaining, a majority are (probably) adepts, though I can't recall where that idea came from. (Seems that spellcasting is a lot more common than ninja track stars, besides in the Triads.)

See I don't see it that way. I see it as mages telling their students. "If you get chromed up, you will loose significant portions of your mystical ability." and you're learning magic from them, this hard arcane stuff. This mystical stuff that only 1 in 100 can do and probably only 1 in 100 of those do martial things with. So you're talking about training from 1 in 10,000 people, to learn how to be combative with your magic. And if someone tells you, "Getting chromed up messes up your magical ability" and you see it in your training. This is the person that taught you to bend reality to your will and work the magical whoo. It's not metagaming to know that, any more than it's meta gaming to go "I'd really rather not be shot by an Ares Predator. Those bullets sting something fierce" Or "Never deal with a dragon" It's common knowledge in the circles that Runners run in. "Chrome fraks up the Mage's voodoo" Does it happen? yes. But not often nor extensively.

I do not disagree that it would be common knowledge that implantation is detrimental to magic. What I am saying that knowledge that implantation is detrimental to magic is as much roleplaying as much as it is metagaming.

On a quick sidenote:

-If you are astrally perceiving and you wear contact lenses, you are blind.
-If you are astrally perceiving and you wear glasses, you are blind until you take them off.
-If you are astrally perceiving and you wear goggles, you are blind until you take them off.
ect.

I disagree. "Eseence" is as much a sixth world term as it is an SR rules term. While your average 6th world denizen isn't going to measure Essence in numbers, he will most certainly know about lowered essence, essence drain and the balance between essence and magic. Essence may not be perfectly quantifyable, but the mere concept of Cybermancy is proof that essence loss is a known phenomenon in the sixth world. Even further proof are the genetic treatments to regain lost essence.

Knowing about essence and magic and their interaction with each other, it is plausible that a magical practitioner will know about the consequences of augmentations and their consequences for his magical abilities.

Metagaming would assume you use knowledge your character cannot have. This is not the case here. It is not a case of "well it's a little both". It's not metagaming at all.

Well, one option would be to do something like run edge detection on the thermal image, and overlay that in the optics. That way, you'd see "outlines" around objects whose temp makes them stand out from the background. It could still clutter up the image and obscure fine details, and wouldn't help with spellcasting, but it shouldn't HURT spellcasting (at least not much).
I know that military systems do typically have "outline" modes in addition to monochrome / false color, etc. Not sure if they overly the outline on a normal "visible spectrum" view, but doing so would be pretty simple. That would be shown on a viewscreen, obviously, but its surely not a stretch to say that you could put the outlines over an optical view using AR technology.

How does this work with the fact a Blind person can astrally perceive? And that when a Mage astrally perceives they do not have normal vision anyway? They don't get both senses.

Keep in mind that transparent devices with image overlays can become opaque, but are not always so.

On mages with cybereyes:

People smoke/drink/drug/eat/etc themselves to death all the time. Professional athletes train and compete until their joints are shot or they have a career ending injury. We "damage" ourselves everyday for gain and profit. Its not like its against human nature to do things that are advantageous in the short term but end up being detrimental in the long run (I would even argue that *is* human nature, but I'm biased).

To be honest, that is more how I envision vision enhancement (yes, I know the description of vision enhancement says "sharper vision", but that's utter bullshit).

Your proposal would reduce the amount of thermographic vision at your disposal. It would result in a significantly weaker thermographic image.
Looking over the visibility modifier table again, however, you appear to be right. Otherwise the different modifier for full darkness and partial darkness for thermographic vision would make absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

No, they don't, but the glasses/lenses/goggles are opaque on the astral plane.

You are assuming that astral sense is in a persons eyes?

My (astral) "sight" comes from between my eyeballs. I assume you've heard of the third eye.

So, how does Goggles/Glasses/Contacts get in the way?

Also, "Wecomes to the FUTURE!" I'm always surprised when people assume there won't be improvements in technology in the next 60 years. (This is directed towards the thermal overlay part of the discussion.)

There is nothing in the rules that says it is not. Astral perception is more than just visual perception, as it covers at least hearing and tactile information as well. But there no reason to assume that the receptors of astral information are anywhere other than the astral versions of their real life counterparts. Since during astral perception your aura is still very well in sync with your meat body, glasses, goggles and lenses would be directly in the way of your astral vision and therefore blind you.

Foct is: lenses, glasses and goggle are opaque on the astral plane (as are car windows for that matter).

If you have any single indication as to why the astral sense should not be in the same locations of the astral body as the physical senses are on the meat body, then by all means, share you sources. I am happy for any and all new information. However, I will not accept "it's magic, it works differently" as an answer unless you can prove to me that it works differently.


No, it doesn't. The "third eye" is an esoteric concept outside of the SR universe and as such has no impact on the game's rules.

Furthermore, since SR's astral plane allows for depth perception a single "organ" would hardly be sufficient.

Really. So your position is:

1. Tradition affects spirits and drain stat (for example), but nothing else.
2. That the "third eye" is a "new" invention, since the divergence of the Shadowrun and real world timelines?

Fine then. Quote where it says that astral "sight" means eyeballs.

I don't have to. It's the null hypothesis. You have to prove that it's different.

No, I really don't. You have no proof they are linked, thus, you need to prove it. Just as I need to show evidence for my side.
I have noticed you do -love- to try that every time you're making an arguement.

Btw:

People without eyeballs can astrally perceive.

The rules don't say my psychic sense is not in my left toenail.

My tactile sense is on my skin, my hearing is in ears, are my psychic hearing and tactile sense blocked if I wear earmuffs and a full body suit?

While perceiving the mundane world with mundane senses, a variety of enhancements improve mundane perception by adding dice to your pools. In past editions it was noted that those bonuses only applied if they were optical; if they were electronic they did not help. The current edition drops this distinction. In no edition of the game that I can recall is it even hinted that these perception aids would hinder spell casting.

Contacts, glasses, and goggles do not block your vision, nor do they replace it, they simply enhance it. One could therefore argue that the bonuses would not apply on a perception test to establish line-of-sight for spellcasting purposes, but there is no reason to believe they would be a penalty.

As for astral perception, while it is often described in terms of vision, it is not based in the eyes (or ears, etc for that matter). Street Magic has the following to say:

It is important to remember that assensing is a psychic sense. Though it is often referred to and experienced in visual terms, it is not entirely the same as physical sight (which is why blind magicians and ghouls can assense without penalty). Assensing also picks up other sensory input that is sometimes experienced in a way commonly associated with taste, smell, hearing, and touch, but in other ways is quite different. The emotional content of what is perceived, as well as the living and magical energies, are much more relevant than the physical sensation. For example, a room may “taste” happy if numerous people have been rejoicing there, while a long-deserted building may “smell” like desolation and lifelessness, and the aura of a spell with “tingle” with energy and purpose. Though astral forms and constructs may be “touched,” this is perceived as a flood of emotions and energies rather than a physical contact. Characters may converse and be heard in astral space, and language is still a communication barrier there, but an assensing character will be struck more by the emotive content rather than by the words themselves. It is also possible to eavesdrop on the noises, communications, and even smells of the physical world from the astral plane, but just like reading a physical book, the assensing character will perceive the emotional tone and impressions rather than the physical sensation.

Street Magic also notes that astral shadows can penalize astral perception tests. Having said all that, a Magemask (Arsenal, p. 66) is a hood and white noise generator that completely encloses the head. While it does block perception of the mundane world, it only forces a Willpower + Intuition (4) Test to perform magic, or shift to the astral.

Put all of this together and one can surmise that in the mundane contacts/glasses/goggles do not hinder spellcasting, but may not help. Astrally, they would not block astral perception, but a GM could argue for a small penalty.

You do realize that especially your last quote says nothing wbout the matter at hand, right?
Also it seems that you are not familiar with the concept of the burden of proof. Burden of proof lies with the claim, not the base assumption.
The base assumption is already amply supported by occam\'s razor.´



No one here argues that astral perception is linked to the physical organ. Astral projection alone kills that idea. The argument is that the location of the astral sense is on the comparable location on the astral body as it\'s physical counterpart is on the meat body. That is the hypothesis that requires the least additional assumptions and is therefore the most desireably and the most plausible. Ergo: null hypothesis.

Why does it require the least additional assumptions? Because astrally perceiving/projecting characters don\'t suffer from nausea, dizzyness, vertigo and/or disorientation, as their mind tries to shift spatial perception to different sources of origin.



Up until your last two sentences you were right. Now let me tell you, why your assumption in the last two sentences are inadequate:

1.) The magemask allows for mental actions if you succeed in your roll. Nowhere does it say it allows you target spells.


Keep in mind that "using magic" covers more than just casting spells. It includes issuing commands to spirits, summoning, banishing, astral projection, astral perception, ect.). Nowhere does it say that you are allowed to target spells while you wear a magemask.

2.) The nature of astral perception is magic. Obviously it is not "sight" in the sense of interpreting incoming electromagnetic frequencies on a basis of 3 colors and a degree of shades. The argument is not about the nature of said "vision", but the location. For your mind to be able to form a percept of your environment without sideffects like vertigo, disorientation and nausea the sources of the information need to be in comparable locations.
The fact that no ill effects accompany astral perception or projection and the fact that you can still walk while astrally perceiving support the assumption that the location of the senses are in comparable locations to their physical counterparts.

3.) Your entire argument as to why goggles/glasses/lenses would not block astral perception is based on a false premise (see point 1).


To move a step backwards from just disseminating your arguments, let me provide you with an excemple:

Transparent physical objects are opaque (and insubstantial) on the astral plane:

Now imagine your character, astrally perceiving, standing in front of a shop window, trying to cast a spell at a target behind it. Can he do so? No.
Well, so far so good, after all, the shopwindow provides a wall sized visual barrier, so not the best excemple but we're just getting started.
Now imagine your character (still astrally perceiving) standing behind a street sign, the street sign right in front of it's face and on the other side the target. Can the character now cast a spell at it? Still no, as the visbility is still impaired. Why is it still impaired? Because the way SR treats astral, visibility is based on the same concepts as physical visibility. As the object blocks your "view", it prevents you from targeting your spell. Don\'t believe me? Let me quote the relevant rules section for you, then:


It uses the same rules for visbility and cover that the physical combat uses (with the obvious exception of lighting conditions, which have to be applied to astral "light sources", instead).

Now, the glasses are right in front of your character, blocking his vision. You can't traget spells through contact lenses, while astrally perceiving (you can while astrally projecting, but that's a completely different story)

But if you agree that astral perception is not sight based, then how can you assume that goggles/contacts/glasses would block it? Those items are strictly optical devises. And since the book states that blind people can astrally perceive, then it is a given that optics of any kind are not required. I would say that it is something akin to ultrasonic vision. Your brain interprets the data received as vision when in fact it is reception of sonic pulses.

I added an excemple to my previous post, because I already noticed where the confusion came from. You were simply too fast to respond My apologies for not supplying one sooner.

Btw, glasses would provide a problem for Ultrasonic vision as well =) In the case of Ultrasonic vision, however, the book specifically mentions that you can superimpose the US image over your regular vision. An option expressivley forbidden for astral perception.

Edit: In clearer words: If you have Ultrasound Cyberware installed and you also wear a helmet with a Visor AND you would not superimpose the image over your regular vision but instead of your regular vision (an option specifically mentioned in the relevant section entry), the Visor would block your vision, effectively blinding you:

The claim that astral perception is blocked by the physical presence of contacts/glasses/goggles absolutely requires that astral perception is explicitly linked to physical eyeballs. There is no such statement in SR4A.

However, it is explicit in SR4A that physical eyeballs are not required for astral senses.

Classic false dilemma here. How exactly does it need to be linked to physical eyeballs? I repeatedly mentioned that it does not have to be and that it is not. It merely requires that the origin of sensory information on your astral body needs to correlate with the origin of seonsory information on your meat body. That is a massive difference.

Also, a false dilemma is a logical fallcy and renders your argument invalid.

The exact effect -1 magic is metagaming, knowing it is effected is roleplaying. I'd say, most mages don't implant. What Shadowrunning mages and security mages do can be different since they have different priorities. you don't need thermovision if your job is teaching spell basics at the community college. Personally though I doubt I'd go much into cyber if i was mage i'd only cyber up to replace or fix something damaged beyond repair. You can kind of see your soul, and seeing black corrupted holes in my soul would likely put me off a bit. It would be like the unpleasantness of being heavier than you like x1000.

Side note when it come to mages getting cyber eyes. How does just going astral perception fit in as a alternative. Even with thermo/low light you usually are at penalty dice in bad situations, just reduced penalty dice. Astral perception is -2 dice I think for your magical actions(no book near me) that seems like a decent alternative if you don't want to lose magic. But I don't really know how it works, are you still only -2 in smoke, when its totally dark, after getting hit by a flash pack, and whatever other mods I can't think up. On the same level I guess you get hit harder by FAB grenades. And yes, now you have to worry about spirits and astral snipers.