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mielikki
Our gaming group consists of the GM and 5 players. The game is, as agreed with GM and players beforehand, a black-hat stealthy ops type. Character creation was coordinated, so the PCs should fill all the team main roles. The split of PCs as follows:

Gunboy: an ex-Lonestar officer, killing machine, slightly psychotic, but otherwise can think, if he choses to. RL first time SR player, but tries to read the rules.
Bladeboy: a phys-ad with katana. Stealthy, but first acts, than thinks. Does not talk too much. RL has played SR before, and has a good idea what his character can do.
Hacker: could be the matrix specialist, if he (RL) ever read the rules and stopped complicated ing things by geeky stuff.
Shaman: a female troll, with a bit of magic, a big club and anti-talents for anything dealing with technology. Good meatshield, with great ideas and good common sense. RL first time SR player, doesnīt know the rules well, but can find her way around.
Mage-girl (my PC): a female elf, the primary magician, face and (not so willing) teamleader. RL has played SR before and knows the rules.

We've been playing weekly, for the last four months. This should have been enough time for the game styles to blend, and for the players to get an idea of in-game consequences. Well, it is just not happening. For some reason, even if we can come up with a plan (usually between the mage-girl, the shaman and the gunboy), somebody (usually the hacker) forgets what he is supposed to do and why, someone else breaks the concealment, and yet somebody else (or more than one somebody) does something blatantly stupid.
If neither mage-girl nor shaman are around, the boys will just charge ahead with no plan at all, shoot/slash whatever comes their way, and forget about the very basic tactics (like don't leave the weakest team member behind in dangerous locations).

The GM is not happy. So far he has been patient enough to let the PCs survive (though it does cost them), but I do suspect this will not last forever.

I am not too happy either - last night my PC almost got killed because of the rest of the team not being able to carry out a plan that we went over twice (mage-girl was to seduce the target and lead him into ambush, rest of the team was to wait till she slaps a tranq-patch on him and then attack with full non-lethal force - hacker forgot to give warning and bladeboy, with a katana and an UZI under his coat, decided to openly walk around the dark alley to get better position in front of the target... and when the target became suspicious and almost slit mage-girl's throat, bladeboy proceeded to kill the target right away, leaving us with just a corpse to get information from...).

I've tried not interfering and letting them plan their part of action by themselves, without instruction. Result: no plan, luckily nobody died, but not their achievement.
I've tried working out a plan with them, going over it, assigning roles. Result: see above.

The shaman is fine. She is a very experienced player, and really good common sense, so she tends not to forget obvious, understand when to retreat and how to remain unseen, and follows plans to a T, unless of course everything goes haywire. But how are we supposed to IN-GAME convince the other players that a plan is actually something we should have and should follow?

I am not looking for answers like "ditch the players". Yes, that is an option, but I do believe that the players can learn. Of course, they could learn the hard way (i.e. by death of their characters), but that would likely mean the death of my PC too, which I'd rather avoid...
So, any ideas?
Banaticus
Stop rewarding failures. No nuyen, no karma. The GM can give out whatever he wants to whoever he wants and if he doesn't like something or thinks that a person isn't doing what the character is doing, then he doesn't have to reward that stuff. Carrot and stick -- people will learn. Or he can give the Common Sense positive quality, then the next earned karma must be used to payback that "gift".
BlueMax
The task can be impossible.
Some groups just want to let go that night, whip out the Predator and have a blast.

I find as a players life gains responsibility (career influence, partner, kids, other hobbies) the more beer and pretzels they want game night.

BlueMax
Wandering One
Switch tactics. You've got a pair of headstrong gunbunnies and a matrix guy who wants some spotlight. Plan him some spotlight time and he might not act up as much, and hand him a $2 notepad to write shit down on. smile.gif As to the gunbunnies, if they're THAT bonkers... well... plan for it. Send 'em in as a distraction while you do the dirty work in the shadows.

Most likely scenario their chars die and you still pull off the run. smile.gif A little... training exercise.
mielikki
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 7 2010, 10:13 PM) *
I find as a players life gains responsibility (career influence, partner, kids, other hobbies) the more beer and pretzels they want game night.

BlueMax


Funny it is quite the opposite here - the GM (my husband) and I are the oldest of the group, career, mortgage, the whole package - and weīve both done the "kick the door and start shooting" before and it is no longer the fun it used to be...
LurkerOutThere
I'm getting the feeling the OP is not the group GM so we should tailor our fixes accordingly.
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 12:43 PM) *
. The game is, as agreed with GM and players beforehand, a black-hat stealthy ops type. Character creation was coordinated, so the PCs should fill all the team main roles. The split of PCs as follows:

[snip a list of PCs that doesn't compute]


That PC list, as you describe them, was the result of a consciously co-ordinated effort? I think that "black-hat stealthy" was the first plan to bite the dust quickly, before anyone rolled a single die.

So are the rest of the people at the table, besides you and the GM and you, having fun?
BlueMax
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Funny it is quite the opposite here - the GM (my husband) and I are the oldest of the group, career, mortgage, the whole package - and weīve both done the "kick the door and start shooting" before and it is no longer the fun it used to be...

Hey, I hear you. I too have owner, kids, work and so on and yet....

I send out mailers of whats going on on the Monday before a game(Saturday).
I arrange the meal, often cooking it, and sometimes even the seating.
I have premade maps from Sprawl Sites on mylar so that I can just drop a "small bar" or "bank" onto the battlemat.
From my perspective, the clearer everything is the more I can enjoy myself.

But I realize not everyone is like me.

BlueMax
mielikki
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Apr 7 2010, 10:19 PM) *
I'm getting the feeling the OP is not the group GM so we should tailor our fixes accordingly.


I was just about to point that out - my question comes from the playerīs perspective, trying to find an in-game solution for an in-game situation.
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Funny it is quite the opposite here - the GM (my husband) and I are the oldest of the group, career, mortgage, the whole package - and weīve both done the "kick the door and start shooting" before and it is no longer the fun it used to be...


I went to "plan the shit out of the mission"-ville and left again. Because: 1) the planning ended up such an empty drain on playing time (and I'd feel the same way even if I didn't have 4 kids), and 2) the fun action didn't actually start till something went wrong with the carefully orchestrated plan.

I'm not talking about it having to be kick in the door frontal assault all the time. But if it takes more than 5 minutes to "plan" (I'm not counting the legwork where you are rolling a few dice and things are actually happening in the game world) then something is seriously fubar. I'm not rolling dice, haven't for the last 30 minutes? *snore*
mielikki
QUOTE (Dwight @ Apr 7 2010, 10:21 PM) *
That PC list, as you describe them, was the result of a consciously co-ordinated effort? I think that "black-hat stealthy" was the first plan to bite the dust quickly, before anyone rolled a single die.

So are the rest of the people at the table, besides you and the GM and you, having fun?


I think they are having fun. Sometimes more than the GM, I suspect smile.gif

I believe that since it is the GM who has to do the most work for a campaign, it is up to the GM to set the tone of the play - I mean, it is no fun to run a game you donīt enjoy, itīs not like you are being paid for it...
and, after all, we all knew before we started what the game would be like.
mielikki
QUOTE (Dwight @ Apr 7 2010, 10:27 PM) *
I went to "plan the shit out of the mission"-ville and left again. Because: 1) the planning ended up such an empty drain on playing time (and I'd feel the same way even if I didn't have 4 kids), and 2) the fun action didn't actually start till something went wrong with the carefully orchestrated plan.

I'm not talking about it having to be kick in the door frontal assault all the time. But if it takes more than 5 minutes to "plan" (I'm not counting the legwork where you are rolling a few dice and things are actually happening in the game world) then something is seriously fubar. I'm not rolling dice, haven't for the last 30 minutes? *snore*


Different game styles then (and nothing wrong with that...). Rolling dice is nice, but some of the most memorable events from RPGs over the years include the nights when no die was rolled...
Catadmin
Speaking from experience, some players just like rocking the boat and screwing the rest of the group. The only way to find out if your group is this type of player is to sit down with Shaman and GM for an OOC discussion. Set up a scenario and a plan (as earlier suggested) that requires the boys to take the lead and Shaman & Mage-Girl have to sit back and play backup. If any of the boys try to "hide behind your skirts", you know that that person is behaving this way on purpose.

The other option is to, in game play, have Shaman and Mage-Girl withhold anything but the most basic support on the next mission. Mage-Girl explains "Hey, Omae, I nearly got fried. It is NOT okay for you to skunk me like that. So, you don't want a plan? Fine. I'll just stand in the sidelines and when you need someone to heal you up or bring down that magical barrier, you'll have to pay me extra, just as if you were hiring extra muscle for the job."

What I'm suggesting is not that the team gives you and Shaman an extra cut of what Mr. Johnson is paying. I'm saying that if the other "characters" choose to treat you and Shaman as expendable, then you get paid by BOTH Mr. Johnson and the boys. This is the shadows, after all. And any other pro runner would have treated these guys as expendable assets after milking them for all they were worth.

But as your character was actually nearly killed in game play, your character absolutely has the right to "blow up" at them over this. And make the point that the team needs to re-visit its focus and decide if the missions it's going to take are truly the stealthy kind or if your teammates want to take more hack-n-slash jobs. If so, somebody had better notify the Fixer before the Johnson gets torqued that subtle-touch team has started making a name for itself in the news outlets.
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 01:29 PM) *
I think they are having fun. Sometimes more than the GM, I suspect smile.gif


There appears to have been a serious miscommunication between the GM and those other players about what expectations of the PCs, and the reaction of the game world. Or you are misreading the GM and projecting your own level of unhappiness on him.

QUOTE
I believe that since it is the GM who has to do the most work for a campaign, it is up to the GM to set the tone of the play - I mean, it is no fun to run a game you donīt enjoy, itīs not like you are being paid for it...
and, after all, we all knew before we started what the game would be like.


Let's leave aside for the moment what the truly amount of work the GM "has to do".

Apparently the GM is failing at his job to communicate the tone? Is the GM fudging dice rolls or something, or not communicating the tone or WTF is going on there? How is the tone not getting set, in the other player's eyes? Or are the players are happy with it and happy with bumbling along, perfectly happy with their characters failing at a lot of stuff?

How about a realignment of expectations on your part, and if need be the GM's part, and go with that? Is that in anyway feasible? You know, be willing to live as a PC with aspirations of soaring with eagles but stuck in a flock of turkeys?
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 01:32 PM) *
Different game styles then (and nothing wrong with that...). Rolling dice is nice, but some of the most memorable events from RPGs over the years include the nights when no die was rolled...


That was to an extent me...until I found a 'good' game system. But I never had a happily memorable moment 'planning'. Whether it's dice rolling or not, things happening. Planning = dick all happening in the game world.

EDIT: And an entirely successful, 'can't fail' plan = no tension.
Catadmin
Dwight has a point that I wasn't considering in my previous post. It might be an OOC communications issue here. Different people, different expectations. After all, some people might think stealthy is "don't be noticed till you pull the trigger".

Which may or may not involve kicking in doors.
Dwight
BTW mielikki, out of curiosity, is this messageboard the first place you've openly shared and expressed these feelings?
mielikki
QUOTE (Dwight @ Apr 7 2010, 10:38 PM) *
There appears to have been a serious miscommunication between the GM and those other players about what expectations of the PCs, and the reaction of the game world. Or you are misreading the GM and projecting your own level of unhappiness on him.


I certainly can and will raise this point with the GM, however, before we get too deep into this - my question was not how to change the tone of the game, or how to communicate it, or how to solve any other issue out of game, with the help of the GM or without.

My question was, how to in-game make the guys stick to a plan they have previously agreed to. You know, the thing professionals do, if they are actually professionals smile.gif
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 01:46 PM) *
I certainly can and will raise this point with the GM, however, before we get too deep into this - my question was not how to change the tone of the game, or how to communicate it, or how to solve any other issue out of game, with the help of the GM or without.

My question was, how to in-game make the guys stick to a plan they have previously agreed to. You know, the thing professionals do, if they are actually professionals smile.gif
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!


I'm talking about getting to the root of the issue rather than trying to treat the symptoms. What would you think of a doctor that handed someone with meningitis a couple Asprins and told them to go home and relax? wink.gif

EDIT: And why bring it up with just the GM? Why not just say at the table and the end of a session "Guy's, I'm confused and we need to talk. I thought this game was going to be black-hat stealthy, which to me means [X] but what I'm seeing is [Y], what is up with that? Can we try some things to change this? Here are some suggestions for how I can help people stick more with plans." Because unilaterally just doing those things to teach 'em, well that is the path of madness and despair.
mielikki
QUOTE (Dwight @ Apr 7 2010, 10:46 PM) *
BTW mielikki, out of curiosity, is this messageboard the first place you've openly shared and expressed these feelings?


Depends on what you mean by "openly". And, what you mean by "feelings".
I did talk with some of the players and of course the GM.
And, in the past, I have seen games collapse because of long-time conflict of game style, and if this can be prevented by a small change now, everybody will win.

So more than "feelings" it is "concerns" - if this will go on for too long, it will not be that easy to solve.
BlueMax
I can't believe that this got past me

/me lowers his voice 3 octaves

"For the greater good."

That sillyness should have been added to my first post.

BlueMax
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 01:54 PM) *
And, in the past, I have seen games collapse because of long-time conflict of game style, and if this can be prevented by a small change now, everybody will win.


I'm going to be frank, your subject line (and other things) suggests to me a lack responsibility for the man in the mirror. EDIT: Oops you are, English Second Language. That is figure of speech for you taking time to think about what change in gamestyle you can make towards what they are enjoying.
mielikki
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 7 2010, 10:56 PM) *
I can't believe that this got past me

/me lowers his voice 3 octaves

"For the greater good."

That sillyness should have been added to my first post.

BlueMax


Guess it didnīt turn out as the kind of irony it was intended - please bear in mind that English is my second language!

And, due to time differences and work commitments, I will not be able to respond in the next 15 or so hours, but I will be back!
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 04:46 PM) *
My question was, how to in-game make the guys stick to a plan they have previously agreed to. You know, the thing professionals do, if they are actually professionals smile.gif
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!


<IC>If I was you, I'd give them one warning-if they continue to be drekheads, teach them the meanining of what the 6th world has to offer. And remember you can have friends (spirits) the don't.

If both you and the troll can bind 4 spirits do so, and if the party frags up/you, frag'em back or use the spirits to save yourself.

<OOC>Talk to the GM-remind him/her this is not you trying to be a slitch, it is your PC trying to keep herself alive with ametuear runners who are reckless.
tagz
Hmm... Tricky one. I like to see this being tackled from the PC side too and not just the GM side.

Well, you are the teamleader, the face, and a mage. So you have some options.

Next time they act up make an big deal out of it, in game. You may want to let them know that it's not personal, but you really need to role-play this out to keep the character consistent with whats happening.

I can see you just walking casually up to one of them as they grin over a dead guard they were supposed to sneak by, and you get up close and do a quick-draw test and pistol whip one of them in the face. You can hold back on the attack's damage but make sure it hits, shouldn't be that hard if they don't see it coming and get no defense test. Then tell the GM you are rolling an intimidate action. Have your character say in a quiet angry voice, "In MY team we make a plan and we stick to it! Do something like this again and it's coming out of YOUR SHARE!", or something like that. The successful intimidate can be useful to make them just kinda stand there and gawk for a few seconds in shock.

If you did something like that then their next action would say a lot about them. If they fall in line, then they probably just want a bigger cut of the action, and what you did gave them some of that. In that case, try to work in a little something just for them every now and them that lets them show off a tiny bit, or makes some drama. If they immediately try to pull something, like attack you (so have a bound spirit or two at the ready before you do this), then they probably just don't understand how the theme is at all and likely aren't trying to. If that's the case, maybe you should seek other players instead.

Just my thoughts.
fistandantilus4.0
For specifically IC interactions, I've got a few suggestions from games that I've seen with similar problems. A lot of it depends on how you're willing to play your PC though. Let's keep in mind for a moment that these are characters that commit crimes in varying degrees of severity for money.

First, have a frank IC conversation. "Guys, stop F-ing up. You almost hosed us on Run X the other night."

Second, depending on your character, and the characters in question, it might be appropriate to take drastic action. Keep in mind the players here though. We had one game with a character who was a constant problem. Not the player, the character. He was played correctly, but he was goign to bringing everyone else down through his actions. He got offed by another PC.

Another tip though is simply to get better organized. I did this in one of my games and it helped a lot. In second edition, we got the BattleTac system. Essentially a drone doing overwatch to set up a topographical map, and a comm system plus biomonitor on each runner, along with "Friendlies" safety systems on the guns.

It would track us and give the runner team a heads up display view of where they were, what the layout was like, and where their teammates were. In a good situation, it would also show any opposition. That combined with encrypted communications between the runners worked out a lot of the bugs. It's even easier to do in 4th edition, with abundant commlinks. give it a go.
Dwight
From my experience trying to tackle an issue like this (a very OOC, people at the table orientated one....as evidenced by the actual thread title) via IC, first or primarily, is a friggin' minefield and odds are very high someone's gonna get blown up because already failed communication + muddled communication via the encoded language of IC dialog = CLICK...WTF...BOOM

If you've already failed to get the message straight once via OOC discussions, expecting IC actions to clear things is crazy talk. Especially if you try something like using Social Skills as marginal mind-control of the other player's PC (and if you fail the roll?) I'd slot that later variant somewhere between asking another player to let you take his character sheet to the washroom for use as toilet paper and just grabbing the character sheet, dropping your pants and the table, and standing in front of the other player while sliding their character sheet up and down between your bare cheeks.
nemafow
Whats more important? The GM having fun or the players? Although the GM CAN set the style and mood, he doesnt have to?
I beleive the players having fun is more important, so sometimes I just have to have a shitty night, at the expense of my players having a good night. Sure enough, if it happened EVERY session, I wouldn't GM anymore, because, you know, I GM to have fun too?

Seems to me that although it was originally planned as a stealth ops game, it's not working.
Perhaps bring that up next session and say 'hey guys, is this stealth ops thing working for you, or would you rather do <insert game player idea here> instead'
And if it is there style of game, perhaps pointing out how its not working (explaining situations) because they might not be entirely aware of it.
Wounded Ronin
I always say have prospective players play the original Rainbow Six games.
Ol' Scratch
I admit that I've skipped past most of the replies in this thread. The answer to the subject line is pretty easy though and can be accomplished with just one word: Repercussions.

If the players keep having their characters do things that you deem inappropriate, suicidal, or whatever else (and it's fully within your right to make those judgement calls as the GM), create some actual repercussions for those acts. If it's due to only a few of the players in a group, visit those repercussions upon them. Don't be afraid to be brutal, either, but make sure the reaction is appropriate to the cause. If, for example, they go around killing everyone in sight just for shits and giggles, whoops, wouldn't you know that one of them happened to be the fiance of the local mob boss's daughter, or a Lone Star detective on his day off. Or do a few of them go charging blindly into a room with guns blazing? Oh shit, the iron blast door slams behind them and, wouldn't you know it, there's about a dozen security guards up on a nearby balcony testing out their new Ares Alphas. Alternatively, do they go around ignoring the constraints of a Johnson's deal with them? If so, gosh, it's suddenly a lot harder to get a job now, and if you do, you're getting paid a pittance. And why aren't any of their contacts returning their calls? etc.

People rarely learn when you're nice to them in these sorts of situations. It just reinforces bad behavior.
Warlordtheft
I had the party I run frag up, and they ended up losing a month (they don't remember it!! devil.gif ), and dropped them into Lagos on a suicide mission (inadvertantly setting up Dawn of the Artifacts). Of course now they are slow boating it home.

(Nicely=not kill off I assume???)
Wesley Street
As a player, there's little you can do to convince your fellow players that the choices they make are poor. Unless you're extremely charismatic in real life. I realize your character perishing is something you'd prefer to avoid so I'd perhaps suggest that your PC take the rear guard and give yourself as many escape options as possible. No GM should ever pull his punches and if your fellow players insist on behaving like idiots in-game then they can suffer the consequences.
mielikki
Thank you all very much for your replies, thoughs and different perspectives.

Dealing with this in-character will be a minefield. I know that, but still prefer that to out-of-character player-to-player shouting match (not that I would intend this, but that is how that could end up too). Of course this cannot be done by rolling the dice, but instead careful talk. And, uhm, yes, as a RL lawyer/crisis manager, I can be charismatic if I want to smile.gif

I have the GM backing me up on this - actually he thinks that after the last run, to stay in character, the Mage-girl should have actually done a lot more bitching to the other PCs (which I didnīt do as it was 1:30 am already and I really wanted everybody to just go home so I could go to bed). So, I guess Mage-girl will have a bit of a team speach at the beginning of next session - along the lines of "you almost got me killed and you should remember that I am the one the fixer talks to, so this better not happen again".

Also, if possible, the girls will spend a better portion of next run in astral, where they can watch their backs, and let the guys do their thing and get killed, if that is what they are after. Part of the problem of course is that Mage-girl cares about the rest of the team (Bladeboy is kind of like her brother and she is supposed to keep an eye on the Hacker for somebody whom she owes) but she's not their mother after all.

And, also, I guess that making sure before the action that everybody REALLY knows what they are supposed to do and why, could also help.
The Dragon Girl
In character response to this?

You drug them so they can't move, sit on them and explain in a very calm voice how much they're worth if you sell them to an organ legger, or turn them in for various crimes for the bounty.


Or maybe thats just my assassin's response. >.>
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 9 2010, 07:52 AM) *
I have the GM backing me up on this - actually he thinks that after the last run, to stay in character, the Mage-girl should have actually done a lot more bitching to the other PCs (which I didnīt do as it was 1:30 am already and I really wanted everybody to just go home so I could go to bed). So, I guess Mage-girl will have a bit of a team speach at the beginning of next session - along the lines of "you almost got me killed and you should remember that I am the one the fixer talks to, so this better not happen again".

Also, if possible, the girls will spend a better portion of next run in astral, where they can watch their backs, and let the guys do their thing and get killed, if that is what they are after. Part of the problem of course is that Mage-girl cares about the rest of the team (Bladeboy is kind of like her brother and she is supposed to keep an eye on the Hacker for somebody whom she owes) but she's not their mother after all.

And, also, I guess that making sure before the action that everybody REALLY knows what they are supposed to do and why, could also help.


Advice from a seasoned runner:Keep a spirit nearby to protect the meatbod, a watcher to go get you should your body be discovered and of course all the binded spirits that you can get your grubby little paws on for the run to support your chummers. I'd also say don't go astral from your doss. Do it from a coffin hotel/roach motel, and ward the room. But as an experienced runner, I am sure you have thought of that already.
Catadmin
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 03:46 PM) *
On which Catadmin gave me a lot of really good ideas!


Always glad to help. @=)

Saint Sithney
You must have a really different concept of Black Hat than I do. In most BH stuff I've been party to, you'd have to keep your wits about you all the time or get killed by your team mates just for the extra nuyen. The idea of someone screwing up a plan so bad that it cost the team a payout or brought on extra heat, that was like a death sentence. The rest of the team would evaluate the extent of the trespass and then decide whether they would all kill the offending character together, or whether it will just be one of them who takes a shot.

Anyway, that's obviously not the game you are playing, and probably not the game you want to play...


So, as to your situation, fisty's solution seems like the best. Put together a TacNet setup and give the hacker's Overwatch duties a break. If he's forgetting things and spacing out, then don't count on him for those things. Let him monkey around in the surrounding Matrix devices. Meanwhile, a plan is a lot easier to follow if you've got custom AROs feeding everyone information about the situation. Targets labeled with distance markers and directional arrows to show their facing, entry/exit routes pasted in the air for the thick-headed to follow, all these things and more should be yours for a low-low price of a few sensor channels an a fistfull of cred. In this way, you can direct your violent characters to where they need to be, using them like the brute-force tools they wish to be. Meanwhile the hacker, using the TacNet will have his area of sight and influence expanded, so that he can keep track of external responders and make sure that the way out is clear.

Other than the tech path to success, don't forget that you are the Face here. IC, you can convince anyone of anything. The other characters are not exempt from this. Use Leadership to reign them in and keep them on plan.
Dixie Flatline
QUOTE (nemafow @ Apr 7 2010, 07:42 PM) *
Whats more important? The GM having fun or the players? Although the GM CAN set the style and mood, he doesnt have to?
I beleive the players having fun is more important, so sometimes I just have to have a shitty night, at the expense of my players having a good night.


I believe you're fundamentally wrong.

Both the players and the GM have an equal "right" to have fun with the game.

If the GM can adapt to the players and still have fun, then yes, the GM should make the shift.

If you're not having fun, you shouldn't be running the game. It's that simple. Of course, before you quit, you should try to adjust your expectations so that you *do* have fun.

But a "suck it down, you're the GM, what you want out of the game is secondary" attitude is not healthy or conductive to a long-lasting game.

It's entirely within the GM's prerogative to have a sit down and talk with his players OOC and find out what they want out of the game. If they say they're having fun as is, ask them, in all seriousness, if they enjoy the tone of the game or if they enjoy f*cking up the GM's work. That answer will reflect where you go as a gaming group from there.
Omenowl
Find a new group to play with or play a different style from the blackops. You cannot change people and if they aren't playing like you want then either they or you need to leave.
Saint Sithney
TL;DR version of the situation for all those folks who keep giving irrelevant advice based on the thread title...

OP is a player, not the GM.
OP Player is the wife of the GM. (not likely to just abandon the game)
Player is the (reluctant) leader (by default) of the SR team. The team is disorganized.
Other, less experienced, players aren't playing particularly well due to several factors.


Thinking on it some more, mielikki, you and the GM might need to help the players better connect with the characters and the world. Most cock-ups are the result of players not caring enough about their characters to really think about consequences. All the situational awareness won't matter if they don't really understand who they are, where they are and what they're trying to accomplish. You've already said that you've got a couple of players who aren't even interested enough to read the rules.

The tech stuff mentioned previously should help the Hacker player start to recognize his potential more. The gun bunny and adept seem like action junkies and you need to start incorporating that into plans. They want to leave a high body count, and they're new to the system, so indulge them a bit. Try to come up with plans which involve waylaying a target with gunfire to force him into a close-quarters ambush. Let those guys flex a bit with their characters. Encourage them in this and you'll soon see them becoming more interested and more pliable. Once you've got them engaged in the game, you can work on getting them into the story and into their roles.

At that point, maybe you should talk to your hubby/GM about pulling a street-level restart to introduce the new people to what life is really like in the 2070s. I am a guy who believes heartily in world building as the basis of truly excellent RP, so doing some street stuff will help everyone understand and visualize the backdrop they're playing in.

So, the 3-part plan should be something like:
1) Help them be awesome. Encourage them with Pink-Mohawk style plans where they will fall in love with what they can do.
2) Go too far. Show them the consequences of all this Big Action business by purposely steering them into a situation which you think they can't handle. If they question this and start suggesting more sensible, thought-out plans then you've accomplished your stated goal. If not, well, death is all part of the game, and they obviously didn't care enough about their characters to keep from walking them into certain death.
3) Reboot! Take it to the streets. Once everybody knows what they're really capable of, and, conversely, what they're not capable of, you and the GM should help them roll up some more well-defined characters so that you can all hit the nitty-gritty and see the city. Then, you'll be RPing and hopefully, they'll love Shadowrun.
Dwight
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 9 2010, 05:52 AM) *
Dealing with this in-character will be a minefield. I know that, but still prefer that to out-of-character player-to-player shouting match (not that I would intend this, but that is how that could end up too).


You really think that you can avoid player-to-player unhappiness by hiding behind the facade of a character? eek.gif question.gif If you really think it's to the point that someone could very well yell at you over this, and you want to avoid that, just pack up and move on. Seriously, just move on. Because they sure as hell aren't going to listen any more readily to some sock puppet that is beating up on their sock puppet. frown.gif The only thing you'll teach them is to hate your guts.

With reason IMO.
Sixgun_Sage
Me and my gaming group have dealt with this alot in our various games, and not just SR. the best way to handle it is make sure out of character they know your opinion, then express it in character. Maybe gloss over the actual speach your character gives (people tend to react badly when you hog the spotlight to berate them), if that does not work clearly express your reasons for doing so out of character but a good pistol whipping coupled with judicious use of agony or pain (do not have street magic infront of me...) is clearly indicated.
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 02:43 PM) *
Our gaming group consists of the GM and 5 players. The game is, as agreed with GM and players beforehand, a black-hat stealthy ops type. Character creation was coordinated, so the PCs should fill all the team main roles. The split of PCs as follows:

Okay.

QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 02:43 PM) *
Gunboy: an ex-Lonestar officer, killing machine, slightly psychotic, but otherwise can think, if he choses to. RL first time SR player, but tries to read the rules.
Bladeboy: a phys-ad with katana. Stealthy, but first acts, than thinks. Does not talk too much. RL has played SR before, and has a good idea what his character can do.
Hacker: could be the matrix specialist, if he (RL) ever read the rules and stopped complicated ing things by geeky stuff.
Shaman: a female troll, with a bit of magic, a big club and anti-talents for anything dealing with technology. Good meatshield, with great ideas and good common sense. RL first time SR player, doesnīt know the rules well, but can find her way around.
Mage-girl (my PC): a female elf, the primary magician, face and (not so willing) teamleader. RL has played SR before and knows the rules.
of PCs as follows:


Does not follow the okay, Mage girl, and hacker could maybe fit black hat, but psycho gun guy, nope accept as the NPC you kill for being a nut job on a mission, katana phys add, yeah only in highlander is it a concealed weapon, Troll Shaman, um its a freakin troll shaman they kind of stand out.

QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 02:43 PM) *
We've been playing weekly, for the last four months. This should have been enough time for the game styles to blend, and for the players to get an idea of in-game consequences. Well, it is just not happening. For some reason, even if we can come up with a plan (usually between the mage-girl, the shaman and the gunboy), somebody (usually the hacker) forgets what he is supposed to do and why, someone else breaks the concealment, and yet somebody else (or more than one somebody) does something blatantly stupid.
If neither mage-girl nor shaman are around, the boys will just charge ahead with no plan at all, shoot/slash whatever comes their way, and forget about the very basic tactics (like don't leave the weakest team member behind in dangerous locations).


Without actually seeing it I can't know what is going on, but to give a different perspective: A lot of this can be solved by the GM piping up in game. What one person sees as stupid the other probably doesn't otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
The Hacker forgetting things: well that sucks but ask the Gm if you guys can remind the guy about the plan ooc to help him out.

someone else breaks the concealment: sounds bad, but remember the game world is being communicated to the players via the GM. He may be saying things in a way that communicates they need to move and take action because the cover is getting blown anyways. The same goes for doing something blatantly stupid.


QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 02:43 PM) *
I am not too happy either - last night my PC almost got killed because of the rest of the team not being able to carry out a plan that we went over twice (mage-girl was to seduce the target and lead him into ambush, rest of the team was to wait till she slaps a tranq-patch on him and then attack with full non-lethal force - hacker forgot to give warning and bladeboy, with a katana and an UZI under his coat, decided to openly walk around the dark alley to get better position in front of the target... and when the target became suspicious and almost slit mage-girl's throat, bladeboy proceeded to kill the target right away, leaving us with just a corpse to get information from...).


moving to get a better position seems like a good strategy to me. Was it openly because you and the Gm decide to read stupid into everything they do. Chances are they meant to stealthily move into a better position and not go down the alley while shooting off fireworks. A simple question by the GM do you want to move into position using stealth or just gamble he wont see you, would probably solve it. And yes killing the target sucks when you wanted to take them alive, but since the apparent option could have been kill the dude or watch the dude kill your mage, maybe it was a good choice.


QUOTE (mielikki @ Apr 7 2010, 02:43 PM) *
I've tried not interfering and letting them plan their part of action by themselves, without instruction. Result: no plan, luckily nobody died, but not their achievement.
I've tried working out a plan with them, going over it, assigning roles. Result: see above.


The environment is communicated by the GM, players aren't master criminals, and over sites can be asked about from the GM instead of just assuming the worst.

Maybe they are as bad as you say for your gaming style, but maybe there no plans that they use are not as dumb as you think and just come from seeing the world differently as communicated by the GM. One description read by the GM in a group of 5 players can be heard and interpreted in 5 different ways. asking why someone is doing something might clear up issues of miss communication. Now if there answer is I just want to shoot shit, yeah probably not the group you are looking for in a black hats game.
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