I know Kung Fu, technomancer + skillwires Options

[bernardo]

Alice is a wageslave working and living inside a corp. She is so alienated from her own life that even the skills she needs to do her job are not hers, they were implanted via skillwires. But one day she begins to see things. She has emerged, she don't know it but she is now a technomancer. She com see all the information about her job, messages beeing exchanged by her coleagues, all the data floating around her. And she doesn't like what she sees. That's when she leaves the corp life and runs into the shadows.

That is the concept of a character I'm thinking about. Wich leads me to the question: can a technomancer who has skillwires installed learn a complex form that works like skillsoft? I'm asking that because Alice has no skills to make her survive in the shadows (combat skills, stealth skills...) and she will buy them as skillsofts. But as a technomancer I think she could learn a complex form based on the skillsoft she bought and thread it to highr levels. So, in a crucial moment when she is cornered and has to fight for her life she starts to download all the data she can grab from the matrix about self defense, including wuxia movies, and adds that data to her unarmed combat complex form. The complex form tells the skillwires how her muscles should react and, looking her oponnent with a surprized face, she says "I know Kung Fu" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

So, anyone knows if this is possible by the rules?

[Dumori]

Yes however you can get an echo that give you skill wires for free then some more echos that turn the in to wires of the none skill type. Unwired and the chats with the devs form just after its release have all the data. How ever you will still be limited hardware wise.

[Mongoose]

Threading increases the rating of a complex form, right? The problem I see is that Activesofts are limited to rating 4. Now, is that the limit on what you can buy, or what can exist? Lets say its just the limit on what you can buy. OK, so you pump the complex form up to 8... and have rating 6 skillwires. Crud.

So yeah, I guess as long as you stay below your skillwires rating with the (threaded) complex form, you are good to go.

[The Jake]

A Rating 4 skillsoft also cost 40k unless pirated.

- J.

[Stahlseele]

And even if pirated, it's still 4k right?
Also, no updates/patches and SOTA.

[Mongoose]

Complex forms don't need patches and are always SOTA, neh?

[Valashar]

It can be done one of two ways: Either use threading to make a temporary sustained complex form of the skillsoft via emulation, or do that and make it permanent by spending karma equal to the skillsoft rating (Emulation; Unwired pg 149). Now while this as stated only applies to TMs with the biowire echo, the Adopting Software sidebar on page 136 could also apply (a TM with skillwires would count as having the needed hardware to run the skillsoft program. And yes, once it's a complex form, then it's always considered to be SOTA.

About getting a skillsoft as a permanent CF and then threading it further, afaik there is now RAW on this and I've always been leery about allowing it as a GM or doing it as a player. But one thing I do always do when my TM emulates a skillsoft is to make sure it has the DIMAP option (Unwired pg 117: allows the use of Edge to reroll a failed test, where normally Edge cannot be used with wired skills).

[Udoshi]

About getting a skillsoft as a permanent CF and then threading it further, afaik there is now RAW on this and I've always been leery about allowing it as a GM or doing it as a player. But one thing I do always do when my TM emulates a skillsoft is to make sure it has the DIMAP option (Unwired pg 117: allows the use of Edge to reroll a failed test, where normally Edge cannot be used with wired skills).

See the Unwired errata. Once you learn a skillsoft as a CF, it basically can't be improved. Nothing, however, prevents a TM from breaking the skillsoft's copy protection, coding the options they want up, patching them into the CF, and then learning it. CF's dont degrade, and are always SOTA, which means using pirated skillsofts has basically no downside for a TM using this method.

On the other hand, at one karma per rating and option, a personalized, pluscoded, dimaped activesoft is only 7 karma for a rating 5 skill. What a bargian! If you have an edge of 4, you can throw in Overdrive 1 at no risk, or if you're a Lucky Human with edge 8, Overdrive 2. Overdrive requires an Edge(Rating) test to turn off, and if you fail it you -permanently damage your hardware-. If you're going to use it - and it is good - make sure your edge is high enough to buy hits for it, always, especially as a TM.

At the OP:
The problem TM's have using and converting activesofts is, as usual, Storage Space. TM's simply don't have any. This can be fixed rather easily by a datajack, however, and as a former wageslave your Alice would almost certainly have minor augmentation to help get through the day. I would probably get a Cerebral Booster as well, because you're going to need the expanded logic to learn your Activesoft CF's due to the CF-limit-at-chargen(2xlogic), and also use German Karmagen, out of runner's companion. The actually non-typed, most balanced version is Attribute = 5xkarma, race cost in karma=bp cost.

Hope that helps.

[Shinobi Killfist]

On the other hand, at one karma per rating and option, a personalized, pluscoded, dimaped activesoft is only 7 karma for a rating 5 skill. What a bargian! If you have an edge of 4, you can throw in Overdrive 1 at no risk, or if you're a Lucky Human with edge 8, Overdrive 2. Overdrive requires an Edge(Rating) test to turn off, and if you fail it you -permanently damage your hardware-. If you're going to use it - and it is good - make sure your edge is high enough to buy hits for it, always, especially as a TM.

God I hate those rules with a passion. The upgraded skillwires in unwired were bad enough but the technomancer version is just absurd.

[Ol' Scratch]

On the other hand, at one karma per rating and option, a personalized, pluscoded, dimaped activesoft is only 7 karma for a rating 5 skill. What a bargian!

I'm not sure how it's much of a bargain considering you still have to pay for the skillsoft itself. Which, being personalized, also means it's utterly useless afterwards. So you're paying the Karma cost for submerging and gaining the echo, then another 7 or more Karma + Skillsoft Cost per skill while someone with Skillwires is paying a one-time-only low Essence and nuyen cost, plus just the Skillsoft Cost per skill. I'm pretty sure the latter is getting the bargain, not the technomancer. Nevermind that they can just get a Skillwire Expert System and save even more on each skillsoft.

[Emy]

I believe buying hits is pretty much only supposed to happen in non-stressful and unimportant situations. You'd better have a few points invested in Charisma and Con to convince the GM to let you buy hits on a test where failure is so potentially disastrous.

[Dwight]

"I know Kung Fu"

Kung Fu, the Dane Cook of martial arts?

[Valashar]

See the Unwired errata.

Thanks for pointing me to this. Didn't know about it before today (or if I did, my leaky brainpan lost it along with last week's hockey scores).

[Udoshi]

I'm not sure how it's much of a bargain considering you still have to pay for the skillsoft itself. Which, being personalized, also means it's utterly useless afterwards. So you're paying the Karma cost for submerging and gaining the echo, then another 7 or more Karma + Skillsoft Cost per skill while someone with Skillwires is paying a one-time-only low Essence and nuyen cost, plus just the Skillsoft Cost per skill. I'm pretty sure the latter is getting the bargain, not the technomancer. Nevermind that they can just get a Skillwire Expert System and save even more on each skillsoft.

The real cost-innefective thing for a TM is submerging two or three , even four times so biowires actually has a decent rating to run things on. Cost is not really an issue, pirated activesofts only cost 1/10th their regular cost. Rating times 10k(4th anniversary edition), or rating times 3k(4th edition) isn't too bad, and it comes with the copy protection removed, so a TM can code and patch their own options in to reduce cost.

Let's compare it to a regular person, and a chipped-up individual. I'm using the RC karmagen to keep tabs on it, and compare costs. Namely, the important value to keep in mind is 1 karma = 2500 nuyen.

Skillwires. This is the standard-user we're comparing to everything. It costs Rating times 2k nuyen.
Basic Grade, Skillwire 3 is the highest you may start with, costing 6000(2-3 karma) and .6 essence. For the sake of the example, i'm using the max rating.
Basic Grade, skillwire 5 costs 10karma for restricted gear, and another four for the cost(10000)
a skillwire expert system on top of that is a nobrainer for one karma, at 3000Y/0.1 Essence
so, five karma for the hardware, and another ten if you count the quality = 15.
Add a handful(i rolled a d6 for this, 6) activesofts at rating 4, for 40000 nuyen(16 karma) each.
Now we add our Options. They cost rating times 1000, with unrated options counting as 3. We'll skip dimap, because we don't need it, but use personalized, pluscode 3, and overdrive 1 instead. (Normally, this would be availability 14). That's seven rating points for each activesoft, of which there are six, which adds 42000 nuyen(16.8 karma) to the cost.
48 total so far. Not too bad. Bargian buy, when you think about what that would cost to learn normally. Taking a skill to 4 the old-fashioned way costs 22 karma.(its levelx2), or 132 karma for six skills at 4. (If they happend to be skillgroupable, that'd be 55 each instead)

Now, for the technomancer. First, we need to submerge. We can reduce the costs by 20%, round up, with an technomancer network. Another possible discount is a submersion task for another 20%, round up. We need at least biowire 4 to use Emulated activesofts at its full level, so that's what i'll be shooting for. Submersion costs 10+3xgrade. For the purposes of this example, i'll be applying both discounts - since we're illustrating how cheap skillwires are, I should show how cheap biowires can be.
First grade is 13. 11 with one discount, 9 with two.
Second is 16, 13(20%), 11(40%)
third is 19, 16(20%), 13(40%)
Fourth is 22, 18(20%), 15(40%) 48 total karma so far, which is the sum total of a the skillwire+program cost, above. Everything after here is free lunch. We also have three extra echoes to spend, which very well could be spent on Acceleration to give us +3 passes/+3 reaction, which is, essentially, a no-essence no-money synaptic booster 3 for the same cost. Just saying.

Between Software Skill(which should be high for threading), Rush Jobs, Edge, Programming Environments and Machine Sprites with the Software autosoft helping out, I'm going to assume that a TM can code their own Personalized option from scratch. I'm labeling it as General, cause it sure isn't a hacking option, which means it only needs 3 hits in a month long test to make. Ditto DIMAP, and Overdrive 1 needs only 1 hit. Pfah. Easy. So easy, we're going to use the magic of Sprite Linking to make a Machine Sprite 6(Rolling 12 dice, buying 3 hits at 1 month each, or half that if you pay someone 100Y a day for programming environment access, which we are) do it for us, so we don't have to. This costs 6 karma, and 1400Y per option(+2 karma), and we also get this sucker to sling code for 10.5 more months. Sweet.
Now we can start learning Emulated Complex forms. That would normally be 40000 each activesoft, but we're pirating it, so its only 4000 each, 24000 total, which comes out to ten karma in cash. Actaully learning them needs a Threading(Skillsoft) rating test, which is 7 in our case, due to options.(This is what edge is for), and costs "Karma equal to the rating(+1 for any program options or program option rating)", which is also 7, for six activesofts, which is comes out to 42 more karma. 7 per skill at 4 is FAR less than 22 per skill at 4. Bargian deal.

The grand total is 98: 48(Submersion)+42(activesofts)+8(cash for the above). For comparison, that'd be 120 if all the submersions were at full price, without any discounts. So, twice as expensive in the end as a comparable Skillwire setup. Almost as expensive as learning the skills normally.

Except....

Remeber that rating 6 machine sprite we've got hanging around for a little less than 256 days? We can have that guy sit in our biological node and Assist Operation on any one of those CF's at a time, raising its rating by six, meaning we effectively have a skill at ten. Suck on that, skillboosting adepts.

Oh. Wait. We can do that with a single-submersion biowire, raising an emulated activesoft 1 to 7 with a sprite, and we don't even have to pay for Aptitude.

Yeah, biowires are good. Different, but good.

[Ol' Scratch]

You missed a whole bunch of things.

First, Technomancers can't normally start the game with grades. That requires house rules. So trying to say they can do that, but trying to slip in Restricted Gear as an extra cost for skillwires is patently absurd. Especially since any GM allowing submerging should be letting characters go beyond the Availability limitations, too.

Second, I seriously doubt you'd be able to find personalized skillsofts that are being pirated. It may or may not be against the rules, but it sure is against logic and sensibility. Not that it really matters since anything the technomancer can buy in that regard, a skillwire-using character can, too.

Third, assuming you're allowed to create your own skillsofts at home (another iffy topic in and of itself), all that massive amount of time you waste doing that could have been spent running multiple real jobs in the shadows, allowing you to buy the skillsofts anyway.

Fourth, technomancers can benefit from skillwires, too. I don't know why you seem to be arguing that it's TM+Biowires vs. NonTM+Skillwires. If I were a TM, I'd be much more interested in several of the other echoes for that reason alone. Especially since skillwires are far cheaper and easier to use. Doubly so since you can incorporate that loss of one point Resonance with boosts to your technomantic or combat prowess through other minor implants -- which include implants that many shadowrunning techonmancers acquire anyway. So the loss would have been there one way or another.

In the end, you haven't really shown much of anything to the biowire's benefit. Acquiring skillwires during character creation is viable in all situations and is dirt cheap (0.48 Essence and 12,000 nuyen), acquiring biowires requires special GM permission and still costs a lot more (~40 Karma and an echo) just to match the skillwires you can get at chargen. The skillsofts themselves are required and both users have equal capabilities of acquiring them, and they can all benefit from machine sprites and the like, too, so that cancels out. Unfortunately, the biowires user also has to go through the hassle of emulating the skillsofts, paying karma out if they want to do so permanently. And all that karma and the echo you're wasting on biowires could be used by the skillwire-using technomancer to boost his talents in more tangible and useful ways, not just as a means of trying to keep up with a single cheap implant.

The only reason I'd consider biowires is if 1) the GM is allowing you to start the game with submersion grades and 2) only to open up the Acceleration echo. Because that may arguably be a better deal than wired reflexes and possibly even synaptic boosters. And if you're able to get all four grades needed, you also have the benefit of skillwires 4, so it's a package deal. But that's the only perk I can see in favor of biowires, and then only at character creation. Post creation the incentive drops quite a bit as you've likely already wasted Essence on an initiative booster, so you have to weigh the costs of having those removed and filling the resulting Essence hole with something else just so you can have the option of wasting your echoes and karma to acquire something you already have...

[Udoshi]

You missed a whole bunch of things.
The skillsofts themselves are required and both users have equal capabilities of acquiring them, and they can all benefit from machine sprites and the like, too, so that cancels out.

I'm going to have to disagree with you. I'd like you to explain that, though. The only reason a sprite helps out emulated and memorized complex forms is because it turns into a complex form. Assist operation only works on complex forms, so I'd like to know how you plan on boosting regular activesofts with a sprite.

First, Karmagen does allow initiation/submersion out the door. Sure, it needs GM approval, but if you're using karmagen anyway, its pretty much 'yeah, okay, have a grade or two'. It also lets you save five points to carry over to gameplay, which takes the burden off submerging.

Second, you can. See unwired's note about Patching program options. If your copy protection is broken, you can upgrade your programs with program options freely. That goes for Hacking, General, and Simsense programs equally.

Third, That's exactly why you have a machine sprite do it for you. Software tests are Logic+software. Sprites have a Pilot equal to their rating, and the option of any autosoft at the same rating. So, effectively, it rolls twice its Rating for that test. Twelve dice. Sprite are sentient entities, not agents, so it doesn't have to bother with Dogbrain tests or even sleep, so it can crank out code 24/7 without the technomancer even getting his hands dirty in downtime.

Starting with skillwires above 3 does need GM approval - whether its saying yes on a quality, or handwaving it away, for what that's worth.

I'm not sure you realized it, but in my example above, an emulated activesoft 4, with personalized(1), and a sprite assisting(6) its effectively a level Ten skill. Which is something you just can't buy. Whether it's Dodge, Gunnery, or Automatics, regular skillwires simply can't match that.

Now Consider the lower scale. Submerging 1, for 9-13 karma, and doing the same trick with a rating 5-6 sprite, and a rating 1 activesoft. That's effectively a skill at 7, very very cheaply.

[Ol' Scratch]

First, Karmagen does allow initiation/submersion out the door.

Nope. You'll notice it's not located anywhere on the Karma Character Generation Table, nor is it mentioned in step 6: Purchase Magical and Resonance Resources. Allowing initiation or submersion grades is completely a house rule.

Starting with skillwires above 3 does need GM approval - whether its saying yes on a quality, or handwaving it away, for what that's worth.

Wait. Are you honestly trying to play it off that submersion is a normal aspect of character creation, but taking an official quality using base character creation rules is totally iffy and requires GM permission? XD

I'm not sure you realized it, but in my example above, an emulated activesoft 4, with personalized(1), and a sprite assisting(6) its effectively a level Ten skill. Which is something you just can't buy. Whether it's Dodge, Gunnery, or Automatics, regular skillwires simply can't match that.

An actual activesoft 4 + personalized + sprite assisted costs less than an emulated activesoft 4 + personalization + sprite assistance due to the extra time and/or Karma required to emulate it rather than just using it. Anything you can do with the emulated activesoft and biowires you can do with an actual activesoft and skillwires. That includes pirating or writing your own activesofts, and any options you apply to one can benefit both biowires and skillwires.

In the end, it comes down JUST between the costs of acquiring biowires vs. skillwires. And in every single case for a shadowrunning technomancer, skillwires win. By a huge landslide. The sheer amount of karma required to simulate the dirt-cheap cyberware is insane, then you have to continue paying Karma out the nose just to keep up with the skillwire user. There is no bargain, in any way shape or form, for biowires.

[Udoshi]

An actual activesoft 4 + personalized + sprite assisted costs less than an emulated activesoft 4 + personalization + sprite assistance due to the extra time and/or Karma required to emulate it rather than just using it. Anything you can do with the emulated activesoft and biowires you can do with an actual activesoft and skillwires. That includes pirating or writing your own activesofts, and any options you apply to one can benefit both biowires and skillwires.

Thought so. Stop right there. You -cannot- Assist Operation an Activesoft. The only good a machine sprite does Skillwires is by Stablility, but it can do that on your biological node too. The most dice you will ever be rolling for a chipped skill is 4(activesoft)+1(personalized), so five dice, before overdrive, which most people don't use. A TM surpasses that with a single submersion Biowire, a 1-karma emulated/memorized(This turns it into a Complex Form, which changes things slightly) activesoft, and a sprite helping out.

Page 43, RC. "Tweaking the Karma System'. Most people I've come across allow it, but your milage may vary. Yes, its a sidebar, but the devs acknowledged it as a possibility. It makes sense, though.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The only thing I'd point out is I don't consider the Submersion a cost of the biowires. Submersion is something you will be doing anyways(after character creation in any game I play) and there are plenty of reasons to get it to 4+ before you do much of anything else. So yeah it costs 48 karma but much of that karma was to get a wide range of benefits past biowires. Where as the costs of skillwires and any skils through biowires are only for the cost of skillwires/biowires.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Except....

Remeber that rating 6 machine sprite we've got hanging around for a little less than 256 days? We can have that guy sit in our biological node and Assist Operation on any one of those CF's at a time, raising its rating by six, meaning we effectively have a skill at ten. Suck on that, skillboosting adepts.

Oh. Wait. We can do that with a single-submersion biowire, raising an emulated activesoft 1 to 7 with a sprite, and we don't even have to pay for Aptitude.

Yeah, biowires are good. Different, but good.

Its things like this that make me hate biowires/technomancers, its so effing epically stupid. Why even put skill limits in the game if you have a gimmick to get around the limits, and not even for the archetypes it makes sense for.

[Mongoose]

Thought so. Stop right there. You -cannot- Assist Operation an Activesoft. The only good a machine sprite does Skillwires is by Stablility, but it can do that on your biological node too. The most dice you will ever be rolling for a chipped skill is 4(activesoft)+1(personalized), so five dice, before overdrive, which most people don't use. A TM surpasses that with a single submersion Biowire, a 1-karma emulated/memorized(This turns it into a Complex Form, which changes things slightly) activesoft, and a sprite helping out.

Page 43, RC. "Tweaking the Karma System'. Most people I've come across allow it, but your milage may vary. Yes, its a sidebar, but the devs acknowledged it as a possibility. It makes sense, though.

Could you give a page reference for the sprites "assist operation" that increases the program rating? If it actually does so, wouldn't that push up the level of the Biowires you'd need? Can't run a Skillsoft with higher rating than the Biowires, right?

[Udoshi]

Could you give a page reference for the sprites "assist operation" that increases the program rating? If it actually does so, wouldn't that push up the level of the Biowires you'd need? Can't run a Skillsoft with higher rating than the Biowires, right?

Complex Form, not Program. Big difference. Its in the Technomancer section. Next to the sprites.

Man, in the time it takes me to flip open my book and type this, you could have used the index just fine. 4thA, page 241.

Also, counterpoint: Complex forms are capped by Resonance, and sprite assist operation, as I understand it, lets them break that limit too.

[Mongoose]

Udoshi- I wasn't doubting you, I'm just not that versed in TMs, and tend to have trouble finding certain things. I was looking at sprite powers, not tasks.

I can easily see how you'd get the rating 10 Skillsoft / complex form using that sprite task, but I don't see how the biowires in your example (which were rating 4, right?) can run a rating 10 Skillsoft, complex form or no.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Udoshi- I wasn't doubting you, I'm just not that versed in TMs, and tend to have trouble finding certain things. I was looking at sprite powers, not tasks.

I can easily see how you'd get the rating 10 Skillsoft / complex form using that sprite task, but I don't see how the biowires in your example (which were rating 4, right?) can run a rating 10 Skillsoft, complex form or no.

That is indeed the trick... They can't...

Keep the Faith

[Jaid]

Each program can be maximally equipped with a number of
options equal to half its rating (round down).

so yeah, on a rating 4 activesoft (which is as high as you can buy) you get a maximum of 2 options, no more. (with the exception of registration and code protection, but since these are pirated activesofts you're talking about, that's beside the point)

also, as has been pointed out, you buy hits in low stress situations or when you have a crapload of dice and it's really really really likely to succeed anyways. you don't buy hits just because you don't feel like facing the chance of failure. that is not one of the times you get to buy hits. if you have 4 dice, and are facing a threshold 1 test, it won't be very long before you fail. and then you've just utterly destroyed your biowires echo. this also assumes you don't mind taking a penalty to every other test you make, combined with needing to make a test to turn the program off.

also note that even if you allow the assist operation on an emulated/learned skillsoft, it will still count as its full rating (minus pluscode if applicable) in terms of using up space on biowires. so a rating 4 activesoft assisted to rating 10 and having only pluscode 3 will be rating 7... hope you didn't want to run anything else at the same time.