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> Armored to the Teeth, When armor goes to far...
Digital Heroin
post Feb 16 2004, 12:04 AM
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Now, I'll start off by saying this, I have my share of character that fall into the following, but they're rare.

Why does it seem, these days, that every character out there is packing two or three types, or even layers of armor? Armor is good, it's cool, it's grand; but when every joe dandy out there's got a form fitting full bodysuit, and a long jacket over top, well I think things have gone a bit far.

Consider that every point of ballistic armor above a character's Quickness imposes a one point Target Number modifier on all Quickness tests (Layering Armor, p. 285 SR3). That means the more armor you wear, the less effective you are in a firefight. Sure, if Mr. SecMan shoots you, you're less likely to get hurt, but you're less likely to even hit him at all. Then consider that for every two points of Ballistic OR Impact armor above your character's Quickness, your Combat Pool is reduced by a die (Armor and Combat Pool p. 285 SR3). This means less chance to dodge, hit, resist... hell, you start to suck more in combat period.

Now, numbers aside for the moment, consideration number three: the social implications. It's been delved into at great length that obvious cyberware can put people ill at ease. Can the same not be said of armor? Sure, most armor's concealable, but to a point. Wearing form fitting with secure clothes and an armored vest isn't exactly easy to hide. Let's say they see through the guise though. It's safe to asume anyone wearing armor's not exactly just at the reception desk for an appointment, neh?

Whatever happened to the days where planning was key; where if a gun had to be pulled the run was hosed? Seems like people are more content now tanking themselves up and saying `hell with it, they question me, I waste 'em.`

For those of you who are thinking -well isn't the only way to be safe to layer armor?- you're mistaken my friends.

For starters, we have Patrial Cover (Tanged Combat Modifiers p. 112 SR3). That's right kids, when the going gets tough, duck behind something. Even that simple modifier gives your opponent a +4 TN to hit you. Now go figure, when you exercise your brain, your chances of not even getting hit grow. The expanded rules for cover (Cover Modifiers p. 97 CC) make things even more fun. The better you hide, the better your odds of not getting hit. Sure, you incur a small penalty to hit yourself, but nothing compared to your opponent.

If your GM is down with the rules, and likes to allow optionals, then you're in even better luck. The more athletic you are, the better you can dodge my friends. Each sucess on an Althetics test, or appropriate specialty of Athletics, can gain you a bonus die to dodge (Athetics and Dodging p. 97 CC).

Example Time:

Killroy the Merc and LiquidSmooth are cornered in an alleyway by a pair of Lone Star cops. Both runners have a Quickness of 5, Althetics of 4, and a Combat Pool of 7. Both are unwounded when it comes time for the 'Star to open fire.

Killroy stood defiantly in the middle of the alleyway when his turn rolled around. His full formfitting armor (4/1), Secure Clothing (3/0), and Secure Long Coat (4/2) shall surely protect him. Of course, having a total Ballistic score of 11, and only a Quickness of 5, he had a +6 TN to all of his shots at the cops, and missed rather soundly, despite burning 3 dice to try and hit them. Now, when the cops fire at him, his Combat Pool only has a single die in it! He would have had 4, but since his Balistic rating is 6 higher than his Quickness, he loses (6/2) 3 dice from it. He'd better be glad the 'Star aren't packing higher powered weapons.

Smooth, meanwhile, has ducked behind some detrius left in the alley. He knows his Real Leather (0/2) Jacket's not going to hold up too well under the Thunderbolt's wrath. The debris doesn't cover him even halfway up, but it's still enough to give his attacker a +2 modifier on his attack. When it comes down to it, Smooth uses the same 4 dice out of his combat pool Killroy would have to dodge, as well, he uses his Athletics to gain a possible addition of eight dice. Odds are, the Lone Star cop won't even hit him, and he'll still have 3 dice left over to supplement his attack, and only a -1 TN from the cover modifier.


Smooth may have to be a bit more paranoid, but that's what running's about. The constant knowledge that something could go wrong, but the ability to handle it in any situation. At least he's not going to have to worry about being useless without his wealth of armor.


Oh, and for an even more fun example, take Wavewalker, my character for the High Seas game. He's an adept with a combat pool of 7, and 10 dice in Athletics. Sure, he doesn't wear armor, but you try and shoot the guy.
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Siege
post Feb 16 2004, 12:15 AM
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1. 10 dice in Athletics doesn't help if your GM doesn't allow the 'Athletics in place of Combat pool to Dodge' rule.

2. Layering armor sucks for anyone doesn't have a massive quickness because of the associated penalties to _all_ Quickness-related skills.

And speaking as the occasional samurai, I don't routinely walk around in a Seattle summer hauling form-fitting body armor + armor jacket. However, in an overt penetration where gunfire may be a real possibility, ya damn skippy I'm gonna put as much armor between my backside and incoming fire.

-Siege
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Digital Heroin
post Feb 16 2004, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE
10 dice in Athletics doesn't help if your GM doesn't allow the 'Athletics in place of Combat pool to Dodge' rule.


True, but that's why I stipulated that in the rant. Still is cool for outrunning combat... :D

QUOTE
Layering armor sucks for anyone doesn't have a massive quickness because of the associated penalties to _all_ Quickness-related skills.


Aye, true indeed. Those penalties add up mighty quick.



The reason I ranted thusly, is mainly because of another thread, where one of the prime arguments against playing a shifter was that they suck beacuase they can't take armor with them. My thought was: so what?
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crazyivans
post Feb 16 2004, 12:26 AM
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If I am not mistaken, Doesn't FF Body Armour provide protection without the Quickness penalties? [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]
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Shanshu Freeman
post Feb 16 2004, 12:31 AM
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QUOTE (crazyivans)
If I am not mistaken, Doesn't FF Body Armour provide protection without the Quickness penalties? [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]

afaik FFBA and Second Skin don't count towards layering penalties.
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Digital Heroin
post Feb 16 2004, 12:33 AM
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Ok, one research goodie missed. Still, there's a -2 penalty on that, and a loss of Combat Pool, both of which are cardinal sins in my book. Paranoia to the point of detriment.
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Jason Farlander
post Feb 16 2004, 01:03 AM
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Form-fitting body armor does not factor into either quickness modifiers or combat pool loss. I dont know what youre talking about concerning the "-2 modifier" you mentioned.

The reason so many runners wear an armored jacket or lined coat over a FFBA FS is because theres no reason *not* to do so. 6/2 or 7/3 armor with no penalties whatsoever if you have a quickness of 4 or 5 respectively is a nice thing. Theres no crime in being prepared for the firefight youd like to avoid if such preparedness doesnt negatively impact you.

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Digital Heroin
post Feb 16 2004, 01:08 AM
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You're missing out on the Armor Clothing in there. That's what brings about the TN penalty.

And I still hold true to the beliefe that FFBA is the most overused equipment in the game. It's like everyone and their brother has a pair. Next thing you know, Mary Jane secreaty'll be wearing it under her pantsuit.
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toturi
post Feb 16 2004, 01:10 AM
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If putting on SO MUCH armour is verboten, then don't. That's what I (for NPCs) and my players (for their characters) do. FFBA, Secure armour(or armour with higher conceal) and a high conceal longcoat(better yet, put the longocat in a set).

There you have it. Wear just enough armour to put the max amount of armour on yourself without penalties.
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Fortune
post Feb 16 2004, 01:11 AM
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One would think that if it was that unfashionable to wear armor, or everyone that wears it is up to nefarious ends, then ther would be no Tres Chic or High Fashion armored clothing lines, like Zoe, Vashon Island, Armante, etc. Since these exist, and are relatively good sellers among the corporate and society elite, there doesn't seem to be the stigma attached to wearing this type of thing that you think there is.

As to FFBA, AFAIK it incurs no penalties when layered, whether they be Quickess or Combat Pool related.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 16 2004, 01:11 AM
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Furthermore, Athletics only helps Dodging if you take a Complex Action, meaning you do more or less nothing else but run that combat phase.

~J
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Jason Farlander
post Feb 16 2004, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin)
You're missing out on the Armor Clothing in there. That's what brings about the TN penalty.

And I still hold true to the beliefe that FFBA is the most overused equipment in the game. It's like everyone and their brother has a pair. Next thing you know, Mary Jane secreaty'll be wearing it under her pantsuit.

Ok. Armored clothing. Never bother with it, myself (except for the nicer stuff in CC for appropriate situations).

As for FFBA being overused... As I said, theres no reason for a runner not to have it. Its relatively cheap and wonderfully effective with no impact on your abilities. Thats kinda like saying that getting full replacement cybereyes is overused, since most people who get cybereye systems get full replacement -- its just an effective and efficient use of resources.

Mary Jane secretary probably wouldnt ever get FFBA, since its 2000 :nuyen: down the toilet as far as she is concerned. Secretaries generally dont expect to be shot at when they make a mistake. Shadowrunners do. 2000 :nuyen: isn't a lot of money compared to the added peace of mind the FFBA offers.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 16 2004, 01:32 AM
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Also, and this is a role-playing only aspect, FFBA (at least the more complete stuff) is probably quite uncomfortable on a hot day.

~J
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Fortune
post Feb 16 2004, 01:34 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Also, and this is a role-playing only aspect, FFBA (at least the more complete stuff) is probably quite uncomfortable on a hot day.

So is bleeding to death in an alley because you didn't want to sweat too much. :)
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Siege
post Feb 16 2004, 01:39 AM
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Heat stroke can be a real pain.

-Siege
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toturi
post Feb 16 2004, 01:42 AM
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Two ways you can look at it... Ever been in a desert? 40+ degree celsius in sunlight? Searing hot sun, the type that turns the steel helmet on your head into a frying pan and your brain into a hard boiled egg? One additional layer of insulation can be such a relief. I've sweat all you want, but give me that Full body FFBA please.

Or been out in the cold? (I'm sure all you northerners would have) FFBA covers your head too.
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Digital Heroin
post Feb 16 2004, 01:47 AM
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If it covered your head, it wouldn't be too concealable, now would it? :D
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Herald of Verjig...
post Feb 16 2004, 02:07 AM
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The FFBA full suit comes with a hood, but it's categorized more as a style aspect than an armor factor.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 16 2004, 02:32 AM
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QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 16 2004, 12:32 PM)
Also, and this is a role-playing only aspect, FFBA (at least the more complete stuff) is probably quite uncomfortable on a hot day.

So is bleeding to death in an alley because you didn't want to sweat too much. :)

But it's a pretty compelling reason for Mary Jane the secretary not to wear the stuff, ne?

~J
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John Campbell
post Feb 16 2004, 03:10 AM
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Depends what kind of neighborhood Mary Jane's got to walk through on her way to work...
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Siege
post Feb 16 2004, 03:15 AM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
Depends what kind of neighborhood Mary Jane's got to walk through on her way to work...

If she's a corp wench, odds are it's the Arcology.

-Siege
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Fortune
post Feb 16 2004, 05:27 AM
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Not every corper lives the Arcology life. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that less than 50% actually do.
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TheScamp
post Feb 16 2004, 05:31 AM
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QUOTE
Two ways you can look at it... Ever been in a desert? 40+ degree celsius in sunlight? Searing hot sun, the type that turns the steel helmet on your head into a frying pan and your brain into a hard boiled egg? One additional layer of insulation can be such a relief. I've sweat all you want, but give me that Full body FFBA please.

Care to try that in a place where it gets, you know, humid?
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toturi
post Feb 16 2004, 07:19 AM
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I lived in places that put the humidity in humid. Jungle training in Brunei and Thailand anyone?

I stay in Singapore, we've rain nearly every other day throughout the year. In fact, I looking at a rain cloud right out of my window, yup, it's raining again.
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Hecatonchires
post Feb 16 2004, 07:53 AM
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Umm... hardened military armor anyone? I mean damn, if you are going all out and just don't give a f-ck who sees you then why settle for less. Better yet, combine it with titanium bone lacing and orthoskin for even more munchkin fun. Or be a troll on top of that. Anyone care to do the numbers on that and see if I am right.

As for humidity. Speak not of it to me. I live in the Ohio River Valley and we HAVE the worst air quality in the summer of any place I have ever been to. You can catch a fungal lung infection here that is only really prevalent in one other part of the world... the Amazon.

[ Spoiler ]
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