How to (nicely) teach the players that they should plan and stick to the plan?, educating players for the greater good Options

[mielikki]

Our gaming group consists of the GM and 5 players. The game is, as agreed with GM and players beforehand, a black-hat stealthy ops type. Character creation was coordinated, so the PCs should fill all the team main roles. The split of PCs as follows:

Gunboy: an ex-Lonestar officer, killing machine, slightly psychotic, but otherwise can think, if he choses to. RL first time SR player, but tries to read the rules.
Bladeboy: a phys-ad with katana. Stealthy, but first acts, than thinks. Does not talk too much. RL has played SR before, and has a good idea what his character can do.
Hacker: could be the matrix specialist, if he (RL) ever read the rules and stopped complicated ing things by geeky stuff.
Shaman: a female troll, with a bit of magic, a big club and anti-talents for anything dealing with technology. Good meatshield, with great ideas and good common sense. RL first time SR player, doesn´t know the rules well, but can find her way around.
Mage-girl (my PC): a female elf, the primary magician, face and (not so willing) teamleader. RL has played SR before and knows the rules.

We've been playing weekly, for the last four months. This should have been enough time for the game styles to blend, and for the players to get an idea of in-game consequences. Well, it is just not happening. For some reason, even if we can come up with a plan (usually between the mage-girl, the shaman and the gunboy), somebody (usually the hacker) forgets what he is supposed to do and why, someone else breaks the concealment, and yet somebody else (or more than one somebody) does something blatantly stupid.
If neither mage-girl nor shaman are around, the boys will just charge ahead with no plan at all, shoot/slash whatever comes their way, and forget about the very basic tactics (like don't leave the weakest team member behind in dangerous locations).

The GM is not happy. So far he has been patient enough to let the PCs survive (though it does cost them), but I do suspect this will not last forever.

I am not too happy either - last night my PC almost got killed because of the rest of the team not being able to carry out a plan that we went over twice (mage-girl was to seduce the target and lead him into ambush, rest of the team was to wait till she slaps a tranq-patch on him and then attack with full non-lethal force - hacker forgot to give warning and bladeboy, with a katana and an UZI under his coat, decided to openly walk around the dark alley to get better position in front of the target... and when the target became suspicious and almost slit mage-girl's throat, bladeboy proceeded to kill the target right away, leaving us with just a corpse to get information from...).

I've tried not interfering and letting them plan their part of action by themselves, without instruction. Result: no plan, luckily nobody died, but not their achievement.
I've tried working out a plan with them, going over it, assigning roles. Result: see above.

The shaman is fine. She is a very experienced player, and really good common sense, so she tends not to forget obvious, understand when to retreat and how to remain unseen, and follows plans to a T, unless of course everything goes haywire. But how are we supposed to IN-GAME convince the other players that a plan is actually something we should have and should follow?

I am not looking for answers like "ditch the players". Yes, that is an option, but I do believe that the players can learn. Of course, they could learn the hard way (i.e. by death of their characters), but that would likely mean the death of my PC too, which I'd rather avoid...
So, any ideas?

[Banaticus]

Stop rewarding failures. No nuyen, no karma. The GM can give out whatever he wants to whoever he wants and if he doesn't like something or thinks that a person isn't doing what the character is doing, then he doesn't have to reward that stuff. Carrot and stick -- people will learn. Or he can give the Common Sense positive quality, then the next earned karma must be used to payback that "gift".

[BlueMax]

The task can be impossible.
Some groups just want to let go that night, whip out the Predator and have a blast.

I find as a players life gains responsibility (career influence, partner, kids, other hobbies) the more beer and pretzels they want game night.

BlueMax

[Wandering One]

Switch tactics. You've got a pair of headstrong gunbunnies and a matrix guy who wants some spotlight. Plan him some spotlight time and he might not act up as much, and hand him a $2 notepad to write shit down on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As to the gunbunnies, if they're THAT bonkers... well... plan for it. Send 'em in as a distraction while you do the dirty work in the shadows.

Most likely scenario their chars die and you still pull off the run. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) A little... training exercise.

[mielikki]

I find as a players life gains responsibility (career influence, partner, kids, other hobbies) the more beer and pretzels they want game night.

BlueMax

Funny it is quite the opposite here - the GM (my husband) and I are the oldest of the group, career, mortgage, the whole package - and we´ve both done the "kick the door and start shooting" before and it is no longer the fun it used to be...

[LurkerOutThere]

I'm getting the feeling the OP is not the group GM so we should tailor our fixes accordingly.

[Dwight]

. The game is, as agreed with GM and players beforehand, a black-hat stealthy ops type. Character creation was coordinated, so the PCs should fill all the team main roles. The split of PCs as follows:

[snip a list of PCs that doesn't compute]

That PC list, as you describe them, was the result of a consciously co-ordinated effort? I think that "black-hat stealthy" was the first plan to bite the dust quickly, before anyone rolled a single die.

So are the rest of the people at the table, besides you and the GM and you, having fun?

[BlueMax]

Funny it is quite the opposite here - the GM (my husband) and I are the oldest of the group, career, mortgage, the whole package - and we´ve both done the "kick the door and start shooting" before and it is no longer the fun it used to be...

Hey, I hear you. I too have owner, kids, work and so on and yet....

I send out mailers of whats going on on the Monday before a game(Saturday).
I arrange the meal, often cooking it, and sometimes even the seating.
I have premade maps from Sprawl Sites on mylar so that I can just drop a "small bar" or "bank" onto the battlemat.
From my perspective, the clearer everything is the more I can enjoy myself.

But I realize not everyone is like me.

BlueMax

[mielikki]

I'm getting the feeling the OP is not the group GM so we should tailor our fixes accordingly.

I was just about to point that out - my question comes from the player´s perspective, trying to find an in-game solution for an in-game situation.

[Dwight]

Funny it is quite the opposite here - the GM (my husband) and I are the oldest of the group, career, mortgage, the whole package - and we´ve both done the "kick the door and start shooting" before and it is no longer the fun it used to be...

I went to "plan the shit out of the mission"-ville and left again. Because: 1) the planning ended up such an empty drain on playing time (and I'd feel the same way even if I didn't have 4 kids), and 2) the fun action didn't actually start till something went wrong with the carefully orchestrated plan.

I'm not talking about it having to be kick in the door frontal assault all the time. But if it takes more than 5 minutes to "plan" (I'm not counting the legwork where you are rolling a few dice and things are actually happening in the game world) then something is seriously fubar. I'm not rolling dice, haven't for the last 30 minutes? *snore*

[mielikki]

That PC list, as you describe them, was the result of a consciously co-ordinated effort? I think that "black-hat stealthy" was the first plan to bite the dust quickly, before anyone rolled a single die.

So are the rest of the people at the table, besides you and the GM and you, having fun?

I think they are having fun. Sometimes more than the GM, I suspect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I believe that since it is the GM who has to do the most work for a campaign, it is up to the GM to set the tone of the play - I mean, it is no fun to run a game you don´t enjoy, it´s not like you are being paid for it...
and, after all, we all knew before we started what the game would be like.

[mielikki]

I went to "plan the shit out of the mission"-ville and left again. Because: 1) the planning ended up such an empty drain on playing time (and I'd feel the same way even if I didn't have 4 kids), and 2) the fun action didn't actually start till something went wrong with the carefully orchestrated plan.

I'm not talking about it having to be kick in the door frontal assault all the time. But if it takes more than 5 minutes to "plan" (I'm not counting the legwork where you are rolling a few dice and things are actually happening in the game world) then something is seriously fubar. I'm not rolling dice, haven't for the last 30 minutes? *snore*

Different game styles then (and nothing wrong with that...). Rolling dice is nice, but some of the most memorable events from RPGs over the years include the nights when no die was rolled...

[Catadmin]

Speaking from experience, some players just like rocking the boat and screwing the rest of the group. The only way to find out if your group is this type of player is to sit down with Shaman and GM for an OOC discussion. Set up a scenario and a plan (as earlier suggested) that requires the boys to take the lead and Shaman & Mage-Girl have to sit back and play backup. If any of the boys try to "hide behind your skirts", you know that that person is behaving this way on purpose.

The other option is to, in game play, have Shaman and Mage-Girl withhold anything but the most basic support on the next mission. Mage-Girl explains "Hey, Omae, I nearly got fried. It is NOT okay for you to skunk me like that. So, you don't want a plan? Fine. I'll just stand in the sidelines and when you need someone to heal you up or bring down that magical barrier, you'll have to pay me extra, just as if you were hiring extra muscle for the job."

What I'm suggesting is not that the team gives you and Shaman an extra cut of what Mr. Johnson is paying. I'm saying that if the other "characters" choose to treat you and Shaman as expendable, then you get paid by BOTH Mr. Johnson and the boys. This is the shadows, after all. And any other pro runner would have treated these guys as expendable assets after milking them for all they were worth.

But as your character was actually nearly killed in game play, your character absolutely has the right to "blow up" at them over this. And make the point that the team needs to re-visit its focus and decide if the missions it's going to take are truly the stealthy kind or if your teammates want to take more hack-n-slash jobs. If so, somebody had better notify the Fixer before the Johnson gets torqued that subtle-touch team has started making a name for itself in the news outlets.

[Dwight]

I think they are having fun. Sometimes more than the GM, I suspect (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

There appears to have been a serious miscommunication between the GM and those other players about what expectations of the PCs, and the reaction of the game world. Or you are misreading the GM and projecting your own level of unhappiness on him.

I believe that since it is the GM who has to do the most work for a campaign, it is up to the GM to set the tone of the play - I mean, it is no fun to run a game you don´t enjoy, it´s not like you are being paid for it...
and, after all, we all knew before we started what the game would be like.

Let's leave aside for the moment what the truly amount of work the GM "has to do".

Apparently the GM is failing at his job to communicate the tone? Is the GM fudging dice rolls or something, or not communicating the tone or WTF is going on there? How is the tone not getting set, in the other player's eyes? Or are the players are happy with it and happy with bumbling along, perfectly happy with their characters failing at a lot of stuff?

How about a realignment of expectations on your part, and if need be the GM's part, and go with that? Is that in anyway feasible? You know, be willing to live as a PC with aspirations of soaring with eagles but stuck in a flock of turkeys?

[Dwight]

Different game styles then (and nothing wrong with that...). Rolling dice is nice, but some of the most memorable events from RPGs over the years include the nights when no die was rolled...

That was to an extent me...until I found a 'good' game system. But I never had a happily memorable moment 'planning'. Whether it's dice rolling or not, things happening. Planning = dick all happening in the game world.

EDIT: And an entirely successful, 'can't fail' plan = no tension.

[Catadmin]

Dwight has a point that I wasn't considering in my previous post. It might be an OOC communications issue here. Different people, different expectations. After all, some people might think stealthy is "don't be noticed till you pull the trigger".

Which may or may not involve kicking in doors.

[Dwight]

BTW mielikki, out of curiosity, is this messageboard the first place you've openly shared and expressed these feelings?

[mielikki]

There appears to have been a serious miscommunication between the GM and those other players about what expectations of the PCs, and the reaction of the game world. Or you are misreading the GM and projecting your own level of unhappiness on him.

I certainly can and will raise this point with the GM, however, before we get too deep into this - my question was not how to change the tone of the game, or how to communicate it, or how to solve any other issue out of game, with the help of the GM or without.

My question was, how to in-game make the guys stick to a plan they have previously agreed to. You know, the thing professionals do, if they are actually professionals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!

[Dwight]

I certainly can and will raise this point with the GM, however, before we get too deep into this - my question was not how to change the tone of the game, or how to communicate it, or how to solve any other issue out of game, with the help of the GM or without.

My question was, how to in-game make the guys stick to a plan they have previously agreed to. You know, the thing professionals do, if they are actually professionals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!

I'm talking about getting to the root of the issue rather than trying to treat the symptoms. What would you think of a doctor that handed someone with meningitis a couple Asprins and told them to go home and relax? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

EDIT: And why bring it up with just the GM? Why not just say at the table and the end of a session "Guy's, I'm confused and we need to talk. I thought this game was going to be black-hat stealthy, which to me means [X] but what I'm seeing is [Y], what is up with that? Can we try some things to change this? Here are some suggestions for how I can help people stick more with plans." Because unilaterally just doing those things to teach 'em, well that is the path of madness and despair.

[mielikki]

BTW mielikki, out of curiosity, is this messageboard the first place you've openly shared and expressed these feelings?

Depends on what you mean by "openly". And, what you mean by "feelings".
I did talk with some of the players and of course the GM.
And, in the past, I have seen games collapse because of long-time conflict of game style, and if this can be prevented by a small change now, everybody will win.

So more than "feelings" it is "concerns" - if this will go on for too long, it will not be that easy to solve.

[BlueMax]

I can't believe that this got past me

/me lowers his voice 3 octaves

"For the greater good."

That sillyness should have been added to my first post.

BlueMax

[Dwight]

And, in the past, I have seen games collapse because of long-time conflict of game style, and if this can be prevented by a small change now, everybody will win.

I'm going to be frank, your subject line (and other things) suggests to me a lack responsibility for the man in the mirror. EDIT: Oops you are, English Second Language. That is figure of speech for you taking time to think about what change in gamestyle you can make towards what they are enjoying.

[mielikki]

I can't believe that this got past me

/me lowers his voice 3 octaves

"For the greater good."

That sillyness should have been added to my first post.

BlueMax

Guess it didn´t turn out as the kind of irony it was intended - please bear in mind that English is my second language!

And, due to time differences and work commitments, I will not be able to respond in the next 15 or so hours, but I will be back!

[Warlordtheft]

My question was, how to in-game make the guys stick to a plan they have previously agreed to. You know, the thing professionals do, if they are actually professionals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!

<IC>If I was you, I'd give them one warning-if they continue to be drekheads, teach them the meanining of what the 6th world has to offer. And remember you can have friends (spirits) the don't.

If both you and the troll can bind 4 spirits do so, and if the party frags up/you, frag'em back or use the spirits to save yourself.

<OOC>Talk to the GM-remind him/her this is not you trying to be a slitch, it is your PC trying to keep herself alive with ametuear runners who are reckless.

[tagz]

Hmm... Tricky one. I like to see this being tackled from the PC side too and not just the GM side.

Well, you are the teamleader, the face, and a mage. So you have some options.

Next time they act up make an big deal out of it, in game. You may want to let them know that it's not personal, but you really need to role-play this out to keep the character consistent with whats happening.

I can see you just walking casually up to one of them as they grin over a dead guard they were supposed to sneak by, and you get up close and do a quick-draw test and pistol whip one of them in the face. You can hold back on the attack's damage but make sure it hits, shouldn't be that hard if they don't see it coming and get no defense test. Then tell the GM you are rolling an intimidate action. Have your character say in a quiet angry voice, "In MY team we make a plan and we stick to it! Do something like this again and it's coming out of YOUR SHARE!", or something like that. The successful intimidate can be useful to make them just kinda stand there and gawk for a few seconds in shock.

If you did something like that then their next action would say a lot about them. If they fall in line, then they probably just want a bigger cut of the action, and what you did gave them some of that. In that case, try to work in a little something just for them every now and them that lets them show off a tiny bit, or makes some drama. If they immediately try to pull something, like attack you (so have a bound spirit or two at the ready before you do this), then they probably just don't understand how the theme is at all and likely aren't trying to. If that's the case, maybe you should seek other players instead.

Just my thoughts.