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Digital Heroin
Now, I'll start off by saying this, I have my share of character that fall into the following, but they're rare.

Why does it seem, these days, that every character out there is packing two or three types, or even layers of armor? Armor is good, it's cool, it's grand; but when every joe dandy out there's got a form fitting full bodysuit, and a long jacket over top, well I think things have gone a bit far.

Consider that every point of ballistic armor above a character's Quickness imposes a one point Target Number modifier on all Quickness tests (Layering Armor, p. 285 SR3). That means the more armor you wear, the less effective you are in a firefight. Sure, if Mr. SecMan shoots you, you're less likely to get hurt, but you're less likely to even hit him at all. Then consider that for every two points of Ballistic OR Impact armor above your character's Quickness, your Combat Pool is reduced by a die (Armor and Combat Pool p. 285 SR3). This means less chance to dodge, hit, resist... hell, you start to suck more in combat period.

Now, numbers aside for the moment, consideration number three: the social implications. It's been delved into at great length that obvious cyberware can put people ill at ease. Can the same not be said of armor? Sure, most armor's concealable, but to a point. Wearing form fitting with secure clothes and an armored vest isn't exactly easy to hide. Let's say they see through the guise though. It's safe to asume anyone wearing armor's not exactly just at the reception desk for an appointment, neh?

Whatever happened to the days where planning was key; where if a gun had to be pulled the run was hosed? Seems like people are more content now tanking themselves up and saying `hell with it, they question me, I waste 'em.`

For those of you who are thinking -well isn't the only way to be safe to layer armor?- you're mistaken my friends.

For starters, we have Patrial Cover (Tanged Combat Modifiers p. 112 SR3). That's right kids, when the going gets tough, duck behind something. Even that simple modifier gives your opponent a +4 TN to hit you. Now go figure, when you exercise your brain, your chances of not even getting hit grow. The expanded rules for cover (Cover Modifiers p. 97 CC) make things even more fun. The better you hide, the better your odds of not getting hit. Sure, you incur a small penalty to hit yourself, but nothing compared to your opponent.

If your GM is down with the rules, and likes to allow optionals, then you're in even better luck. The more athletic you are, the better you can dodge my friends. Each sucess on an Althetics test, or appropriate specialty of Athletics, can gain you a bonus die to dodge (Athetics and Dodging p. 97 CC).

Example Time:

Killroy the Merc and LiquidSmooth are cornered in an alleyway by a pair of Lone Star cops. Both runners have a Quickness of 5, Althetics of 4, and a Combat Pool of 7. Both are unwounded when it comes time for the 'Star to open fire.

Killroy stood defiantly in the middle of the alleyway when his turn rolled around. His full formfitting armor (4/1), Secure Clothing (3/0), and Secure Long Coat (4/2) shall surely protect him. Of course, having a total Ballistic score of 11, and only a Quickness of 5, he had a +6 TN to all of his shots at the cops, and missed rather soundly, despite burning 3 dice to try and hit them. Now, when the cops fire at him, his Combat Pool only has a single die in it! He would have had 4, but since his Balistic rating is 6 higher than his Quickness, he loses (6/2) 3 dice from it. He'd better be glad the 'Star aren't packing higher powered weapons.

Smooth, meanwhile, has ducked behind some detrius left in the alley. He knows his Real Leather (0/2) Jacket's not going to hold up too well under the Thunderbolt's wrath. The debris doesn't cover him even halfway up, but it's still enough to give his attacker a +2 modifier on his attack. When it comes down to it, Smooth uses the same 4 dice out of his combat pool Killroy would have to dodge, as well, he uses his Athletics to gain a possible addition of eight dice. Odds are, the Lone Star cop won't even hit him, and he'll still have 3 dice left over to supplement his attack, and only a -1 TN from the cover modifier.


Smooth may have to be a bit more paranoid, but that's what running's about. The constant knowledge that something could go wrong, but the ability to handle it in any situation. At least he's not going to have to worry about being useless without his wealth of armor.


Oh, and for an even more fun example, take Wavewalker, my character for the High Seas game. He's an adept with a combat pool of 7, and 10 dice in Athletics. Sure, he doesn't wear armor, but you try and shoot the guy.
Siege
1. 10 dice in Athletics doesn't help if your GM doesn't allow the 'Athletics in place of Combat pool to Dodge' rule.

2. Layering armor sucks for anyone doesn't have a massive quickness because of the associated penalties to _all_ Quickness-related skills.

And speaking as the occasional samurai, I don't routinely walk around in a Seattle summer hauling form-fitting body armor + armor jacket. However, in an overt penetration where gunfire may be a real possibility, ya damn skippy I'm gonna put as much armor between my backside and incoming fire.

-Siege
Digital Heroin
QUOTE
10 dice in Athletics doesn't help if your GM doesn't allow the 'Athletics in place of Combat pool to Dodge' rule.


True, but that's why I stipulated that in the rant. Still is cool for outrunning combat... biggrin.gif

QUOTE
Layering armor sucks for anyone doesn't have a massive quickness because of the associated penalties to _all_ Quickness-related skills.


Aye, true indeed. Those penalties add up mighty quick.



The reason I ranted thusly, is mainly because of another thread, where one of the prime arguments against playing a shifter was that they suck beacuase they can't take armor with them. My thought was: so what?
crazyivans
If I am not mistaken, Doesn't FF Body Armour provide protection without the Quickness penalties? [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (crazyivans)
If I am not mistaken, Doesn't FF Body Armour provide protection without the Quickness penalties? [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]

afaik FFBA and Second Skin don't count towards layering penalties.
Digital Heroin
Ok, one research goodie missed. Still, there's a -2 penalty on that, and a loss of Combat Pool, both of which are cardinal sins in my book. Paranoia to the point of detriment.
Jason Farlander
Form-fitting body armor does not factor into either quickness modifiers or combat pool loss. I dont know what youre talking about concerning the "-2 modifier" you mentioned.

The reason so many runners wear an armored jacket or lined coat over a FFBA FS is because theres no reason *not* to do so. 6/2 or 7/3 armor with no penalties whatsoever if you have a quickness of 4 or 5 respectively is a nice thing. Theres no crime in being prepared for the firefight youd like to avoid if such preparedness doesnt negatively impact you.

Digital Heroin
You're missing out on the Armor Clothing in there. That's what brings about the TN penalty.

And I still hold true to the beliefe that FFBA is the most overused equipment in the game. It's like everyone and their brother has a pair. Next thing you know, Mary Jane secreaty'll be wearing it under her pantsuit.
toturi
If putting on SO MUCH armour is verboten, then don't. That's what I (for NPCs) and my players (for their characters) do. FFBA, Secure armour(or armour with higher conceal) and a high conceal longcoat(better yet, put the longocat in a set).

There you have it. Wear just enough armour to put the max amount of armour on yourself without penalties.
Fortune
One would think that if it was that unfashionable to wear armor, or everyone that wears it is up to nefarious ends, then ther would be no Tres Chic or High Fashion armored clothing lines, like Zoe, Vashon Island, Armante, etc. Since these exist, and are relatively good sellers among the corporate and society elite, there doesn't seem to be the stigma attached to wearing this type of thing that you think there is.

As to FFBA, AFAIK it incurs no penalties when layered, whether they be Quickess or Combat Pool related.
Kagetenshi
Furthermore, Athletics only helps Dodging if you take a Complex Action, meaning you do more or less nothing else but run that combat phase.

~J
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Digital Heroin)
You're missing out on the Armor Clothing in there. That's what brings about the TN penalty.

And I still hold true to the beliefe that FFBA is the most overused equipment in the game. It's like everyone and their brother has a pair. Next thing you know, Mary Jane secreaty'll be wearing it under her pantsuit.

Ok. Armored clothing. Never bother with it, myself (except for the nicer stuff in CC for appropriate situations).

As for FFBA being overused... As I said, theres no reason for a runner not to have it. Its relatively cheap and wonderfully effective with no impact on your abilities. Thats kinda like saying that getting full replacement cybereyes is overused, since most people who get cybereye systems get full replacement -- its just an effective and efficient use of resources.

Mary Jane secretary probably wouldnt ever get FFBA, since its 2000 nuyen.gif down the toilet as far as she is concerned. Secretaries generally dont expect to be shot at when they make a mistake. Shadowrunners do. 2000 nuyen.gif isn't a lot of money compared to the added peace of mind the FFBA offers.
Kagetenshi
Also, and this is a role-playing only aspect, FFBA (at least the more complete stuff) is probably quite uncomfortable on a hot day.

~J
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Also, and this is a role-playing only aspect, FFBA (at least the more complete stuff) is probably quite uncomfortable on a hot day.

So is bleeding to death in an alley because you didn't want to sweat too much. smile.gif
Siege
Heat stroke can be a real pain.

-Siege
toturi
Two ways you can look at it... Ever been in a desert? 40+ degree celsius in sunlight? Searing hot sun, the type that turns the steel helmet on your head into a frying pan and your brain into a hard boiled egg? One additional layer of insulation can be such a relief. I've sweat all you want, but give me that Full body FFBA please.

Or been out in the cold? (I'm sure all you northerners would have) FFBA covers your head too.
Digital Heroin
If it covered your head, it wouldn't be too concealable, now would it? biggrin.gif
Herald of Verjigorm
The FFBA full suit comes with a hood, but it's categorized more as a style aspect than an armor factor.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 16 2004, 12:32 PM)
Also, and this is a role-playing only aspect, FFBA (at least the more complete stuff) is probably quite uncomfortable on a hot day.

So is bleeding to death in an alley because you didn't want to sweat too much. smile.gif

But it's a pretty compelling reason for Mary Jane the secretary not to wear the stuff, ne?

~J
John Campbell
Depends what kind of neighborhood Mary Jane's got to walk through on her way to work...
Siege
QUOTE (John Campbell)
Depends what kind of neighborhood Mary Jane's got to walk through on her way to work...

If she's a corp wench, odds are it's the Arcology.

-Siege
Fortune
Not every corper lives the Arcology life. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that less than 50% actually do.
TheScamp
QUOTE
Two ways you can look at it... Ever been in a desert? 40+ degree celsius in sunlight? Searing hot sun, the type that turns the steel helmet on your head into a frying pan and your brain into a hard boiled egg? One additional layer of insulation can be such a relief. I've sweat all you want, but give me that Full body FFBA please.

Care to try that in a place where it gets, you know, humid?
toturi
I lived in places that put the humidity in humid. Jungle training in Brunei and Thailand anyone?

I stay in Singapore, we've rain nearly every other day throughout the year. In fact, I looking at a rain cloud right out of my window, yup, it's raining again.
Hecatonchires
Umm... hardened military armor anyone? I mean damn, if you are going all out and just don't give a f-ck who sees you then why settle for less. Better yet, combine it with titanium bone lacing and orthoskin for even more munchkin fun. Or be a troll on top of that. Anyone care to do the numbers on that and see if I am right.

As for humidity. Speak not of it to me. I live in the Ohio River Valley and we HAVE the worst air quality in the summer of any place I have ever been to. You can catch a fungal lung infection here that is only really prevalent in one other part of the world... the Amazon.

[ Spoiler ]
Shanshu Freeman
QUOTE (Hecatonchires)
Umm... hardened military armor anyone? I mean damn, if you are going all out and just don't give a f-ck who sees you then why settle for less. Better yet, combine it with titanium bone lacing and orthoskin for even more munchkin fun. Or be a troll on top of that. Anyone care to do the numbers on that and see if I am right.

As for humidity. Speak not of it to me. I live in the Ohio River Valley and we HAVE the worst air quality in the summer of any place I have ever been to. You can catch a fungal lung infection here that is only really prevalent in one other part of the world... the Amazon.

[ Spoiler ]

because you have to deal with the in game reactions to people learning about your hardened military grade armor. The first kid on the block with it, is the first kid on the block to have it stolen.
John Campbell
QUOTE (Hecatonchires)
If you ever want to piss off your entire game group use the above troll armed with a Panther Assault Cannon as an opponent or your character in the game. Totally and completely unbalanced is the only thing to call it.

What's his Willpower? biggrin.gif
Hecatonchires
Good point.
I guess you could twink that too though. Or maybe someone is spell shielding him. There you go, now you really can piss off your entire game group. devil.gif
Suenert
1 Hardened Millitary Armor
Avail: 18/4 weeks Price: 25.000 Nuyen

1 Great Dragon Launcher
Avail: 8/48 hours Price: 1.200 Nuyen

1 Great Dragon ATGM
Avail: 8/48 hours Price: 1.000 Nuyen

TheScamp
QUOTE
I lived in places that put the humidity in humid. Jungle training in Brunei and Thailand anyone?

So you're saying that you'd be fine wearing super-heavy long underwear, pants, a shirt, and a heavy jacket in those places?

QUOTE
I guess you could twink that too though. Or maybe someone is spell shielding him. There you go, now you really can piss off your entire game group.

Or, they could get the idea that it's such a great combo that they have to duplicate it, immediately.
Siege
I guess it depends on how many people are shooting at the time...grinbig.gif

-Siege
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (TheScamp)
So you're saying that you'd be fine wearing super-heavy long underwear, pants, a shirt, and a heavy jacket in those places?

And don't forget: Body armor doesn't breathe for shit, and doesn't let the sweat escape.
TheScamp
Not that sweat does a hell of a lot in 90% humidity, but yeah. smile.gif
Neon Tiger
7 points of ballistic armor isn't even really that much. One could have a starting character that has armor of B/I 11/7. How? Let me show you.

Son of Sam, the street samurai is getting ready for the nights run. He knows there's a good possibility for getting into a firefight, so he decides to put his best gear to use. He puts on his FFBA-3 (4/1), then straps on his Vest with plates (4/3) and finally, an urban camo suit (5/3). This gives him total armor of 9/4. But wait! He is a mean a son of a bi... samurai, and has Orthoskin-3 and titanium bonelacing, providing him with extra cumulative armor of 2/3. This gives him armor ratings of 11/7. And it's possible to have a starting character like this. And don't get me started when mages have sustaining focused Armor-6 spells and layered armor. Or full-cyborg trolls with 7/3 cyberarmor and layered armor and body scores of 14. biggrin.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (TheScamp)
Not that sweat does a hell of a lot in 90% humidity, but yeah. smile.gif

It's the difference between heavy clothing and heavy leather clothing with a wetsuit for underwear. Even in cold conditions that will just plain suck.
TheOneRonin
I live southern Louisiana, and I can vouche for the humidity and weather as well as how what you wear can affect you. In this part of the country, you don't want to be anywhere near thick/heavy clothing from May to September. The actual temperatures are high, and the humidity just pushes it way over the top.

I spent several years in an Army National Guard Infantry Unit here, and we did much of our training at Fort Polk, LA. Let me tell you, running around in just your BDUs (long pants, t-shirt, long-sleeve blouse) was seriously uncomfortable. And during live fire exercises we had to layer flack-jackets over that. That was beyond uncomfortable.

I suppose another consideration about armor is what is the mission plan? If you want to be relatively unobtrusive, and be able to blend back into the general throng of people right after then run, then you need to wear something that helps you blend in. If you are planning a rapid penetration with a rapid extraction, why not wear light security armor?

In my group, the runners only use the "Secure Line" of concealable body armor as a protection contingency. They rarely leave home without at least an armored jacket or FFBA (weather depending), but it's not what they wear on an actual run.

The one thing nice about most runs is that they are usually short-term operations, so wearing uncomfortable armor rarely becomes a factor. It's not like they are often "downrange" for days at a time. Though, my current group of players who are stuck in Morocco would disagree.
toturi
It doesn't matter how much armour I wear except for the weight and the bulkiness (quickness and combat pool).

Look, it doesn't really matter that you've got a vest over your fatigues and you are wearing a damned wetsuit-like underwear underneath after a while. You learn to ignore uncomfortable, kinda like you learn to ignore the stink coming from your clothes after a week in the field.

The only consideration is that all that shit on me weighs me down, especially after trekking neck deep through a swamp and everything is waterlogged, and your platoon mate goes "Hey, look! Wildboar shit!" at an unidentified piece of debris that is floating past your face.
Austere Emancipator
Once you get to the heat stroke, it's no longer a question of being uncomfortable. Or when you start to dehydrate, because your skin goes mad as it tries to pump out more and more sweat because none of it is evaporating or cooling you down.

And I wasn't discussing specifically jungle environments. In any environment, wearing a wetsuit-like suit of underwear won't be good for you.
Siege
QUOTE (Neon Tiger)
7 points of ballistic armor isn't even really that much. One could have a starting character that has armor of B/I 11/7. How? Let me show you.

Son of Sam, the street samurai is getting ready for the nights run. He knows there's a good possibility for getting into a firefight, so he decides to put his best gear to use. He puts on his FFBA-3 (4/1), then straps on his Vest with plates (4/3) and finally, an urban camo suit (5/3). This gives him total armor of 9/4. But wait! He is a mean a son of a bi... samurai, and has Orthoskin-3 and titanium bonelacing, providing him with extra cumulative armor of 2/3. This gives him armor ratings of 11/7. And it's possible to have a starting character like this. And don't get me started when mages have sustaining focused Armor-6 spells and layered armor. Or full-cyborg trolls with 7/3 cyberarmor and layered armor and body scores of 14. biggrin.gif

Sure -- but remember those Quickness penalties will start to seriously suck and being able to return fire is always more important than being able to stop fire.

After all, anyone can stop incoming fire...at least until someone does up overpenetration rules. grinbig.gif

-Siege
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Once you get to the heat stroke, it's no longer a question of being uncomfortable. Or when you start to dehydrate, because your skin goes mad as it tries to pump out more and more sweat because none of it is evaporating or cooling you down.

And I wasn't discussing specifically jungle environments. In any environment, wearing a wetsuit-like suit of underwear won't be good for you.

The description of FFBA specifically mentiones that the fabric is breatheable. Now, it is *not* recommended (be me) that you chemseal your FFBA FS.
Raptor1033
what about that heat venting clothing that sports enthusiasts wear under their padding to keep them cold? my brother was trying that stuff on when he got them and was shivering before layering his pads on.
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
The description of FFBA specifically mentiones that the fabric is breatheable.

Sweet! Haven't got CC here, does it mention anything about how it acts with liquids?

If it both allows water to soak through and breaths, then obviously body armor is manufactured with completely different kinds of methods out of completely different kinds of materials (not just better, but completely unlike in chemical properties).

QUOTE (Raptor1033)
what about that heat venting clothing that sports enthusiasts wear under their padding to keep them cold?

Sweat-wicking undershirts will come in handy with armor worn over clothing, but it won't help much with FF armor. I remember a discussion here about cooling clothing to be worn under armor, but I think that was for powered full rigid armor, and most of that stuff was pretty bulky and heavy. Too much so for most social situations anyway.
moosegod
Anyways- If the team is too heavily armored, just bring in a Novopossom or Rockworm.

Yes, Cheshire Cat. I'm talking about you. Damn you and your Light Combat Armor!
sable twilight
QUOTE (Suenert)
1 Hardened Millitary Armor
Avail: 18/4 weeks Price: 25.000 Nuyen

1 Great Dragon Launcher
Avail: 8/48 hours Price: 1.200 Nuyen

1 Great Dragon ATGM
Avail: 8/48 hours Price: 1.000 Nuyen

Wreaking total havoc on your enemies.
Priceless
LoseAsDirected
Why wouldn't a runner wear FFBA and a Secure Long Coat? The Secure Long Coat gives nice bonuses to coneal ratings, as well as a good ballistic rating. FFBA can easily be concealed under normal clothing, doesn't give you a penalty, adds 2 more ballistic points, and when you're on a run, that hood can ensure that any security cameras that DO get a feed on you wont give away your face..
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
The description of FFBA specifically mentiones that the fabric is breatheable.

Sweet! Haven't got CC here, does it mention anything about how it acts with liquids?

If it both allows water to soak through and breaths, then obviously body armor is manufactured with completely different kinds of methods out of completely different kinds of materials (not just better, but completely unlike in chemical properties).


All it says in CC in this regard is: "Using advanced synthetic materials that breathe and stretch with the body, form-fitting body armor is custom tailored to the individual."

I presume that it was listed in the street samurai catalog, which I do not possess... but I'm sure that the SSC catalog has more fluff information about it than the CC does. I do know (from the equipment table in shadowtech) that it has a higher availability and costs 4 times as much in SR3 than it did in SR2. Interesting.
Siege
On daily wear, the Long Coat is great for offering conceal bonuses.

On a combat kit operation, as a strictly role-playing aspect, concealment is not as important as protection and the long flapping tails would just get in the way.

-Siege
REM
QUOTE (Siege)
On daily wear, the Long Coat is great for offering conceal bonuses.

On a combat kit operation, as a strictly role-playing aspect, concealment is not as important as protection and the long flapping tails would just get in the way.

-Siege

Bah every one knows that long coats and or cloaks are extreamly conducive to fighting. And if you dont then watch more anime damnit.
say.... i want an armored cloack for shadowrun..... it would be neat cause if it got in your way you could just toss it off. Or toss it off in front of you as you move to distract a shooter.
Kagetenshi
Actually, having done swordwork in a long coat, the form of the shoulders and sleeves is significantly more of a barrier to proper fighting than the flapping tails.

~J
Siege
Armored cloak?

Check out "The Count", CC -- London Fog line. Page 46.

-Siege

Edit: Really Kage? I've never had a problem with my trench coat and arm/shoulder flexability. Of course, I wasn't playing with a sword either.
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