New Thread. Enjoy. Concentrate on the topic, CGL Speculation, and not each other and it will be smoother.

CGL speculation #1 pg. 1-28
CGL speculation #2 pg. 1-10
CGL speculation #3 pg.1-50
CGL Sspecularion #4

Well, we just seem to breeze through these threads right now for some reason.
So, anybody wanna tell me wether or not my FLGS selling Running Wild, Vice and Feral Cities in english and german could be considered problematic?

Just so we're clear, the last thread was closed because it was pretty well becoming a war. Patience is growing thin as the mods are having to spend way too much time on patrol rather than sun bathing.

Stahlseele - The Cease and Desist of sales and distribution are still in effect on Running Wild and Vice. I am not familiar with a C&D for Feral Cities, so it should be in the clear. (This is presuming I was CC'd on relevant communications.)

I expect to have updates on which books have been released on Monday, April 12th and will do my best to update everyone as I can.

Except for Fisty. He's a vampire. And the only time he sparkles in the sun is when he explodes into dust.

So, to recap the thread so far:

Lone STar Cops riding Cybord Unicorns.
Tiger Eyes' belly button ring.
2010 Dumpshock Lingerie and/or Swimsuit Calender.

Oh, and some pointless bickering, rumor mongering, and accusations. I'm hoping they'll go away and we can just talk about more of teh silly stuff for a while.

Bull

Those are the most interesting points !

Basically my Question is:
Those Books have been sold by CGL TO THE SHOPS allready correct?
So right now, those Books are the Property OF THE SHOPS, not of CGL.
Thus the C&D to CGL does not work on the Shops, because CGL is not selling them anymore.
CGL allready got the money for those Books. They don't see any money anymore if the Shops sell them right?

Catalyst sells books to distributors, which sell them to retailers, which sell them to customers.

Catalyst gets their money when they sell the book to distributors (Well, a number of days/months later, depending on which distributor ... they get paid sooner for hobby sales and later for book chain sales) and doesn't receive any additional money when a retailer sells it.

Thus my question of how the C&D affects my FLGS for example.

The Saga goes on.
Seriously, this subject has easily surpassed number of posts of the "Horros" thread weeks ago.

Thread Recap: we were in the midst of discussing the meaning of Truth. Specifically whether things that are true remain true after they are no longer directly perceived, or whether they . This again, mysteriously revolved around Cain, despite the fact that I think he had stuff to do and missed the entire previous thread. At issue this time was not his partisan declaration in favor of determinism against free will, but rather his claim of observational persistence. That is the idea that once someone says something that forever afterwards they will have said that thing. Taking the reverse position was LurkerOutThere, who posited that an event was only true while it happened and thereafter was epistemologically uncertain - if not outright false.

Cain's core claim in this arena is that once Jennifer Harding had said that she had been pressured to falsify financial records for Catalyst Game Labs and quit rather than do that, that in further discussions one could refer to the fact that she had made that claim as itself being a true fact. Not so, posited LurkerOutThere, who self described himself as lambasting Cain for his epistemological presumption! Indeed, he derided, with those statements by Jennifer Harding not being made now (as in literally not being said, not that she had retracted any of them), claiming that she had said them in the first place was putting words into her mouth at best.

At issue of course is the persistence of fact. In 2007, Loren Coleman contracted for a mansion to be built for him and his family in Washington, using money that was not his. In 2008, it was finished and he moved into it. In 2009, the building got a final inspection, and if I am reading documents correctly, a new assessed value based on post-crash real estate prices (thereby reducing the property taxes owed to being in line with a house in the $650,000 range rather than the million dollar range). But none of those events happened in 2010, meaning that to believe in those events we have to trust both in the continuity of experience and in the reliability of memory. Even now, as I am writing this synopsis, I am merely remembering those numbers and dates - I am not literally perceiving those actions right now as I type. And is memory not unlike a dream? Who is to say that any reference to past events, even ones as chronologically ordered and immutably typed a corporate records or forum posts on locked threads are not mere hallucinations?

For this thread, we will be talking about the Problem of Induction and the Incorrigibility of Motive. We touched upon it a little bit in the last thread, where I had assembled the data points that Loren Coleman had failed to pay Posthuman Studios royalty money and that Posthuman Studios was splitting from Catalyst. I made the assumption that the two were causally linked, and I made the assumption that Posthuman was leaving Catalyst because of the non-payment of Royalties. Rob Boyle and Adam Jury both corrected this assertion, and pointed out that they have other reasons for leaving Loren Coleman's company (boy do they!) and that the two data points are not causally linked, at least in that direction. This underlines a core difficulty with judging human motivation, and with predicting events in general. Even if you see that a person always does a specific action after a specific stimulus, that does not mean that the stimulus necessarily causes that response. There could be any number of coincidental causes. Such it is that though WildFire and Posthuman Studios are both leaving for other publishers, and both have had nonpayment of Royalty issues, that as it happens the nonpayment was the cause of WildFire's departure and not the cause of Posthuman's.

For our set piece on the Problem of Induction, we will be discussing Ketjak's (one of the owners of IMR/ Catalyst) discussion of the rate of draws from the IMR accounts by Loren Coleman, and discussing whether they correspond to a pattern of embezzlement, or merely a series of random embezzlements whose seemingly regular time frame were generated by chance alone.

-Frank

This is a topic for a copyright lawyer.

Gah, i'd rather not involve one of THOSE things x.x . .

They aren't so bad once you get to know them. Mine is a gamer.

What, Lawyers? Or particularly copyright lawyers?

Either way, too late. At least two copyright lawyers have already been consulted. Although as I understand the purpose of this thread is to discuss the Problem of Induction, we can now speculate as to whether the fact that they have been consulted means that they are involved or not right now, or will be in the future. That's a sticky question, since as I understand it, all the Colemans have to do is just stop talking to said Lawyers and they retroactively become uninvolved since the last consultation. While if they talk to them again in the future, then the Lawyers in question become involved for the entire period between the two consults.

This is because while we think of Lawyer involvement as being a continuous thing over a crisis, it is actually composed of a finite series of discreet events.

-Frank

Yes, but since those finite events cover recent history and foreseeable future, and should normally have overlap, we could say it covers an arc. Does that make the use of lawyers actually circular or simply a thousand sided polyhedron?

..swimsuit calendar? Y'know that actually sounds pretty wiz..

Not with the folks they want posing in it

Remember #3, Data. It's Commander Riker's choice!

This is a pretty interesting tactic. Keep cutting the threads when the real discussion gets half way, starting a new thread, and then having Bull post off topic things that derail any new discussion.

Now you've got me curious: who?

I try. I hate wading through combative, argumentative posts hoping to read something useful, for one. And for two, I prefer fun discussions of things like how to do up a Totem/Mentor Spirit for a Cartoon Shaman or creating the Spider-Man Physad, or at least helping new GMs or players learn the rules, than I do discussing and arguing minor nuances of the rules, or weird misinterpretations of the rules based on how you read a phrase.

It's a game. It's fun. THis is an extension of that game. It should be fun.

Lately, a lot of this talk? Very much not fun.

And further discussion and crying doom and gloom? Very, very not fun.

Bull

Trust me you don't wanna know, there's not enough eye bleach in the world to remove the mental images.

Well the "Bull in a thong" topic from last time I think is what killed it

I think Bull, Adam, and Eidolon are being thought of as the cover models.

Is it perhaps a novel idea to have people who work or have worked on the site directly to only post on-topic material?

If you don't have anything on-topic to say, you could refrain from saying anything at all. Or you could go post on any other thread.

It undermines morale for people who have access or have had access to mod post coloring to flagrantly be posting off-topic materials with the expressed intent of sending threads into off-topic death spirals.

-Frank

*snrk* thats beautiful.

My sense of humour may or may not be terribly warped though.


Serious question now:
Which books that are already released are being affected by this? I kinda dropped out with all the yelling and fist shaking at each other going on.

(Shadowrun players? Suspicious of something a corporation says? Imagine that! A corporation wanting people to stop airing dirty laundry and making a bad situation worse? Shocking! repeat ad nauseum )

I wouldn't call an internet fistfight progress in a discussion.

I've spent the last couple hours reading through these threads (yeah, I am grateful to have a job that I can occasionally spend some unproductive work time reading on the internet). Its a lot to take in, but interesting nonetheless.

I'm glad I got a copy of the 25th Anniversary Edition before any of this happened. Since I don't really follow or care about the metaplot in the SR Universe, I feel I got the best thing that SR4 had to offer. I had purchased some other books, but they are rarely used at the table, but I do hope the writers get paid for the work they put in...to me, that is really the only tragedy here.

Poor business practices, embezzling money, employee turnover...it happens. SR is viable, so someone will pick it up, get new faces on board and produce something that most will complain about, but will still buy!

I do have to admit that I find it humorous that a side story in the show Breaking Bad is following a similar path. Doubly so since I think it's a pretty cool show that demonstrates how one could get forced into the shadows, or run them out of necessity rather than desire.

Well, I never thought Bull would come out and make a point of saying I was right.

Look, something bad happened that directly touches our community. A bunch of people talking about it via text on a visual bbs on the web isn't going to damage or hurt anything. Thinking that you need to somehow stifle that discussion and inject it with bullshit is down right insulting.

You've always had a God complex Bull, but this shit actually matters (especially since we heard about it here first).

I really ought to be flattered.

I got a thread locked, or at least contributed to a thread getting locked over lunch and a summation by Frank.

My issue is now as it has been Trollman making a bunch of unsourced and uncited claims, some of which seem quite fantastic, some of which are quite reasonable and indeed believable. All of which are colored by his own end goal which is basically the downfall of CGL for the stated purpose of getting the license moved to a new holder. Regardless of a lack of credibility of his statements in my eyes many of them have been corroborated with testimonial or anecdotal evidence. However he continues to make statements he can't or won't source and cite. I've brought this up, i'm not going to belabor it any further. Suffice to say that Frank makes some dire allegations, the company says something different, the truth as they say is somewhere in the middle. Both sides are biased by their end goals, the difference is the company might be liable if their wrong, Frank not so much. That in a nutshell. That plus Frank's flair for the dramatic and dire predictions: Jennifer Harding left the company for ethical reasons BECOMES (paraphrased and dramatized) The only person who could stop Loren's reign of terror was FORCED out of the company.

Now here is the facts as I see them regarding my differences with Cain: Cain set up a pattern of making insutations, twisting meaning out of statements that was never intended and then attributing it as a stated fact and repeating his own originally admitted guesses later as rumors he had heard. After repeated iterations of this I started to call him and others on their hysterics. Repeated argument becomes true by default sort of thing. In any case my greatest failure was when he was actually spot on about something Jennifer had said and I assumed that it was another "embellished" item. For that I am truly sorry, my own credibility was hurt by this mistake clearly. So so far as it goes if i jumped on Cain when I was wrong to do so yea I'm sorry for that. Having said that there were several times when he was well and truly off the rails.

Finally there's Ancient History: To you I am very sorry, You have every reason to be upset, you have every right to withhold your talent and hope they could be sold elsewhere even if it means the company crashes and burns, a standpoint that I find kharmicly questionable. So far as my lazy/bad english, yea not really sorry there. I'm an unabashed work poster so unless I'm working on something like a PBP I've got about four things going at once any given time in edition to my own dubious relationship with the English language.

In final assessment in my particular sprawl the sun is shining and it's appraching a pleasant Friday night, so i will say sincere apologies to those I have offended but now I need to re-prioritize.

Yes, because the doom and gloom and accusations and threats and all that other fun stuff that's littered the 2000+ posts of the last 4 versions of this thread are doing wonders for morale, both of Dumpshock in general and the online fanbase. Right.

But you're right. It is entirely on topic, so lets bring it back on topic. So...

CGL Swimsuit Calender. The proceeds can help get the freelancers paid faster.

Jason Hardy for Miss May. Other suggestions?



From Jason Hardy's post a couple threads back: Vice, Dusk, Midnight, Seattle 2072, and Running Wild.

However, this was before payments went out this week. I know that authors for two of those books have received payment (I don't know that they've vounteered that information, so I'll let them speak for themselves if they wish), but I don't know if that frees up the books or if there are others still waiting to be paid. Hopefully we can get an updated list soon.

Bull

Gracias, Bull. I'm a collector and while Dusk and Midnight don't bother me.. I didn't know about Seattle 2072 being on that list, I've been trying to secure copies of things I might not be able to get later.

All I have to say in response to posts like this one is this and this. Though a bit of this and this probably has a lot to do with it. Particularly the latter.

I got paid and released my hold on Running Wild, for what it's worth. I was not, however, the only person with a hold on that book, and I can speak for no one else in this matter.

As far as I'm concerned, however, RW is free and clear.

Now now, I don't have a God Complex.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have virgins in togas waiting to feed me grapes and fan me with reeds. After which, ritual sacrifice!

(And honestly, you want insulting? About 75% of the previous threads have been downright insulting to anyone working on, who has worked on, or is still trying to work on Shadowrun material. And the pointless arguing and bickering has damaged Dumpshock's rep pretty badly. I'm getting a lot of people email and questions and comments about this place being unfriendly and outright hostile from folks that don't normally hang out on these boards, because there's a lot of external links pointing here, and they're pointing to these threads. WHich are a big ball of useless hate, bile, vitriol, and useless shit. ANd that's before anyone else tried to derail them any.)

And judging by your 6 posts and your join date and your "God Complex" comment, you must be one of Frank's little buddies from his little board. We always get such quality posts from you guys.

Bull

"Dumpshock Swimsuit Calendar", "Cop Riding A Unicorn" and "Jen's Bellybutton" are becoming some of my lease favorite topics. Not for the least of reasons because I cringe to think of a community like Dumpshock focused on any point of my personal anatomy. That must be hell.

Let's be quietly honest with ourselves. You don't have to like the topic you're posting in, this topic, but derailing it for any reason is still derailing it. Someone open one or more separate threads for the above mentioned topics and please allow this one to carry on. You don't have to like where it's going but if it stays in the ToS it doesn't matter.

Let's get some reasonable discussion up in here with everyone keeping their anatomy in their clothing moving forward. We aren't all adults, but we all know how to act like them.

If it means anything to ya Bull, I still really hope I get to work for CGL as an artist, and that things will sort themselves out.

I call a summa cum laude one friend. Scary performance... model marriage with a caring and intelligent gaming wife, loving father of two children, designs board games in his free time. Happy to know them.

Agreed. But so long as I'm keeping my replies directed at Shadowrun and Dumpshock, I'm also not breaking the ToS. You don't have to like where it's going either, but as you say. If it stays in the ToS, it doesn't matter.



*snrk* That's amusing. For any number of reasons.

However, if you guys want to have a "Serious, adult discussion", feel free. I have better things to do with my time anyways. But honestly, there's only like 20 useful, relevant threads in the last 2000. Everything else is just sound and fury.

Bull

What if I like sound and fury?


Honestly though, I see your point. It's just that I've already sunk a ton of time into this thread(s) and I'm waiting for important post #21.

I'm a bit riled up today for some reason, so my apologies. I shouldn't be deliberately provoking the natives anwyay. I'm out for the rest of the day, as I have board games tonight and a Descent campaign we're starting tomorrow.

Bull

No personal attacks.

Terms of Service

Ok, i guess we will have the next thread in less than one page at this rate.

Um, well, it's about a game. If you want threads that are not sound and fury you should probably not spend your time on gaming boards.

Okay, vaguely on topic for those still interested in these things: I received a check from CGL for Vice a couple days ago. Now, at the time I had terminated my contracts with CGL, payment for Vice was due a few days later (30 days net print contract). So I was well within my rights to just shred the check and then CGL wouldn't be able to sell any more copies of Vice. I strongly considered doing just that. For one, there was the serious possibility that the check would bounce. None of the checks CGL have sent me personally have bounced, but I know some people whose checks have bounced. Two, there's the serious possibility that if CGL declares or is forced into bankruptcy, the funds might be taken back. Finally, the check also included a partial payment for another, incomplete project none of y'all are familiar with - that would probably have been grounds enough to return the check in error.

Instead, I just cashed the damn thing.

Vice is already out there. The 'damage' so to speak is done, in that books have already been sold. The terms of the contract were technically violated by the late payment, but t'be honest I've waited longer for smaller payments on other projects. It would have been a dick move on my part to deny the payment just to keep Vice off the shelves...and I could use the dosh. So, when/if CGL burns to the ground, I might have to pay it back. I'll not touch it for a couple weeks. Until/if then, <shrug>.

LurkerOutThere: You were wrong. You got called on it. Repeatedly. Man up, stop trying to cover your ass, knock it off, and don't do it again.

So now you're upset about actually getting paid, too?

The mind boggles.

"Rawr, you guys aren't paying me, fuck you!" <days later, gets paid> "You guys paid me. Uh. Rawr! Fuck you!"

I faced a realistic decision about the ethical and legal consequences of accepting payment, yeah.

Meh. Nothing in any of the five versions of this thread to date have really bothered me or insulted any of the work I did on Shadowrun. I've faced far worse in book reviews on Dumpshock!

I've always considered myself ready to defend anything I've ever worked on for Shadowrun or else I wouldn't come to these forums. It's not like anyone forces me to. Besides, whether I agree or disagree with someone's posts in this thread (and there are lots I disagree with), the simple fact that people are getting so fired up about this stuff means that they care a great deal about the work I and others have done on the game. If all this were going on and no one posted anything, now that would be a bit more insulting!

If that contract was indeed terminated by you, then, technically, there is no contract anymore. Both parties would need to establish a new one… and the real question is if CGL sending you a check and you cashing it in implicitly constitutes one.