[X] My Assistant

[Enin]

I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.

In all fairness, Cain asked JH to say something good about CGL. Whether or not that's what Cain was looking for is another matter entirely.

[JM Hardy]

I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.

Which helps prove the point I assumed would come up pretty soon. If I don't post good things about Catalyst, then according to Cain there is nothing good going on. If I do post good things, then it's "self-aggrandizing crappola." Why, I can't at all see why I might be reluctant to engage in these discussions!

Jason H.

[Ancient History]

Jason, be fair. That's not posting good things about CGL, that's posting ad copy that I couldn't read with a straight face.

[augmentin]

RE: JMH
No doubt a good publicist would advise you not to. Personally, I'm glad to have someone representing the "official" side of thing, vague though you often are. I suspect your personal opinions are stronger than what you are able to post in your official capacity, but, oh, that would be speculation...

[tweak]

Which helps prove the point I assumed would come up pretty soon. If I don't post good things about Catalyst, then according to Cain there is nothing good going on. If I do post good things, then it's "self-aggrandizing crappola." Why, I can't at all see why I might be reluctant to engage in these discussions!

Jason H.

In my experience, gamers tend to live on the tails of any normal distribution. You say anything, and they'll tell you the less than 1% exception. If I say I cannot find anyone who wants to play a matrix based Shadowrun game, I'll receive a hundred plus posts of exceptions. I have no idea why this is. It really grates on my nerves. I hate this behavior more than rules lawyering, which Firefox tells me isn't a real word.

So I totally understand.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. And remember, according to GI JOE, knowing is half the battle. I wonder if these threads are filled with closet GI JOE fans, who have this PSA message going over and over in their heads. They must know:) So blame GI JOE!

[JM Hardy]

Jason, be fair. That's not posting good things about CGL, that's posting ad copy that I couldn't read with a straight face.

Interesting combination of first sentence and second sentence. Why is it that your opinion of it is the only one that counts as "fair"?

Jason H.

[Ancient History]

Because of the two of us, I'm the one that hasn't tried posting bad ad copy and pass it off as saying good things about a company.

[DireRadiant]

There are many strong views and varying opinions in this matter, I ask you all to please do your best to avoid antagonizing each other as you share and discuss them.

[JM Hardy]

Because of the two of us, I'm the one that hasn't tried posting bad ad copy and pass it off as saying good things about a company.

Oh. So it's fair because you're opinion is the only possible correct one. All right then. Good to know.

EDIT: I'm getting dragged into something I have no desire to be involved in. I'm redacting that and stopping now. My apologies to everyone out there.

Jason H.

[Dread Moores]

Can't really argue with you there, I suppose. Everyone involved seems to agree that there is, in fact, a container filled with SR4A LEs somewhere in the customs system. You're automatic assumption elsewhere that it's a tax lien against Loren L Coleman is the sheerest of speculation.

I have no idea what the reason is for things held in customs, but I did want to point out, this is not the first time this has happened for CGL. I believe it was StratOps (maybe TacOps) that ran into a similar customs hold up on the BT side. Considering that was quite a while back, I'd hazard a guess to say that had nothing to do with a tax lien. No idea what the cause is, just throwing another possibility out there.

[Dread Moores]

Jason, be fair. That's not posting good things about CGL, that's posting ad copy that I couldn't read with a straight face.

I had no problem reading it with a straight face. Considering some of the opinions you've put out there towards Jason specifically, I'd maybe submit that you're not exactly reading it with an unskewed viewpoint?

But, yes, the piece really has nothing to do with the current situation. Cain did seem to ask for the good side of Catalyst though, and that piece did seem to address what Jason felt were some good reasons to be involved with SR. It might not be what some wanted, but it did fit the request, even if it was simply a puff piece. I'd imagine puff pieces are part of the job as a line developer, falling under pimping your product.

Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one.

No, we're not. You might, as well as others might. Some of us will, some of us won't, and some of us will feel that one has nothing to do with the other. Please don't speak as if you are the voice of the entire community Cain. No one of us here is. I'd submit it is best to keep opinions clearly labeled as personal, rather than communal.

One thing I am curious about to the fans (freelancers/former employees as well, considering I'd think they qualify as fans). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Let's say everything proceeds ahead with CGL retaining the license. Let's say the freelancers are paid what they are owed. Whatever issues the CGL owners have to work out amongst themselves, and in terms of procedures for financial management, they're handled behind closed doors (where I feel they should be, but that's only my own opinions on the matter). If all these things happen, does this change anything for you in the future as a fan? Does it change your willingness to purchase product from CGL at all? If you've received the books you pay for and the people owed money are paid, does it make a difference for you? That's not meant as a loaded question, but simple curiosity.

To answer my own question: No, I'd likely still be buying CGL product (I currently still am, since new PDF rereleases have been hitting the Battleshop for BT and some more Leviathans material). I'd still be buying product, but I'd probably offer some cautionary advice to anyone I knew who had desires to get involved as a freelancer (myself included).

[tete]

Ugg. I hope they don't go totally PDF..

The idea (and supposedly they are getting close) is that you as a consumer wont notice. Your FLGS will be able to order direct from the POD store so the only thing you may notice is the logo of the POD shop if anything. For PDF customers we will be able to include a POD copy on our PDF purchase and have it arrive at our door a few days later. This is also good for FLGS as if all you want is a hard copy it should still be the cheapest way to go. They may however loose some people who already buy PDFs from convince of clicking a box but those customers probably already go to Amazon. The only people I see getting screwed "If" they can pull it off is wholesalers like Alliance. Again I don't know if they met this goal just that they plan to start closing down the print shop this year (slowly).

[Mongoose]

Truth told, what Jason said in his essay is pretty much exactly what you'd hear from your better-than-normally informed game store sales person when asked "what's good about Shadowrun". It nicely highlighted both the strong legacy behind Shaodwrun, and the upsides of recent publications. Sure, that's typical for ad copy- and so what?

I agree- what's good about Shadowun isn't the same as what's good about Catalyst. But its really not ANY LD's place to comment on the strengths (or weaknesses) of their publishing company, as those are largely outside their control, and may well be confidential.

[eidolon]

I just wonder what my chances of seeing the LE copy of the 25th anny copy I was already charge for are. Will I ever see my large chunk of change (for a book, anyway) again if they're not allowed to make and sell me the book?

And yeah. I'll pose for the cover. Sure.

[JM Hardy]

I just wonder what my chances of seeing the LE copy of the 25th anny copy I was already charge for are. Will I ever see my large chunk of change (for a book, anyway) again if they're not allowed to make and sell me the book?

And yeah. I'll pose for the cover. Sure.

There are no restrictions on the selling of the LE. As soon as they arrive in our hands, we'll be sending them out. We should have more definitive information soon--this week, from what I have heard.

Jason H.

[otakusensei]

I would have liked to hear something about how CGL is working to fix the current situation. Perhaps an estimated timeline for the release of new material or a percentage of completion of it. I want to know about the bones of the company, the feeling from day to day and hopefully get some idea of what is going to happen. At this point if CGL goes away there are going to be a lot of "I told you so!"s but even more people just pissed off and disappointed that things were dragged out as long as they were. If CGL rights itself but takes months to start getting new product and reprints into the channel there's just going to more months (maybe a year?) of doom and gloom and questions of whether or not the "new crew" is up to the task. It's a shitty situation to be in, both for customers and people working at CGL, and I know most of us just want what is best for the game and justice. In that order more than likely.

There is this magical situation where CGL right itself and starts cranking out books on a regular basis but I ruled that out as total fantasy. If there is any evidence to the contrary please correct me.

We all know the currently published material is great, many of us own it. I'm glad Seattle 2072 is getting recognized, it deserves it. The communications from CGL have been very measured, which I can understand. But as a consumer I balk at the sales pitch. This is Dumpshock after all. If I wasn't a rabid fan I don't think I'd be following thread #5 of this business trolling for new info.

Edit: Also knowing where my LE is would be great. Thank you Jason, and I look forward to your update.

[Method]

Jason already commented on the current state of the line in Tread #2. Link

[JM Hardy]

The thing is, even before this entire situation broke, we did not give out information about product timing until we had a street date for them. There are too many things that can delay a product as it moves forward, and past experience had shown that announcing a date and then not meeting it proved very frustrating to fans. Now, of course, the ideal would be announcing a date and then consistently hitting it, but as I said there are a lot of variables out there, and one inevitably jumps up and bites you in the butt.

The basic order of things is this: First, we are working to get already published or completed books back on sale. Checks have been sent out to help that process, but it's not enough to mail checks; we have to wait until they have cleared before we can move forward. In cases where more than just checks are needed, we're working to get the advice and knowledge we need to move forward with what we can.

Second (though in truth this is happening at the same time as the first thing), I'm working to get products that were on the verge of coming out, out. That means, in essentially this order, DotA 2, Corp Guide, Sixth World Almanac, Runner's Toolkit. That's where my efforts have been focused recently.

After that will come the books that have been drafted to some degree: War!, Attitude, the conclusion of Dawn of the Artifacts, and some new adventures. And then we venture into new territory.

As I have said before, I am working to get product out. That will continue to be the case until someone in an official capacity tells me I shouldn't do that anymore. Also, I only discussed my activities. Management is working on important activities such as paying freelancers, dealing with the license, finding personnel as needed, etc. etc. But again, there are details that, for many reasons (such as: they're confidential, there's legal stuff involved, we have policy against committing to dates before products are ready, and there's stuff I just plain don't know) won't come out in this forum.

Jason H.

[Dread Moores]

The idea (and supposedly they are getting close) is that you as a consumer wont notice. Your FLGS will be able to order direct from the POD store so the only thing you may notice is the logo of the POD shop if anything. For PDF customers we will be able to include a POD copy on our PDF purchase and have it arrive at our door a few days later. This is also good for FLGS as if all you want is a hard copy it should still be the cheapest way to go. They may however loose some people who already buy PDFs from convince of clicking a box but those customers probably already go to Amazon. The only people I see getting screwed "If" they can pull it off is wholesalers like Alliance. Again I don't know if they met this goal just that they plan to start closing down the print shop this year (slowly).

Hey, that's pretty interesting. I hadn't heard that's what Catalyst RED was leading to. Thanks for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have no local gaming shop anywhere near by to even think about taking advantage of that (hence why the BattleShop worked wonders for me), but it's still a pretty interesting path to take.

[Adam]

tete is speaking of OneBookShelf (DriveThruRPG/RPGNow) and their upcoming POD service, which is in the testing phases as certain freelance graphic designers prep books for different clients... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[eidolon]

Thanks, Jason. I've been away, so apologies if you had already answered that in one of the billions of posts made about this whole mess.

I will tell you folks that I just clicked "Place Order" a few minutes ago to make sure I'd get me a Seattle 2072 and a Vice. That means diddly squat in the grand scheme of the speculation, but I'm one to hedge these kinds of bets. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Octopiii]

I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.

I agree. The new Seattle book was extremely disappointing. Entire sections were simply lifted whole from previous Seattle sourcebooks. The same goes with some of the "setting" locations: Feral City's write up for Lagos leaned heavily on Cyberpirates!, for example. Continuity is nice, of course, but frankly the parts of the new books I liked were the ones that had already been written for previous editions. I haven't looked at Vice yet, but i'm told it was disappointing, which I can unfortunately see based on recent releases.

I like Catalyst for cleaning up the rules. I'm not so enthused by their other work, however.

[BlueMax]

Jason,
I had a long day. Where was "get more material to playtesters"? and "with plenty of time for feedback"?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
/me ducks
/me zags
/me zigs

BlueMax
/ bet you thought I would zig first

[MindandPen]

Well Jason, the numbers we've seen seem to indicate between $600,000 and $800,000 dollars.

To the average RPG buyer that seems pretty extreme. Now.. it's not on par with multibillion dollar firms or international banking embezzlements, but over half a million to almost a million dollars is a lot of coin.

I don't think acting like that term is strange is being 100% forthright. Even the low ball number is over half a million dollars. That's pretty extreme.

I think the issue is with the phrase "embezzlement". As has been mentioned elsewhere, that is a legal term with very specific set of criteria. While there is money not where it is supposed to be, how that is viewed, how it is rectified, and how things are adjusted going forward will, I think, play more into the mind of TOPPS than anything else.

Let me give a simple example. Assume you have a $1000, and you spend all of it on Shadowrun books instead of rent, car, food, utilities. The question is, did you embezzle the money, or did you spend it unwisely? When this is done by an individual, it is very simple, and the results are likewise very simple - you lose your place to live, your car, your lights, and are hungry. If you're married, your spouse is probably not very happy.

Now, move this to an LLC where the family checkbook is now a joint checkbook. Oh, and to make things fun, let's put one of the owners checkbook in with the company checkbook.

Unraveling that mess becomes a problem, and where that problem crosses the line from "serious problem between the owners" to "criminal activity" is the type of thing that keeps tax attorneys and the IRS busy.

Am I saying that Loren L. Coleman is a "good guy". NO. Given all the other issues; from the situation with Jennifer, the leaving of other employees related to his actions, the non-payment to freelancers, and all the other things he is reported as doing; he is, at least, a very bad business man and apparently ethically challenged.

Is that criminal? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know if it could be proven in a court of law.

Is it enough to kill the SR license?

I don't know, it has been indicated that:

1. Procedures are in place to ensure this does not happen again
2. Loren is paying back the money

The question is, does TOPPS believe it is better/cheaper/more profitable to fix the CGL situation or start with a new license holder. That is an answer that ONLY TOPPS can give, anything else is a wild-ass guess.

For me, I'll wait and see. If good product comes out I'll buy it. If bad product comes out, I won't. Ultimately, the fan base will decide the fate of CGL and Shadowrun with their pocketbooks, not Loren's.

-M&P

[Pepsi Jedi]

I agree. The new Seattle book was extremely disappointing. Entire sections were simply lifted whole from previous Seattle sourcebooks. The same goes with some of the "setting" locations: Feral City's write up for Lagos leaned heavily on Cyberpirates!, for example. Continuity is nice, of course, but frankly the parts of the new books I liked were the ones that had already been written for previous editions. I haven't looked at Vice yet, but i'm told it was disappointing, which I can unfortunately see based on recent releases.

I like Catalyst for cleaning up the rules. I'm not so enthused by their other work, however.

Really? I'd heard that Seattle 2072 was amazing. You're saying alot of it is Cut and pasted? Hurm.....