I know Kung Fu, technomancer + skillwires Options

[Delarn]

Alice is a wageslave working and living inside a corp. She is so alienated from her own life that even the skills she needs to do her job are not hers, they were implanted via skillwires. But one day she begins to see things. She has emerged, she don't know it but she is now a technomancer. She com see all the information about her job, messages beeing exchanged by her coleagues, all the data floating around her. And she doesn't like what she sees. That's when she leaves the corp life and runs into the shadows.

That is the concept of a character I'm thinking about. Wich leads me to the question: can a technomancer who has skillwires installed learn a complex form that works like skillsoft? I'm asking that because Alice has no skills to make her survive in the shadows (combat skills, stealth skills...) and she will buy them as skillsofts. But as a technomancer I think she could learn a complex form based on the skillsoft she bought and thread it to highr levels. So, in a crucial moment when she is cornered and has to fight for her life she starts to download all the data she can grab from the matrix about self defense, including wuxia movies, and adds that data to her unarmed combat complex form. The complex form tells the skillwires how her muscles should react and, looking her oponnent with a surprized face, she says "I know Kung Fu" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

So, anyone knows if this is possible by the rules?

-Did you flash on something ?
- The intersec seams broken ...
- Chuck you need to flash ! Flash Chuck Flash !

This done : TM needs Biowire to use Emulated Skillsoft. You have skill wire so you need skillsoft chips.

[Ol' Scratch]

Do they actually need biowires for emulated skillsofts, or are emulated skillsofts required for biowires? What's stopping you from using a complex form with hardware like Skillwires, Commlinks, or anything else? I admit, I'm not well versed with technomancers (I kinda hate their execution and basic design concepts), but after a quick read that states "complex forms act like programs," I didn't think there were restrictions on using complex forms in that regard. Sure, they're not actually programs, but what's the difference when it comes to using them for their stated purpose?

And of course machine sprites can also use Diagnostics on the skillwires for even more bonus dice. I don't think they can do that for biowires since they're not actually a 'device'.

[Mongoose]

Do they actually need biowires for emulated skillsofts, or are emulated skillsofts required for biowires? What's stopping you from using a complex form with hardware like Skillwires, Commlinks, or anything else? I admit, I'm not well versed with technomancers (I kinda hate their execution and basic design concepts), but after a quick read that states "complex forms act like programs," I didn't think there were restrictions on using complex forms in that regard. Sure, they're not actually programs, but what's the difference when it comes to using them for their stated purpose?

And of course machine sprites can also use Diagnostics on the skillwires for even more bonus dice. I don't think they can do that for biowires since they're not actually a 'device'.

I think you could run a complex form version of a skillsoft on normal wires; other sorts of resonance code can run on other sorts of devices, right?

I don't think Diagnostics would do anything in this case. Diagnosics allows the sprite to "assist someone using or repairing the device". No test is required to use skillwires. Now, if you wanted to load the Machine Sprite into whatever device you were using (say, a gun with a smartlink), you could get bonus dice that way, maybe. But that's something any TM could do.

[Ol' Scratch]

Technically you're using the skillwires, but I get what you're saying. And yeah, I really don't see any reason why the emulated skillsofts wouldn't work with skillwires (thus eliminating yet another "win" for the biowire side of the argument).

[Mongoose]

Technically you're using the skillwires to run a piece of software.... and then using the software to perform a task. So yeah, you'd get bonus dice to run the software... a task that doesn't require a test.
A machine sprite's Diagnostics power could probably give bonus dice to resist damage from the Overdrive option, though. That could be handy!

[Ol' Scratch]

That's kind of silly. You rarely make a test to use a device proper so much as the secondary functions that device performs. For instance, when hacking you're using a commlink to manipulate the Matrix with programs and your own force of will. The commlink is just the vessel that allows you to do so.. You're not actually using the gun to kill someone, but using the gun to activate the bullet that kills someone. The gun is just the means to the end. You're not actually moving a car by driving it, but using the manual controls to tell it where to go while it does all the work. etc. Skillwires are the same. You're using the skillwires to activate a skillsoft which, in turn, instructs your body how to perform a skill. The Diagnosis would simply be taking those instructions and improving upon them, assisting the skillwires in its function.

"Using the skillwires to run a piece of software." I mean, really, how is that any different from a commlink? You can literally swap the two words and get the exact same sentence.

[Stahlseele]

Hmm, this thread made me think about this:
If a character were to slot a high level martial arts combat skill . . what about maneuvres?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Hmm, this thread made me think about this:
If a character were to slot a high level martial arts combat skill . . what about maneuvres?

From what I remember, Manuevers cannot be coded on a Chip...

Take that for what it is worth...

Keep the Faith

[Tymire]

Where does Unwired say can code skill softs? Break yes. Code no.. Which from that point degrades... From what I have seen you need the "mother program" to do that (which they don't give prices and aviablity for).

[Jaid]

From what I remember, Manuevers cannot be coded on a Chip...

Take that for what it is worth...

Keep the Faith

you explicitly can't even have martial arts on a skillsoft. it isn't a skill, it's a quality. (as are maneuvers)

[Delarn]

you explicitly can't even have martial arts on a skillsoft. it isn't a skill, it's a quality. (as are maneuvers)

Unarmed combat (Martial art) is a skill.

[Emy]

Unarmed combat (Martial art) is a skill.

Unarmed Combat is a skill. Martial Arts is a valid specialization of Unarmed Combat. Martial Arts is also a quality.

You can take skillsofts of a skill. You cannot take skillsofts of a specialization. You cannot take skillsofts of a quality, or of maneuvers.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Unarmed Combat is a skill. Martial Arts is a valid specialization of Unarmed Combat. Martial Arts is also a quality.

You can take skillsofts of a skill. You cannot take skillsofts of a specialization. You cannot take skillsofts of a quality, or of maneuvers.

Ahhh... But you can take a Skillsoft of Unarmed COmbat, of which all the rest is really just fluff (Specializations and such)...
I can have an Unarmed Combat Skill of 4 (with Specialization of Gracie Jui Jitsu) and still noy have the mechanical benefits of the Martial Art Quality... saying that I do not have the Quality does not mean that I am not skilled in Gracie Jui Jitsu... what it implies is that I have no obvious mechanical advantage of the Quality provided under the heading of Gracie Jui Jitsu...

If Character A has the Skill and Character B has teh Quality, they both still have the ability to use Gracie Jui Jitsu, it is just that Character A will receive no quality benefits or maneuvers associated with the skill that he has...

It is at that point just a matter of Fluff vs Mechanical Advantage...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

No, it's not fluff. Specializations have a tangible, in-game benefit. Specializations -- and the benefits thereof -- are also not included in skillsofts. Likewise, qualities are not skills by any measure of the in-game use of the word. These qualities also include very tangible benefits of their own, which are not granted by the skill (and thus by skillsofts) in any way, shape, or form. And vice-versa. While a character with the skill and another character with the quality can both be said to be practitioners of a given martial art, that in absolutely no way has any bearing whatsoever on anything being said in this discussion. And the character with the skill will undoubtedly kick the quality character's ass since the quality character -- lacking an actual skill -- is going to be at a -3 dice pool penalty, minimum, before accounting for any of the minor benefits the quality provides.

That said, I'm guessing someone doesn't quite understand the difference between "fluff" and "rules." Hint: "Fluff" is the name of the martial art and its techniques. "Rules" refer to the actual in-game benefits thereof.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, it's not fluff. Specializations have a tangible, in-game benefit. Specialization, also, are not included in skillsofts. Likewise, qualities are not skills by any measure of the in-game use of the word. These qualities also include very tangible benefits of their own, which are not granted by the skill (and thus by skillsofts) in any way, shape, or form. And vice-versa. While a character with the skill and another character with the quality can both be said to be practitioners of a given martial art, that in absolutely no way has any bearing whatsoever on anything being said in this discussion. And the character with the skill will undoubtedly kick the quality character's ass since the quality character -- lacking an actual skill -- is going to be at a -3 dice pool penalty, minimum, before accounting for any of the minor benefits the quality provides.

That said, I'm guessing someone doesn't quite understand the difference between "fluff" and "rules." Hint: "Fluff" is the name of the martial art and its techniques. "Rules" refer to the actual in-game benefits thereof.

You are just on a roll today aren't you Dr?

I have already stated that Skill is not Quality... and it has already been shown that you cannot obtain Qualities or Specializations as CHipped Skills... No Arguments there...

NOW... For Character A... One may choose to purchase the martial art quality, good for them, however, they must tie it to a skill for it to be useful... in this case, the skill is Unarmed Combat (or possibly Bladed Weapons, etc, dependant upon the particular martial arts quality taken)... Understood... Cut and Dried...

For Character B... he eschews the need to purchase a Quality at all and purchases the Unarmed Combat Skill... he then decides for fluff reasons that his unarmed combat reflects the training that he received for Gracie Jui Jitsu, and so takes the Specialization as such... He does not take any Martial Arts Quality, as he does not truly need to do so for his concept... and he is happy...

Now, in comparison with each other, Character A may fall back on some specialized maneuvers obtained through acquisition, as well as several possible special effects of the Martial Art that he has chosen... Character B does not really care for all that mumbo jumbo BS Dogma that Character A follows... The fact is, they both Practive Gracie Jui Jitsu... the only difference is that Character A will have some mechanical advantages that Character B does not...

However, they are both Masters of the martial art they profess to be a part of, assuming they both have at least a rating X in the Unarmed Combat Skill (Where Rating chosen reflects that particular tab;e's definition of Master, so doen't freak out there)... Mechanically, Character A is more diverse than Character B, and is probably more of a threat, but you cannot say that they do not both have training in the Martial Art of choice (One gains this through a Quality, the other through a Specialization), they just choose to reflect it in different ways...

I am pretty sure that most people grasped this when I mentioned it above... I hope that this clears things up for you Dr. Funkenstein

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

Ahhh... But you can take a Skillsoft of Unarmed COmbat, of which all the rest is really just fluff (Specializations and such)...

Wrong. Fini.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Wrong. Fini.

Back it up... You CAN take a Skillsoft for Unarmed COmbat... anything else IS just fluff, as the skillsoft will not allow specializations or Quality USE... Prove Me Wrong there Boyo... Bet that you can't...

Hitn: Any appeal to Specializations or Quality Useage will be Wrong... Just want to point that out a head of time...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

I didn't say you can't take Unarmed Combat as a skillsoft. I am saying that specializations, the quality, and the techniques are NOT fluff. They are very much tangible things with distinct rules. Your skillsoft does not include them, and the skillsoft includes all basic forms of martial arts at exactly the same rating.

You can refluff an Unarmed Combat skillsoft to be a "Kung Fu" skillsoft, but you cannot say that it includes the specializations or techniques as "fluff" because the words "specialization" and "technique" have very specific in-game meanings. Neither of which are fluff. "Kung Fu," however, is definitely fluff.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I didn't say you can't take Unarmed Combat as a skillsoft. I am saying that specializations, the quality, and the techniques are NOT fluff. They are very much tangible things with distinct rules. Your skillsoft does not include them, and the skillsoft includes all basic forms of martial arts at exactly the same rating.

You can refluff an Unarmed Combat skillsoft to be a "Kung Fu" skillsoft, but you cannot say that it includes the specializations or techniques as "fluff" because the words "specialization" and "technique" have very specific in-game meanings. Neither of which are fluff. "Kung Fu," however, is definitely fluff.

And if you look real closely, I never said that you could use specializations or Qualities in a Skillsoft... Nope, not once... and yes, both the specialties and the Qualities have tangible mechanical effects, which I also stated above... my point was that you can have two different characters with otherwise identical builds, one with just the skill and the other with the Quality, and they could both be Martial Arts Masters... that is the Fluff part of the argument... For some reason you took offense to that set of statements... I am not quite sure exactly why, but there you go...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

No, I took "offense" (your word, not mine) at your misuse of words like "specialization" and "fluff" in a discussion about the specifics thereof in relation to skillsofts.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, I took "offense" (your word, not mine) at your misuse of words like "specialization" and "fluff" in a discussion about the specifics thereof in relation to skillsofts.

But in effect, the Speciaization "Kung FU" for the Unarmed Combat Skill IS Fluff... in this case it does happen to have a mechanical effect, but it is still fluff, a fact that even you admitted at the end of your previous post...

And I quote:

"Kung Fu," however, is definitely fluff.

So, not sure exactly where you are going here, but it is all good... it appears that we are on the same page at least...

Keep the Faith