Ive been into Shadowrun since the 1st ed, I remember when Adam and Bull were posting stuff on Pavos site, cant remember exactly. I remember he wrote a cool character generator.

Im just curious if the late payments is standard fare for the rp industry?

I was thinking if enough SR/BT freelancers got together and became a united front, they could demand new contracts for any new stuff they did. The contract would pay half up front when the article was delivered. I know this isnt how the industry works, but things have to change.

Think how the music industry is slowly changing due to Itunes or the book industry that is kicking and screaming trying not to change, due to ebooks.

Times change and if a company that does not pay on time, a new contract should be used to help out the freelancers.

And quite nice, as an aside. I highly recommend it.

If I were to spend time working on Shadowrun stuff, I would really like to make at least 6 cents a word. That seems to be the average of recognized sfwa fiction, so I don't think it's unreasonable. The economics of the RPG industry seem to favor the owners and distributors.

I'd say writing industry in General.

The Freelancers really need to get Harlan Ellison to write Catalyst a letter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

Really it favors no one. Maybe the printers.

It is done for the love of the thing, not for profit. Profit is a benefit, but its never really what anyone actually deserves out of it. If people were all paid appropriately, no one would actually be able to afford the books x.o

Amen brother!!!

So what is the writing process?
For me (and just me) it goes like this.

On a first pass, I can do 6000 to 7000 words in 8 hours. My goal is a word count greater than required by the publisher.

Second pass, I normally lose about 1/3rd to 1/2 of the word count.

Third pass, I am at parity for the word count tightening things up.

Set it aside for a couple of days and do something completely unrelated (paintball or video games).

Fourth pass, starts by reading it through completely. I have been known to scrap it completely and start over at this point because my craptastic meter pegs out. If it passes initial read through I go back through and make it fit the required word count the publisher wants. Then I hand it to my wife and she reads through it with her bloody red pen in hand. She games a little but is not hard core so she qualifies as a semi-initiated reader, if I can't explain the concepts within the text so she understands I rewrite it until she does get it.

It is work, takes time and really doesn't garner a lot of money but then again that isn't why I do it.

I though that the 4th Edition of the Catalyist Rumor Thread was doing very well, at least at the start. There was a lull there in the middle, but then it really built up some steam when Adam brought up how accountability can be used to encourage Good Will amongst consumers and employees alike, and how such Good Will is a resource which even has an observable market value.

It's just a shame that the 4th Edition ended so abruptly, unlike the 3rd Edition which lasted 50 pages. I just.. I don't think I'm ready for this 5th Edition already. There was merit yet to be had from it.


Dropping the innuendo and getting back on the pseudo-relevant topic of PDF sales, I have to again voice my support for Catalyst's PDF-only mini-supplement releases. They could use a bit more editing before release, but the concept of monthly or so optional expansions seems like a good model. Also, it' an opportunity to hammer through area-specific rules clarifications.

Most larger companies are printing in China, tiny companies print it themselves. 11"x17" double sided printers and color printer page costs have dropped dramatically.

At the price they were putting them out for I was very happy to pick them up, as long as it was only on a monthly basis. Following up with a published "Web Anthology" sort of product each year wouldn't be a bad plan going forward.

I need to thank whoever came up with the magic dealing with radiation in Digital Grimoire for saving a character from a GM who happily allows characters to die of conditions the rules have not provided an antidote for. I also recall there was a vehicle supplement mentioned at some point. If it followed the style of the original Rigger Black Book I may cry.

I can only think of a handful of gaming companies doing in-house printing like this.

Between the major printers and home printing is the Print on Demand/Short Run model, which is typically what you use if you're selling less than a thousand copies of something in black and white.

I took my I'd Rather Be Working comment and posted it over on my blog, which gets a different audience from Dumpshock. Comments, so far, have been interesting! - http://adamjury.com/2010/id-rather-be-working-than-spinning/

I price products for a living, which means I'm constantly trying new things out. I can tell you with some certainty that price is a moving target. Seasonality, customer liquidity, and the economic environment all impact pricing studies. Good luck.

Like the post, and it makes sense to me- I've -very- often felt cheated by the fact that PDFs cost the same as the hard copy, and for no real reason that I can see. I mean heck- as an artist we sell -prints- very much cheaper than original works, which I think is kinda comparable, and even -prints- have an overhead in ink and paper. Digital stuff? Not so much. You're paying for the content, pure and simple. I'd've bought a lot more pdfs if they were reasonably priced, simply because I -am- planning to buy hard copy of everything eventually and that ends up a lot of money.

Digital copies still do have overhead, in several respects:

* They are not identical to the files that get sent to printing companies, so there is time to properly prepare them.
* The vendors that sell PDF files take a percentage from each sale. (you could argue that this is a "lost income" situation rather than a "cost" situation, but it still amounts to "not as many dollars in the publisher's pocket as many people assume." For example, if you sell on DriveThruRPG you keep 70% of the sale price, or 65% if you they are not the exclusive site you sell on.)
* If you aren't going through a vendor, you have costs associated with running your own vending site.

Are those costs as high as the physical materials to print stuff? No, but they're still real.

(and of course, that's assuming that it's not an electronic-only product ... an electronic product has to absorb all the content costs itself!)

Well, like otakusensei brought up, doing a digital+physical Year Book, especially for a product like SR, would make sense. That way, the writers steering the ship get to drop all sorts of hints and help hype new releases with these smaller releases, and they get their day in hard copy so that the digital months guys don't feel like they're 2nd class.

We've actually talked about some things along those lines. There are a few concerns--will people not buy the regular updates and just wait for the yearbook? How much would this sort of thing contribute to rules bloat? Those are not, however, insurmountable concerns. We definitely want to keep eBooks rolling, and as we do so I'm sure there will be various conversations about what eBooks would look like. People's thoughts on what they'd like to see would be helpful--though possibly better suited to another thread.

Jason H.

I'm not the 'average' RPG buyer. I have tons of them on PDF. But I will say, when it comes down to it. i'd rather have the physical book. If it's "Same price" I buy the physical one every time. If the PDF is half or less. I'll usually buy both.

There are some issues (and some benefits) with that idea ... but I don't care much for discussing it in a Shadowrun context right now.

Well, I for one would buy the monthly updates just to have the info on hand and buy the HC because I like the feel of pages turning. And I'm pretty much a collector.

Grexul

I'll grant you that, but it still isn't as much as the print, although in the future I might indulge in the hard copy + pdf packages I'm seeing over on the battleshop -those- seem very reasonable to me.

Heh. We wouldn't want to actually manage some helpful thoughts concerning CGL's situation, especially in this thread.

I can dig where you're coming from on rules bloat, but with supplements like these, you could stick to what you've been pushing thus far. Most of it is a bit of light fiction with stats. The rest could just be general fleshing of rules for specific locations, like some expanded vehicle combat rules for an Urban Brawl book or a Demolition Derby book. It's all just ideas to fill the world so that GMs don't have to keep their players kicking through corporate cubicles.

As to who will buy what, obviously a new player who has missed a year of releases would be better off grabbing up the Trade Paperback equivalent of the Year Book if they're the completionist type, while a more causal guy will cherry-pick the content which fits their game best. And those die hard types (like Grexul among others) will get their monthly dose and then grab the Year Book besides. Everyone knows a good business plan is about creating an addiction in your consumer.

I would like to get another Street Samurai or Fields of Fire book, Cyberpunk used to have alot of equipment books, I remember back in the day Plastic Warriors converted some of the books to Shadworun. Cant remember if it was a group or just the web site name.

Personally I am still so very very hopeful about the Atlas.. I -need- info on Tir Na Nog, and France and Amazonia for two different games (I'm playing a pixie in one! Native to the Tir and moved to France then to LA.. only theres no recent info *arm flail*)

Actually, since Adam brought it up, why not publish more e-books? He legally seeded Eclipse Phase to BitTorrent, and still sold out of hardcopies *and* had a strong sale on e-copies. I don't think you have much to worry about.

As for the last thread, I was careful to list my opinion as my opinion, and cite facts as facts. For example, it is a fact that Jennifer Harding left due to ethical concerns, specifically being asked to falsify reports by Loren Coleman. It is my opinion that this basically means she was forced out, rather or not she got to write a resignation letter. I have a similar opinion on Ancient History's leaving the freelancer rolls. These are my opinions, and I'm not forcing anyone to agree with them. I'm also not asking you to like them, so if you don't, tough. If you happen to think my opinions are "off the rails", well... first, that's a personal attack, and doesn't belong here. But second, if you don't like the facts I present, then present better ones. If you don't like my opinions, present yours, and try and support them better than I have.

I'm the same way. I often wonder what percentage of SR consumers are the hard core collectors who will buy anything they publish just to have it, and what effect that has on book sales.

i'd guess they'd go up O.o

Err... Stahlseele, the "collectors" are already accounted for in sales figures, because they're already collecting.

Since I am the GM for our Shadowrun and D&D 4E games; I like to have as much material available as possible. The GM's for the Call of Cthulhu, Mutants & Masterminds and Pathfinder games maintain their own library of source books.
All players are responsible for are whatever book they need for thier PC's. Like if a player wants an ogre shaman, he'll need Shadowrun, Street Magic, Runner's Companion and maybe Digial Grimoire.
And just to put a bug in someones ear, can we get a Los Angeles source book? I have California Free State, NeoA's Guide to NA and Corporate Enclaves, but I'm looking for something along the lines of the Rotten Apple: Manhattan and Seattle 2072!
So there are many of us out here waiting to buy pretty much whatever you put out, as long as the standards are kept high.

Grexul

ps we were thinking of picking up Battletech when the Pathfinder campaign ends.

G

There are a lot of full-on location source books that I would love to see!

Atlanta, Bangkok, Rio, Moscow, D.C., Havana, Instanbul, and New Delhi!

@Adam...new collectors!

You should check out Corporate Enclaves.

CGL is not responsible for replacing your pants when you check out Masters and Minions.

Well.... He already has... see your quote, it is in the listing.
I assume that he wants MORE information thant he previous books have provided...

Keep the Faith

But perhaps a pants-replacement policy could buy CGL some much needed goodwill?

Good news Patrick !!!!

D'oh!

I can see the trouble with a yearly anthology book of digital supplements. I know for myself I would be buying the digital releases as I can afford them and then purchasing the physical book. I know a few players in my circles that would be waiting for the physical book because they are not big PDF fans. The idea was floated mostly as a way to make sure that the content you publish reaches all corners of your market.

Personally though I prefer the focused source books rather than the ones that sort of touch on everything. I'd love to see a series of updated core books in the SR4A style. Even if the material was mostly recycled I'd love to have some full color hardbound Anniversary editions next to SR4A.

If any Shadowrun book came out that was as well written and produced as Masters and Minions, I would need a defibrillator handy. The quantity, consistency and quality of writing in that book moved many of my players to great interest in A Time of War. Now if CGL could just the get dead tree version moving.


BlueMax

That should be available, we sold print versions at GenCon.

He means the print version of A Time of War.

ToW:Indeed. Best $10 I've ever spent on a PDF.
M&M:Best $50 I've ever spent on a paperback.

To be clear: Its not the color that makes M&M such a great book.

BlueMax

I hoard books, I'm almost certain I have enough of the things between my reading addiction and my P&P addiction to build a small fort and sniper people out of it with a nerf gun. I only ever get rid of douplicates..and thats only if they are the exact same edition with no differentiation between them >.>

For the Record:
Don't expect any future postings from Frank Trollman, he got handed a permanent ban.

Really? Eclipse Phase is available legally on BitTorrent? I was looking to buy this in July. Discounting that I like to support awesome games, why would I pay for it rather than download it?

Cool art and stuff, better layout

Personally, it's Southeast Asia I'd love to see more about. The Dega Alliance stuff going on in Vietnam, the Naga in Cambodia, the struggle for control of Laos... none of it's gotten much attention as of late, and I'd love to see more.

And as for PDFs and books and things, I gotta say, I will happily pay significantly more for a physical book. Maybe I'm a dinosaur, but I am deeply intrinsically uncomfortable with the idea of paying for data, for an image of something, unless I'm paying with a scanned image of my money. So the existence of things that are solely online, like 10 Gangs, troubles me.

Easier access to updates. Easier to tick the "Email me updates about this PDF" than watch a bittorrent tracker all the time, I think.

That, though, is one reason we did seed it to bittorrent -- we believe that there are a portion of gamers that "get their new release info" from bittorrent trackers and other sharing sites, as opposed to DriveThruRPG, RPG.net, or other "traditional" gaming sites. I don't want to fight those people. They're gamers, too, and I fully believe -- and have evidence to support it -- that they will support games that are awesome, even if they could otherwise get them for free.

But of course, the main reason to do so is: buying games helps ensure that those games will continue to be produced. We're likely going to explore a few more options for people who want to be "supporters" of Eclipse Phase and who are willing to kick in more than the retail price to help more money go to the creators of each project.

Basically, what Adam is doing, is proving once again, that piracy is not a big problem, if your product is actually worth being bought . .
I had no intentions on getting eclipse phase, but i support things like this.

Adam already answered this one. Basically, there's a percentage of fans who will pay for your product, even if it's available for free elsewhere. I know I paid for a copy of Wushu, even though I can get access to the fan-based Wushu Open Reloaded project for free.

The really important thing about EP is not that it's available for free, too – it's that it Free Content, licensed CC-BY-NC-SA-3.

So if you want to provide fan material, you are allowed to pick things from the releases and use it according to the license – in fact, the GM screen is available with the production files so you can modify it to your liking.