Maximum possible Initiative? - Dumpshock Forums

Maximum possible Initiative?, How fast can a player be?

Moonstone Spider View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 02:26 AM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834	Let's see, Night one with Exceptional Attribute: Quickness and Exceptional Attribute: Intelligence gives me a reaction of 14. Actually I wonder if the NSRCG is wrong there, it seems high to me. Anyway Add Reaction booster 6 and Move by Wire 4 (Deltaware, of course). Initiative is now 24 + 4d6. Add in Small Unit Tactics 8 (Skills rarely, if ever get higher), on average get 4 additional points. Add in a battletac computer at rating 8 to get an additional 4 points average. Initiative is now 22 + 4d6. Add in a quickened Improve Cybered Reaction spell with 10 successes. Initiative is now 32 + 4d6 Have I missed anything?

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 02:28 AM Post #2
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	drugs.

Fortune View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 02:41 AM Post #3
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Suprathyroid Gland and Enhanced Articulation for +2 more to Reaction.

Centurion View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 02:44 AM Post #4
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 2-September 03 From: San Antonio Member No.: 5,571	I always wondered...how much stuff can a character cram into themselves before the GM just decides their nervous system/heart just up and explodes?

Large Mike View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 03:10 AM Post #5
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,311 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 2,062	About six points of essence worth. Although, roleplaying that 'he's so jacked up he can catch a raindrop in a hurricane' feeling is great. I mean, you know how pissed off you get when old people fill up a staircase in front of you going real slow? Imagine what that would be like to someone that lives their lives at six times the speed? And traffic jams? This is probably why the 2060s are so dangerous.

Moonwolf View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 03:27 AM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 26-February 02 From: The Golden Orchards Member No.: 2,011	Problems with this. a) MBW is not compatible with ANY reaction or initiative boosting cyberware. This includes reaction enhancers. b)Suprathyroid is not compatible with MBW. Says so in M&M, in the cyberware and bioware compatibilty section. c) 10 sucesses? HAHAHA. How in hell do you ever get 10 sucesses at TN 21(The actual max result you can get with tech)?

toturi View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 03:44 AM Post #7
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	Add the Reaction Enhancers level 1 first. Then cast the Enhanced Cyber Reaction spell as a tatoo and quicken. Tada! Then add the rest of the gang.

RedmondLarry View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 03:44 AM Post #8
Senior GM Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,406 Joined: 12-April 03 From: Redmond, WA Member No.: 4,442	And 10 successes only gives +5 to Reaction. It doesn't appear you actually added in the Small Unit Tactics.

Diesel View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 04:13 AM Post #9
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 608 Joined: 9-July 02 From: California Member No.: 2,955	Haha, you can have as high an init you want if you're the GM, bee-itches!

Cain

Feb 15 2004, 04:34 AM

Post #10

Grand Master of Run-Fu

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QUOTE

Initiative is now 32 + 4d6

Is that all?

Let me see, somewhere around here I have my prototype speed sammie. He's technically a legal starting character, too; let me upgrade him a bit to get more speed.

Night One with Exceptional Attribute: Quickness and Bonus Attribute point, as well as Intelligence 6. Base reaction of 7 + 1d6, before any augmentation.

We add Genetech to increase the maximum for Quickness, then add Muscle Toner 4, Suprathyroid, and Enhanced Articulation. We now have a Quickness of 14, Int of 8, for a base reaction of 11, plus 1 for EA and 1 for the suprathyroid. For laughs, we'll add an adrenal gland; the quickness boost doesn't count, but the +4 reaction does.

We have a base reaction of 17 without adding a single piece of cyber. Let's fix that. We'll give him used alpha Wired 3, and used alpha Reaction Enhancer 6, for a reaction bonus of 12. We're at 29 + 4d6.

Minus the cerebral booster, we're actually discussing a legal starting character. Let's start adding karma. Our sammie can go up to an Intelligence of 9 and a Quickness of 15. After spending enough karma to get that, we have a reaction of 30. Now, we'll add in the Small Unit Tactics skill, with 8 assumed successes for an additional +4 initiative; and we add the Increased Cybered reaction spell with 10 successes for an additional +5. We have an initiative of 39 + 4d6.

To really reach insane speeds, we should add kamikaze, cram, and Jazz. However, for the sake of sanity, I'm leaving them out. 39 + 4d6 is plenty fast.

I can top even that, but not with anything resembling a legal starting character. A human adept at Initiate Grade 60 could have a Quickness of 60, plus Improved Reflexes 3, and an Intelligence of 9, resulting in an initiative of 41 + 4d6. It's one hell of an expensive one-trick pony, but it's possible.

Siege View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 04:52 AM Post #11
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916	If you mainline Kamikaze, Cram and Jazz at the same time, I'd insist someone roll for spontaneous heart implosion. :grinbig: -Siege

Centurion

Feb 15 2004, 07:46 AM

Post #12

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Large Mike)

About six points of essence worth.

Although, roleplaying that 'he's so jacked up he can catch a raindrop in a hurricane' feeling is great. I mean, you know how pissed off you get when old people fill up a staircase in front of you going real slow? Imagine what that would be like to someone that lives their lives at six times the speed? And traffic jams? This is probably why the 2060s are so dangerous.

That's when they die on the operating table. I'm referring to the degrading effects on one's health over time tied more to the other attributes than essence. I mean to say you're on the street/mall/whereever with your .0000001 essense character with all the cyber functioning normally, and the body just can't handle the exertion any longer and PLOOIE. Basically, I'm arguing that with all the stress brought on your nervous system when you pass point +X intiative (regardless if you have higher than 0 essense), you've just got yourself a Borrowed time flaw.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 10:48 AM Post #13
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	that's when the cyberware stress rules come into play, see.

cykotek View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 11:51 AM Post #14
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Worcester, MA Member No.: 5,621	Night One, bonus attribute and exceptional attribute quickness, exceptional int. Quick of 10, int of 7. Suprathyroid, muscle toner 4, adrenal pump, Cerebral booster 2. Now we're up to quick of 15, int of 9. That's a 12 reaction. Add in the adrenal pump bonus and enhanced articulation, as well as suprathyroid, and you've got 18. Reaction enhancers 6, boosted reflexes 3, synaptic accelerator 2, and you're now hanging out at 26+5d6. Use small unit tactics for another 4, and increased reaction spell for another 5. We're at 35 + 5d6. Then, you can boost his quickness to 15, his int to 10. Final calculation yields quickness of 20 (22 with pump), int of 12, reaction of 39 + 5d6, combat pool of 17 (with will of 1), combat pool of 20 (with a will of 6) Total base essence cost: 4.6 Total base bio-index: 6.1 + 1.8 of neural-ware Total base nuyen: 450,000 :nuyen: of cyberware 290,000 :nuyen: of bioware 310,000 :nuyen: of neural bioware Total Karma: 195 Karma for Quickness 81 Karma for Intelligence Optimize route: [edited, since I forgot about using delta cyberware] Only through use of delta grade cyberware can this setup achieve a point in which the bio-index of the bioware does not exceed the "3+Essence" index. Any other grade of cyberware will require "reduce essence" and "reduce bio-index" surgery options. For even more ridiculousness, Jazz would raise it to Q: 22 (24), I: 12, R: 40+6d6, CP: 18 - 21 Kamikaze would get you to Q: 21 (23), I: 12, R: 39+6d6, CP: 18 - 21. Cram would get Q: 20 (22), I: 12, R: 40+6d6, CP: 17 - 20. Kamikaze and Psyche would get Q: 21 (23), I: 13, R: 40+6d6, CP: 19 - 21 Jazz and Psyche would get Q: 22 (24), I: 13, R: 40+6d6, CP: 19 - 22 Cram and Psyche would get you Q: 20 (22), I: 13, R: 40+6d6, CP: 18 - 21 I'm not going to go into multiple drugs that enhance the same attribute. [add] Average initiative: 39 + (5 * 3.5) = 56.5 Max initiative: 39 + 30 = 69 Average # of actions: 6 Max actions: 7 Average intiative with jazz/psyche: 40 + (6 * 3.5) = 61 Max initiative: 76 Average actions: 7 Max Actions: 8 A move-by-wire setup would achive something ~35+5d6 before drugs. After drugs ~36+6d6, yielding an average intiative of 57, max of 72. Average number of actions on drugs will hit 8, with a max of 10 (due to extra actions after initial phases). Also, if you want to be truly ludicrous, have a free spirit hide it's life in this person. Depending on how you interpret the wording, that means either another +(Force+Spirit Energy) to Reaction (from quickness/int bonuses), or +2x(Force+Spirit Energy) (from bonuses to quickness, int, and reaction). That, however, is going beyond the limit of "might be possible, someday, somewhere, by one guy" and into the realms of "WTF". [/add] This post has been edited by cykotek: Feb 15 2004, 12:09 PM

Gorath View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 12:12 PM Post #15
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 128 Joined: 19-March 03 Member No.: 4,292	To get really fast Adept is the way. Don't forget to buy "Quick Strike" to be the first to act in one initiative pass. Together with Imp. Reflexes 3 and other Adept powers + Cyber and Bio, you will get really fast. But you need more Karma then a starting characetr ;-) For a starting character you could go with Imp. Reflexes 2 and Quickstrike... QUI 7, Imp, Attribute QUI, INT 6, Small Unit Tactics 6...

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 01:00 PM Post #16
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	no cyber or bio enhancements to Rea works with Imp Ref. indirect enhancements, like those to Qui and Int, work.

cykotek View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 03:33 PM Post #17
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 15-September 03 From: Worcester, MA Member No.: 5,621	mfb: Depends on the 'ware. Certain implants (like MBW and muscle toner) say that the bonuses to quickness also increase Reaction. Others (like Adrenal Pump and Muscle Replacement) say that they don't stack. <EM>In general</EM>, bioware will indirectly increase reaction, while cyberware won't. Past that, the only incompatabilites are right in M&M.

ShadowPhoenix View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 06:08 PM Post #18
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 255 Joined: 10-May 03 From: CB/Omaha Sprawl Member No.: 4,568	don't forget the Adrenaline Surge Edge either, nothing like rerolling all those 6's for initiative :D talk about wowzer's hella fast

Sahandrian View Member Profile	Feb 15 2004, 11:10 PM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 17-June 02 From: Concord University, Athens, WV Member No.: 2,880	That edge only applies if the character has no other reaction or initiative enhancements. That includes natural benefits like the extra dice some vampiric or shapeshifter creatures get.

Fortune

Feb 16 2004, 12:27 AM

Post #20

Immoral Elf

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QUOTE (cykotek)

mfb: Depends on the 'ware. Certain implants (like MBW and muscle toner) say that the bonuses to quickness also increase Reaction. Others (like Adrenal Pump and Muscle Replacement) say that they don't stack. <EM>In general</EM>, bioware will indirectly increase reaction, while cyberware won't. Past that, the only incompatabilites are right in M&M.

mfb is refering to the Adept Power Increase Reflexes, which is incompatable with any and all cyber/bio Reaction/Initiative enhancers.

Digital Heroin View Member Profile	Feb 16 2004, 12:27 AM Post #21
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,458 Joined: 22-March 03 From: I am a figment of my own imagination. Member No.: 4,302	I miss the days of being able to eek 6D6 + 34 initiative out of the system...

Zazen View Member Profile	Feb 16 2004, 05:36 AM Post #22
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,685 Joined: 17-August 02 Member No.: 3,123	There is no maximum possible initiative because someone could always learn a force 100 Increase Reaction spell, rolling successes on all 200 sorcery dice. With infinite karma and infinite time, you're looking at infinite initiative. Also, for the guys building speed machines: don't forget to have a force 12 Voodoo spirit inhabit these super initiative machines for +12 to all physical attributes. It's only 10 karma to be a serviteur, y'know.

Wish View Member Profile	Feb 16 2004, 06:41 AM Post #23
Target Group: Members Posts: 38 Joined: 23-February 03 Member No.: 4,142	Well, if we're talking about theoretical maximums, there really isn't one. There's no theoretical limit on the force of a spell, and an increase reaction spell can jack reaction up through the roof. There is one trick that people are missing though (while maintaining "reasonable" numbers of dice and TNs) - make the character a mage, and Channel a spirit. Around Force 10 is reasonable (we're looking at pretty advanced characters here, by the time they lay in all that delta-ware). That adds another 10 quickness and therefore another 5 reaction.

RedmondLarry

Feb 16 2004, 07:30 AM

Post #24

Senior GM

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QUOTE (Zazen)

someone could always learn a force 100 Increase Reaction spell

Some people think it takes years to learn a high-force spell.

Jason Farlander

Feb 16 2004, 05:44 PM

Post #25

Running Target

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QUOTE (OurTeam)

QUOTE (Zazen)

someone could always learn a force 100 Increase Reaction spell

Some people think it takes years to learn a high-force spell.

And, indeed, it *can* take years to learn a high-force spell, as each failed attempt to learn it takes a number of days equal to the force of the spell. Even with a Sorcery of 100 and enough spell pool/karma pool/elemental dice to double it, your probability of getting a TN100 on 200 dice is still so very small as to be functionally impossible. Each attempt to learn that spell takes 100 days. How does that spell, then, *not* take years to learn? Millenia, even? (the single die probability for TN 100 is about 3.54x10^-13)

Now, this *is* just a discussion about theoretical maximums.. but I contend that it would, on average, take longer than the duration of the current cycle of magic to successfully learn a force 100 spell, making it actually impossible to do (rolling 200 dice every 100 days for 5000 years still only raises the likihood of any single roll matching TN 100 to a little over 1/1,000,000).

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