I don't know if you're referencing a post that I started and revised a few back, but I was asking if that graph represents ALL payments/draws to LLC, or draws OVER whatever his 'salary' or 'share' is supposed to be for the company. I don't know, and I'd like to know.

Assuming for a moment that the chart represents ALL payments to LLC over the indicated period, that would mean it includes valid paychecks or his take as an owner of the company. Up until mid-2007, the graph would seem to indicate someone who is being paid about $200,000 over the roughly 5 years shown in the graph, or about $40,000 a year. Depending on what contracts or provisions were in place, it would be possible for $200,000 to be conservative and the actual money that was legally his being in the $300,000 to $400,000 range. Which would also explain why the lower graph seems to highlight the questionable funds as being in the $300,000 range. But ALL of that is based on the premise that the graph represents ALL payments/transactions (valid AND invalid) made to LLC during that time span.

It's possible that chart represents only invalid transactions.

My ultimate point is that it's not clear. While it's a nicely done chart, I'm not clear on exactly what it represents. I'd be glad to have someone clarify it.

The closest thing they'd be likely to do in that regard would be if the amount owed was paid down to a level where having LLC give up his ownership stake in IMR/CGL would cover the rest.

So you understand then why I take any of his claims with a big mound of salt?

And yet they were pretty close, considering he was working with 2nd hand information, I think he deserves a pat on the back, not scorn.

But then, he has played the traditional role of the messanger bearing ill news well. He presented what he had, and was promptly lynched/burned/shot/buried. Way to play to the averages.

Yep, I got the same thing. Their registration system is broken. Could someone who is registered there ask if the chart represents ALL payments or draws to LLC (including any salary or other 'valid' payments), or if it represents only money taken beyond his normal salary?

Feel free to attribute the question to me if you want.

Also, if someone is allready registered there: tell them their registration system sucks and they should fix it ._.

There's a reason he apparently keeps getting banned in various forums, and it's not because of the times when he gives verifiable facts. It's the same reason that some people are not quite willing to pat him on the back.

He's far from being someone without an agenda and wearing a white hat in all of this, and so it Catalyst. The people who are leaking the information are doing so because they know his reputation, and they know he'll put it out there.

He's used statements by Jennifer to claim that RNB was directly involved in falsifying information. A claim that Jennifer herself refutes.

He's made some amusing assertions, such as the claim that the US revolution happened because England wasn't paying the colonies their freelancer fees.

When bringing possibly questionable information to public debate he feels justified by his own personal beliefs about right and wrong. At the same time Frank's ridiculed Randall for his statements about following his own personal beliefs about right and wrong in seeking a resolution to the missing funds.

And all in the name of blowing open a scandal that the the local paper in CGL's neck of the woods would maybe devote a paragraph mention to at most.

If that is a legal (if immoral) option, I wonder if that's what corporate executives are doing when they get a drastic pay raise or a golden parachute. It's hard for me to see CGL survive unless it either ties up even more of its resources by kicking out Coleman (does it even exist without him) and going through the year+ long legal process of squeezing him, or doing immoral 'tricks' while keeping Coleman in charge (correct me if I'm wrong on that assessment). Out of those two cases, I don't see why Topps would want CGL to have the license since they're either extremely hurting for money or its still run by someone who 'co-mingled' nearly a million dollars.

When it comes to actual facts, I largely trust Frank to be honest and even accurate, and he explains his conclusions from those facts in a fairly logical fashion. He's already explained his own motivation, and it's not one of pettiness or spite; and I only question a stated motivation for Truth when the revelation/accusation is obviously false. Maybe this is me projecting my love of Transmetropolitan.

I may not always agree with him, as he, like many med students I've met, seem to have complexes about being questioned on their veracity. But I will give him credit for generally being right, if a bit of a prick about it usually. People just need to learn to deal with people like that. Remember, when dealing with an asshole, make sure they aren't doing the same.

I hate this misconception. As an citizen of the USA I have the freedom of speech, meaning that my government can not prosecute me for things that I say(yes that's an oversimplification but it should suit for this purpose). As a poster on any given messageboard service, such as Dumpshock here, that may or may not be hosted in the USA, I have no such right, period. The moderators may in the generosity give me any degree of leeway they so choose, but they are not bound by the Constitution of the USA to grant me my freedom of speech on this messageboard.

Graywulfe

We don't know how he calculated his figures, but we know that the fiscal and legal assertions he made are demonstrably false. Frank presented an ironclad set of outcomes/consequences; however, he's been shown woefully inaccurate re: the law (trifecta of error: criminal, civil and bankruptcy minsunderstandings) and accounting (see MindandPen's well-informed post). This calls into question the other bold-faced assertions he made.

There are clearly problems at Catalyst and it may end badly for the owners and freelancers. Ketjak's confirmed that; Jason's confirmed that; Catalyt's twitter feed confirms it. Given that we've got real people making credible statements, why do we even care what Frank has to say anymore?

All that said, bear in mind that his derisive comments re: individuals' religious convictions were the biggest (recent) factors in the ban, not any baiting of flaming from skeptics.

I'm not arguing with his deserving of a ban or not. That's not my place to judge and he clearly violated ToS repeatedly.

Um, no the ban was because he replied to a comment about how "you won't remember me from blah" with something that showed he did remember him and had felt the posters "wall of text" arguments made him despair about ever finding intelligent life on that site.

I said "biggest," not "only." His cheap shots re: Randall's religious motivations, in more than one post to more than one thread, weren't good for his account standing.

Honestly, this forum is sort of CGL's neck of the woods. And I would say that the story is pretty major. To use your local metaphor, it's the mayor running away with most of the taxes and his second in charge covering him while half of city hall quits over the mess. That would make for some hard core journalism in my neck of the woods.

Yeah, he's a jerk about that kind of stuff.

$700,000 is still $700,000.

That's a lot of money.

Down playing it or acting like the difference of $100,000 either way invalidates the fact the fraker walked out with well over half a million bucks obfuscates the issue....

That he walked out with over half a million Dollars.

There's still the question of how much of that 700,000 was actually money that he was entitled to. Is this what "co-mingling" of funds meant?

Don't confuse anyone with wild speculations...

Reading the CBT-Forums, Frank personally stole the money to blame Mr. Coleman, destroy CGL and reach total world domination...

Um, no. He got banned for yet another in an unending string of TOS violations. So let it lie and stop trolling for an argument about it.

In a world where a single bank departmwent can lose around $6.500.000.000 and nobody's heads roll over this? No. It is peanuts.

Also, the issue remains whether he actually had a contract with CGL over a salary (you know, for the full-time job with the company). IF he did, one may wonder whether these charts show his total takings or what he took minus what he was allowed to. Whether the charts only show what the folks at CGL know him stealing (how?) or whether it is any money Mr. Coleman ever took, including money the company owed him by contract, is an unknown. Hence, saying he took any given sum illegally is not substantiable.

IF he indeed would have a due on some 350K over the alleged time, then we'd only be looking at a $300K that vanished. That's still theft, but it's a sum one could maybe even get back from him in the mid-term forseeable future.

I am not saying this is the case. I am saying it may be. we do not know.

This is where Frank's facts turn out indeed to be ... tainted by his view of things and the chip on his shoulder with CGL. The man is no saint. Neither is he a demon. It'd be best we treat him as what he is - an unreliable, but nonetheless interesting source on this. Whatever he wrote should not be taken as absolute truth, but neither be outright dismissed. We ought to look at it in context with other info from non-Frank sources before making any judgement.

And right now, we lack enough additional information to even make a truly educated guess.

graywulfe is correct. In the context of the United States Constitution "Freedom of Speech" is meant to protect political speech in the public forum. Neither of those conditions apply on DS because a.) its not public and b.) political speech is expressly prohibited in the TOS.

(Now, some of the older mods can correct me if I'm wrong, but:)

Having said that, I will note that the default posture of the moderators is that we do not censor people (unless they are posting something illegal or horribly offensive; you will note that everything Frank has posted is still up and readily visible to anyone that cares to look), and we don't issue warnings unless the TOS are violated. Even then, there is great debate before any action is taken. Nothing is done unilaterally and almost nothing is done unanimously. The fact is that all most of us really care about is having a place to discuss our favorite game that isn't crawling with a-holes (and I direct that at no one in particular). Thats what the TOS are for. Within that framework, people can do whatever they want.

And certain mods pay for it all out of pocket. I'd say thats pretty generous.

I did not post it as a misconception. I know very well that I post here at the leisure of the Dumpshock administration.

My point is that no one, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON has a right to NOT BE OFFENDED.

Unfortunately, many people who attack the messenger act as though they have the right to not be ofended. That was what I was driving at.

No.. Don't do that. Don't compare a rpg company and one man stealing over half a million dollars to banks that deal with billions every day. Again that's trying to hide what it was.

The Median yearly income in the US is $26,036. Don't sit there and call it peanuts. Almost twenty eight TIMES the average yearly salary of a US person is not peanuts.

It's crap like this that pisses people off.

"Oh compared to those that lost billions. It's peanuts"

Yeah but here in the real world, with people involved he stole almost 28 times the yearly salary of working people. Look at the charts. Notice anything about the money stolen? How it ramps up so? How in the first 4 years it barely hit $200,000 then in the past year it's up to $726,000?

Don't sit there and call it peanuts or act like it's his salary. It's horrendous theft. They didn't give him a $500,000 raise. A HALF a million dollars in a year. Don't act like that's nothing. That's insulting to people out there buying their product.

Also it would seem that the management had the habit of withdrawing monies to pay freelancers and other contractors. How much of the monies went to paying someone, how much went into his pockets. Only a thorough audit of his records can reveal this. I doubt that Trollman has access to this.

Not to throw oil on the fire, but consider that one draw of $30k. That's more than the median yearly income PJ gave above, and it was cash. I honestly cannot think of a legitimate reason Loren L. Coleman would need to draw that single amount of cash at one point in time for business purposes. Can you?

By "CGL's neck of the woods" I meant their literal location. Whatever Seattle's local paper is, I can't imagine it getting more than a brief mention.

Of course here it's all the rage, and it's life-changing to the group of employees and owners who are impacted.

But on the scale of what whistle-blowing is usually associated with, it's hardly anything.

Because people running RPG production companies are not eligible for salaries? BEsides, it would be useful to actually read what you'Re replying to.


Mind publishing your source for these numbers?


I don't, but I neither make a drama out it, like you seem intent to.

No. And nobody ever said he did not embezzle money. Just, the total sum that vanished, and hence, how it will affect CGL as a company, are unclear and up for discussion; as much as how much can realistically be claimed back from Loren L. Coleman. 850K are far beyond that sum; 300K maybe not so far.


The Intelligencer or the Seattle Times?

Should we go ahead and speculate why he withdrew that money?

I mean, how does the owners get paid? Is it a percentage? Is there some P&L somewhere that tells us what the bottom line is before going to owners and taxes?

I know that this is the Great Thread of Speculation, so lets all go ahead and do it. But our assumptions and predictions do say a little bit about ourselves, just saying.

Salary? Yes. Spending 200K over a 4 year stretch then a raise of $500,000.... a half a million dollars in one year? no. Don't be absurd.



Look at the charts. It took 4 years for his draws to hit $200,000. Then in the past year has hit over $700,000



Make a drama out of it?

You mean... a guy stealin' 700k isn't dramatic enough on it's own? When the company can't pay out a few grand to it's writers due to lack of funds.. and ONE owner has walked with over 700K.... that's not dramatic?

Again, you're acting like ti's no big deal... par for the course.... no biggie....

Which is misleading.

Allright. My guess would be it is his tax-free salary. Using cash at some point to break traceability of money is the most important step in money laundering after all. I don't know which is the next tax haven to Seattle. Where I live, I would then expect him to make a nice visit to Switzerland, camouflaging himself in a dime-a-dozen car among the early morning rush hour up the A1, but I don't know if the US has such a convenient tax haven close to Seattle. Probably not?

But the money may have gone into a million other venues, too. A couple of them are: payment to freelancers, payment to "freelancers" (both done on the sly as to avoid the taxman), a short-term holiday to somewhere sunny by the sea and/or light on drug laws (again, where I live, I'd say Netherlands), visiting whatever is the class brothel in the Seattle metro area and betting on horses.

And, America being America, Vegas.


It might be a loan, or a series of loans. Of course, whether he ever intended to pay said loan back is debatable. It's his company in part, though. To a degree, he can do whatever he wants with it. It's not like he is a regular employee and employee laws apply to owners, as you seem to think.

It may also be he withdrew less than what he was due for the sake of the company for a few years to help it get on it'S feet and then, intending to build himself a cool house in the middle of nowhere, he decided to take his full salary AND what he did effectively loan the ompany all in one year.

Not saying that is the case. But saying it may be. You don't know. I don't know. Frank doesn't either, and not even Jason does. The only people who may actally know this are the lawyers screening CGL's books, Jennifer possibly, and Mr L. Coleman himself.


The lack-of-funds disease is far wider spread in the RPG business and occurred a long, long time before CGL was ever founded. FASA was notorious there, too. Do you imply Mr L. Coleman stole from FASA too?


Considering it is doubtful that the auto company thatprovides spare parts, services and repairts for my car may not last very much longer, despite what GM wants you to believe, and considering that, unlike RPG books, I actually need my car, yes, it is no biggie to me. YMMV.

Total agreement from me.



Political speech is not the only speech that is protected under the US Constitution.

It is your sandbox and you get to set the rules, absolutely! My own opinion is that the Mods have given individuals a great deal of leeway on numerous occasions. More profound to me, they have even reversed themselves and publicly owned such decisions.



I have taken offense at posts. It is a right. How I respond though...that is the question.



Yes. I have gone to out of state auctions with large sums of cash in pocket. Certified checks don't work because you don't know what the final bid is going to be. Credit Cards don't work because the ones that I have cap out at $4,000 for a single transaction. Out of state checks are viewed with slightly less scorn then a bag of flaming dog poo, in such situations. That is just one example, I am sure that there are other legit reasons.

Just a funky side note, withdrawals over $3,000 normally require a meeting with a bank manager. Talk about some interesting questions.

At the current exchange rate, if you take a USD check to a Canadian bank, you receive slightly less CAD than USD.

As soon as the money is in the bank account it is duly noted for the IRS. Thinking that you are going to take the money out of the account as cash and suddenly the IRS won't tax it as income is not feasible. This is why the IRS pays such close attention to businesses that deal in small cash transactions. As long as that money is not put into a financial institution it remains an unknown.

Point. But that might explain the wonderously shrinking 100K of convention income.

"Meant" was the key word in that statement. What it means now is another subject, for another thread.

It is certainly not my sandbox.

There is a slight problem with that. The IRS takes great interest in inventories of product, a 100K loss of product would be noteworthy and traceable via banking transactions with the printer.

Of course, not everyone is a criminal mastermind (nor am I). During the height of 'Magic the Gathering' I knew an artist and she explained to me her plan to deposit the cash payments she received from WotC and simply not tell the IRS of it. She wasn't happy when I pointed out that when the cash was deposited that the IRS had a record of it. Or that paying her rent with said undocumented cash would be missed by the IRS.

Undocumented cash works well for small daily purchases, items over $1000 tend to be durable and less concealable.

Understood.

But if the cash never reenters the US-administered fiscal system, but instead finds a new home in Liechtenstein, Singapore or the Caymans, how would the IRS know about this?

The Intelligencer has actually gone completely digital, so it's technically not a "paper" anymore.


But, as to the rest of the missing funds beyond the $726k, as far Frank's assertions are concerned, that does not include the moneys paid to building contractors which were paid with CGL/IMR funds and labeled as payments to writers. We haven't had any independent confirmation as to the fraudulent check situation yet. However, as of yet there has been no evidence against it, at least not from DSG or Jenny, who actually did the original investigation.

As to Frank's comments on religion, yeah, that was blatant ToS violation, but it doesn't make it any less true that R. Bills using the LDS as an excuse for being complicit after the fact in such a blatant pattern of embezzlement is wasted breath at best. It may have seemed overboard at the time when Frank was laughing at such a comment as being ridiculous, but, since then, information has come to light which shades Bills in such a way as to make that whole letter a farce. This is information which Frank had and which we were not privy to, namely that Jenny approached Bills about this pattern of embezzlement (literally a withdrawal more than every other day) and Lorne's order to falsify records to cover it up, and she was told, by Bills, that if she was not comfortable breaking the law, perhaps she should find other employment. That is not consistent with his words, or his appeal to emotions in the form of faith. That is information which Frank had and which had not yet become an Accepted Truth amongst us gawkers.

<insert pure speculation---hey I'm on topic>

How about the print run of the SR4A, or other project.....just saying as printing costs can add up. Still, as some one who studies numbers for a living, the charts don't mean much. Could some of the withdrawals be legit (travel expenses, freelancers, and such), maybe. Honestly the fact that he could sign off on those items without anyone else in the company is kind of scary. Also the co-mingling of accounts but may indicate he had personal funds in this account along with business funds.

This may have been due to the need to cover his travel expenses (which he may have abused).

As to the unreported con sales, he may have deducted his expenses from the con from those sales as well. Reducing in appearance the amount sold at the con (hes not an accountant--an honest mistake).


Wow--I should work for Horizon.

You don't pay for print runs with cash. You do so with company check so that there's a paper trail. You don't drive to the bank and jump though the hoops of withdrawing thirty thousand in cash and drive it and hand someone a wad of cash for print runs. And the 30K wasn't the only time that was done. There were apparently 11 draws over 10 THOUSAND dollars cash.

He was taking out $640 every 1.8 days....

For every one dollar he put into the bank account he took out $147.

He put in 15 deposits.. and took out one thousand one hundred and thirty six with drawls.

I dislike his attitude. He exposes fact ... yes maybe... For what reason does he do it ? Anger, probably. Human is part chaos part reason. Emotions are chaos. Emotion give you motive that cold logic would not. If I had those fact I would have kept it for me, unless I was pissed at CGL. Weren't Trollman a writer for the SR line ? Did he quit or he got dumped ? If he still got some dirt on his ego for that, he's just blazing his anger on us while exposing stone cold facts and some speculation... He said it himself ... He is digging deeper and deeper to get at the heart of it to stop the pain or to inflict a final blow ? He's all emotion using reason has a tool... So when he flapped his butterfly wings to do the first micro gust of wind he started the typhon. Then he got in that typhon many people that didn't belive in him... he then flapped, and flapped again to create a mega typhon.

I don't think Trollman did it bluntly. He slashed through it like a nice deboning knife through beef. He's taking pleasure to do it and that's what is wrong about it.



XE.com is saying : 1 CAD = 1.00209 USD 1 USD = 0.997918 CAD
CAD Wins !

I see people talking about the draws(Withdrawals) made by Loren L. Coleman, but, I am curious: What about deposits made by Loren L. Coleman?
How much money taken was payment on loans from him to the company? How much was his salary? How much was his wife's salary? How much was his
percentage of CGL's profits?(I would assume as an owner, he got a specific percentage of the profits, after all.)

Where are the rest of Ketjak's charts and graphs that have this information? Or did he just not think to get the other bits of information? It seems way to
one sided and with too much other information missing to be used on its own.

Oh good god! Seriously? Of the two subjects of this thread; L. L. Coleman, and Frank Trollman, Fank is the one you choose to villify? Seriously? You have nothing to say about a guy causing (posibly critical) damage to the game that is your hobby, being a blatant and ham-handed THIEF, but you'll spend several posts bitching about a guy for being a little abrasive?

What ever dude.

It would be nice if I could read this thread without having to read comments about peoples perception of Frank's character. He's GONE ok? What else do you want? Frank's dead on dumpshock; some of us are still grieving. Yes I am, not because I don't want to punch him in the face, but because he was valuable to the community. That's how i feel but I don't give a flying fuck how anyone else feels about him.

How about we let Frank R.I.P.
Frank is dead
Long live the Frank
Frank is dead
Long live the Frank

Some Perspective:
LL coleman: Stole half a million dollars.
Frank: called someone a bad name
LL coleman: directly caused shadowrun books to be unavailable.
Frank: posted his incredulity at people who state that they ask invisible people for favors and advice.
LL coleman: directly caused shadowrun books to be delayed (I'm betting it will be a year or longer before things (if ever) get back on track.)
Frank: insulted someone's intelligence.
LL coleman: Purposely impaired the livelyhoods of real people that we actually know on dumpshock
Frank: indirectly revealed his bias and negative opinions of some of those same people and the company they work for.
LL coleman: Violated his relationship with his employee by directly asking her to do something unethical and unlawfull to cover his own ass.
Frank: once hurt my feelings two years ago by publicly exposing my inability to do arithmetic in a discussion about cyberware. (for which I owe him; One beer of his choice and a punch in the face.)

[edit] instead of my original closing thought, which might have seemed like a threat of violence against a thieving scumbag, I'll instead *speculate* on how apropriate it would be to apply public and violent corporal punishment resulting in grevious bodily harm to people who behave as LLC is substantially portreyed as behaving...yep...my concluson is that it's apropriate.[/edit]

As a late comer in this discussion, Can someone please tell me what is ACTUALLY going on. I have heard rumors ranging from drop bears at my profits to CGL is going down like the Titanic.
Edit:
All I really want to know is this: where does my beloved game stand?

It's obvious. BTL.

While I appreciate that this is said jokingly, lets please refrain from making threats of physical harm to actual people.

The last thing we need is for someone to actually assault LLC and have a police investigation lead back to DS and shit like this.

While MindandPen is far more qualified than I am to answer these question, there has been much speculation and, frankly, unwarranted questioning of ketjack's motives and factualness.

First, what is an LLC? It is a legal form of incorporation wherein the owners must take a salary. Income less expenses (payroll being an expense) is profit and pass through pro-rata to the the owners.

Second, what is an owner's draw? It is an accounting term usually associated with sole proprietorships and single owner corporations. It refers to individual income taken out of the business. In a sole proprietorship, you can do it to your hearts content so long as you report it as income. In a multi-owner LLC (also called partnership LLC), not so much. It shouldn't even be in the chart of accounts. It should be classified as a loan to shareholder or 1099 independent contractor income.

Conclusions: the use of the term "owner's draw" indicates that Loren L Coleman was taking money over and above his salary that should have passed through pro-rata to all of the members. In other words, yes, ketjack is saying that Loren L Coleman was stealing from the other owners. As far as I know, no one has provided any factual information to indicate how Loren L Coleman reported this income, so any guesses would be (sigh) speculation.

The reason the many in the community are so upset with Loren L Coleman and CGL/IMR is that while these owner's draw were taking place, freelancers were not being paid. Many respected freelancers and employees who have produced cherished content and contributed to the continuity of the setting have left. Some of them have cited non-payment and/or personal ethics as the reason for no longer producing Shadowrun content and/or withheld copyright of existing and/or future product.

Other as yet unsubstantiated accusations: Cash convention sales were not reported and went to Loren L Coleman. Loren L Coleman's home was partially paid for by IMR/CGL company funds and recorded in the chart of accounts as payments to freelancers. After copyright was withheld from CGL/IMR, someone within ownership intentionally allowed products to ship and then fired the employee who shipped them. CGL/IMR employees were directed by Loren L Coleman to falsify royalty reports to Topps and instead chose to quit rather than lie.

I understand the feeling that CGL/IMR has put out great product and it would be great if they kept putting out great product. The thing is: if many (most?) of the writers who gave us that product have left, how great will the product be going forward? Also, why would you assume that CGL/IMR is not at fault when many who have been here, at Dumpshock, and contributors to the Shadowrun franchise for much longer than IMR/CGL has even been incorporated as a legal entity, are indicating otherwise. Furthermore, one of the co-owners has corroborated some of their statements with specific figures and general dates.

@MindandPen: Please correct any mistakes I've made.

@Ketjack: If I've misinterpreted anything you posted, I'm sorry. Please correct me.

[EDIT: Redacted "(Most?)". Per JM Hardy, most contributors are still with IMR/CGL.