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pbangarth
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Apr 12 2010, 03:28 PM) *
No personal attacks.

ToS
I like the new moderator's voice colour. It's kinda hip, jazzy, almost gay. Not at all like that old, bold orange.
otakusensei
At this point in the game of selling roleplaying books, deciding whether or not to sell PDFs is about the same as waiting out to see if Edison or Tesla will come out on top with that whole "Electricity" business.

PDFs are a good way to supplement traditional sales and create additional revenue without going through traditional channels of distribution. It's a growing market and honestly represents the future. For my money I hope things go more toward the Eclipse Phase philosophy and less toward the iTunes style digital market place. DRM is a pox some industries are mad with.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 12 2010, 05:34 PM) *
I like the new moderator's voice colour. It's kinda hip, jazzy, almost gay. Not at all like that old, bold orange.


I prefer the color of fire and brimstone. Matches the car, too. I like to accessorize, what can I say... But yes, please no personal attacks, allegedly deserved or not.
Ancient History
Being as this is the ninth page of the fifth thread, the runes say it is time I speak again.

Nobody is happy with this situation, Frank Trollman's gleeful tone aside. Whatever your personal opinion about the matters discussed in this and related threads, and the responses by CGL, Jason Hardy, and various freelancers, it is apparent that it is a bad situation. The exact degree may be a matter of debate for those interested in it, but without hard facts to go by we are left with the impression that it is a bad situation - and I would contend that despite the fact some checks have gone out, it has not yet gotten markedly better.

Currently, our debate appears to be focused mainly on who is right and who is wrong. Frank Trollman's many accusations are unsupported by any official documentation, though ex-freelancers like myself can and have confirmed that his statements jive with what we know or have heard, and hit close enough to home to provoke a response from CGL. Frank has not yet (and, with being permanently banned, probably never will) revealed his source or sources, which many have criticized him for. Others have preferred to criticize those members of Dumpshock that feel entitled to know about the purely private or internal functions of the company, seeing their questions as presumptuous.

In considering these matters, I believe what is right is honesty, and what is wrong is dishonesty. In that sense, I believe that nearly all of the people involved in this debate are in the right. There have been very few people on these threads that have posted under false pretenses, who have willingly endeavored to spread lies and misconceptions, or who have lied by not telling the whole truth. The freelancers (current and former), line developers, et al. have posted under their common handles and with fair expectation that their identities were known or could be discerned. Most people, whether they expressed support or disgust or distress, have done so openly and with every appearance of honesty. The veracity of Frank Trollman's claims may be doubted, but I do not think it can be doubted that he honestly believes them.

Patrick Goodman dislikes the inquiry into CGL's private affairs, and I can sympathize. He is correct in that none of these matters is technically the affair of anyone not directly financially involved with the company, be they owners or freelancers. The "leaks" have certainly damaged the relationship between the management of CGL and the freelancers, and in some cases the relationship between CGL or members thereof and some of its fans. However, I ultimately believe Frank Trollman was right to post as he did. He was under no obligation to, and probably knew the furor that would result, but in the end it appears to be his decision that the truth of the matter as he knew it was important enough to the fanbase as a whole that it should be a matter for open discussion.

If I am correct in my reasoning, I cannot rightly fault Frank for that, because Shadowrun is bigger than just Catalyst. If, as it appears from CGL's own statements, there is substantial mismanagement from the very top, and a desire to conceal it at the very top, and an acceptance and continued approval of the perpetrators of it at the very top, then I cannot see that being a positive thing for Shadowrun in the long term. I would honestly rather see Shadowrun under a new, hopefully more honest (or competent, if the financial mismanagement does turn out to be accidental) company than one which knowingly supports someone who makes such a mismanagement. I would (and have) cut ties rather than deal with people that accept and continue to work with such individuals. Some, like Bull, have a similar view. To him, Shadowrun is bigger than the company, and he wants to continue to be a part of Shadowrun. I can understand and respect that viewpoint, even if I don't share it.

Which is all a very long way to say: at this point, there is nothing to do but wait and see. I would not ask anyone here to take what I say at face value, but I think I've made my biases clear. If there is any underlying motive, it is a desire that no one else need be warned, suspended, or banned due to these threads. As you post, I would ask you all to consider that we are all making our own judgments as to what is true and what is false, and respond with the understanding that the actual facts of the matter are currently few. We deal mainly with the effects and implications.
Bob Lord of Evil
QUOTE (virgileso @ Apr 12 2010, 08:26 PM) *
nothing positive being done by the owner/perpetrator


In your opinion.


QUOTE (virgileso @ Apr 12 2010, 09:14 PM) *
A number of employees (freelancers included) are no longer working for the company


Others continue on and new ones step forward.


A guy is on the ledge of 40-story building, standing on the sidewalk is another fellow gleefully leading the chant 'jump, jump, jump'. I won't speak for others, but for me I have a great deal of empathy for the one on top of the building and no respect for the cheerleader.

The posts had calmed down but somebody didn't feel that was to their benefit so they bring out the gas. So...I ask, what is your angle? What benefit do you reap if CGL folds? Are you a rep from another company that would like to see get the licenses?

The best way for those who are owed money is for CGL to work their way out of the situation. This is not a job market that I would want to see people go looking for new employment in. Real people are having their lives upended and I feel for them.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
I think the freelancers and those who have left Catalyst should pool their resources and snatch the rights to publish Shadowrun products out from under them, even if it's a money loser that puts them so deep in the red that their grandchildren's grandchildren will be mired under it. Because I said so. The only support I will give them is the buying of products I like. C'mon, guys, do it for me! For ME!
Pepsi Jedi
Unrealistic though. If one man can steal over half a million to close to a million dollars before it came out, the property has to be worth two or three times that. MINIMUM, so a few writers getting together would have to surpass that startup capital.

Not likely to happen.
kanislatrans
Thats why i keep buying powerball tickets...175 million on wednesday and I can own the whole shooting match by friday! grinbig.gif grinbig.gif grinbig.gif grinbig.gif grinbig.gif
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 12 2010, 03:57 PM) *
Unrealistic though. If one man can steal over half a million to close to a million dollars before it came out, the property has to be worth two or three times that. MINIMUM, so a few writers getting together would have to surpass that startup capital.

Not likely to happen.


I'm not interested in realistic. I'm interested in me!

Perhaps they should get donations from people they know so that they can provide me with more official shadowrun products.
Cain
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 01:28 PM) *
"Extreme embezzlement" is a very loaded term. Until you can come up with a definition that people can objectively agree to, I'm going to politely disagree that the term represents a cut-and-dry fact. I would also not put the claim of fraud into the cut and dry column.

The fact that people leaked information shows that they are angry. I don't blame them for being angry; I'm angry too, at a wide number of things. That anger, though, does not "guarantee" that CGL will lose the Shadowrun license. It indicates that there are problems at CGL, which no one is disputing. That's why I've been on these boards frequently, talking to people, etc., to try to communicate what I can and relieve some of the tension that has cropped up to the best of my ability.

I never said speculation was against the rules. I asked you not to do it because it doesn't help the situation and further inflames a situation that has already caused severe strain on a significant number of people. I'm sorry you find the request insulting; it was not intended as such.

Then why don't you rebut his points? Use facts when you can, opinion where you can't.

For example, his main argument is that Topps won't renew the license come May, no matter what, because CGL doesn't have the money and because of the ethical concerns. Why don't you list some positive points as to why you think CGL can (and should) keep the license? You can use both facts and opinion, although I'd ask you to separate the two, as has been asked of us.
Werewindlefr
QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ Apr 12 2010, 06:31 PM) *
The posts had calmed down but somebody didn't feel that was to their benefit so they bring out the gas. So...I ask, what is your angle? What benefit do you reap if CGL folds? Are you a rep from another company that would like to see get the licenses?

I can name at least two:
-The possibility for the freelancers and employees who decided to resign and to never work with CGL ever again to start working on Shadowrun again. A big part of the community likes them, and feel they should be working on some of the new products. We don't know what the new ones will be like, but there's a lot to lose and little to gain in the swap.
-And not having someone who's very likely to have stolen almost a million dollars at the head of the publishing company.

If CGL keeps the license, it brings a sort of safety: Shadowrun will continue being published. But it comes with a cost, because CGL has damaged itself and the license.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 08:27 PM) *
Then why don't you rebut his points? Use facts when you can, opinion where you can't.

For example, his main argument is that Topps won't renew the license come May, no matter what, because CGL doesn't have the money and because of the ethical concerns. Why don't you list some positive points as to why you think CGL can (and should) keep the license? You can use both facts and opinion, although I'd ask you to separate the two, as has been asked of us.


Because I'm not playing "What if." I could list arguments, other people could counter them, and we could have a long debate that in the end would not involve the people who actually are making the decision. I'll leave the decision to Topps; in the meantime, I will keep working on products.

Jason H.
tweak
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 09:36 PM) *
Because I'm not playing "What if." I could list arguments, other people could counter them, and we could have a long debate that in the end would not involve the people who actually are making the decision. I'll leave the decision to Topps; in the meantime, I will keep working on products.

Jason H.


Let me express my concerns. There are still Shadowrun books, which I haven't bought. If this license expires, then I might not be able to buy them. So the BIG question for me is: should I run out and buy them before the deadline? Right now, I have no guidance, so I'm not sure what to do. Can someone push me in the right direction? I have a cart full of Shadowrun stuff in my amazon cart. Now, my gut tells me that Catalyst will give up the Shadowrun license before they give up the Battletech license, but that's just my gut feel from what I have read here.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (tweak @ Apr 12 2010, 08:45 PM) *
Let me express my concerns. There are still Shadowrun books, which I haven't bought. If this license expires, then I might not be able to buy them. So the BIG question for me is: should I run out and buy them before the deadline? Right now, I have no guidance, so I'm not sure what to do. Can someone push me in the right direction? I have a cart full of Shadowrun stuff in my amazon cart. Now, my gut tells me that Catalyst will give the Shadowrun license before they give up the Battletech license, but that's just my gut feel from what I have read here.


I honestly wish I could give you specifics. Catalyst is working to retain both the Shadowrun and Battletech licenses. I don't know if Topps is thinking of separating them or not, but I have not heard anything from Catalyst management about keeping one and not the other. Both are important.

I don't know what the timeframe for Topps making a decision is, but I will be certain to pass more information along when I have it. There are other variables to consider, such as what would happen to Catalyst-produced properties should a new company acquire the license, and I have absolutely no idea what would happen.

Believe me, I really wish I could give more definite info.

Jason H.
Abschalten
The good news is if you go out and buy the books where the copyright has been withheld, Catalyst isn't actually getting any more money. Those are books that have already been sold to distributors and retailers. Once they're gone, they're gone. Catalyst already has their money. Might as well snatch them up while you can.
augmentin
From a complete nobody with no right to post on this subject. But, it never stopped me before, so...

AH is right. There's no factual basis for any of the statements made whether Trollman's or CGL's or anyone else. Obviously there's not going to be a grand inquiry from Topps and even if there was, we'll never hear about it.

Thing is, the accusations being made are that people committed fraud, theft, and tax evasion, and furthermore that people posting on these boards continue to work for those people. None of us will likely ever know if this is true or not. Even if CGL looses the license, it won't prove anything. Short of a lien filed by the IRS, we'll never know. (And who's going to take the time to regularly datamine for that?) Some say that buying SR books is morally wrong. Others say that speculating about unknowables is wrong. Some say that posting anonymously is wrong. Some say that posting public information is wrong. Others say that revealing information is admirable.

Given these accusations, I'm just not sure how personal attacks could possibly be avoided. It's a testament to the DS community that there haven't been more personal attacks. The moderators are doing an admirable job. That said, I don't think anyone should be surprised when more users are permabanned. It's entirely unavoidable given the subject.

BTW- been away a bit. What'd Frank do to get permabanned this time?

nylanfs
QUOTE (tweak @ Apr 12 2010, 08:45 PM) *
Let me express my concerns. There are still Shadowrun books, which I haven't bought. If this license expires, then I might not be able to buy them. So the BIG question for me is: should I run out and buy them before the deadline? Right now, I have no guidance, so I'm not sure what to do. Can someone push me in the right direction? I have a cart full of Shadowrun stuff in my amazon cart. Now, my gut tells me that Catalyst will give up the Shadowrun license before they give up the Battletech license, but that's just my gut feel from what I have read here.


How about this to help you tweak

a) Do you like the direction that CGL has taken Shadowrun? (I personally do, but YMWV)

b) What are the chances that if CGL does not retain the license that whom ever the new company is that picks it up will continue this direction or go in a radically new direction (ie d20 SR or worse...)

If you like the current direction, and you think that the license won't stay with CGL, buy everything you don't currently have because the new direction might be horrible beyond belief.

Or if you like the new, and you think that CGL might retain the license then you are just helping them out even if it's a minuscule amount.

Or if you don't like the direction that the game has been going why would you buy anything for SR4 anyway (unless it's the settings books to use with SR1,2 or 3)

By my logic it would be foolish to not buy anything because it might not be available in the future. smile.gif
Cain
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 05:36 PM) *
Because I'm not playing "What if." I could list arguments, other people could counter them, and we could have a long debate that in the end would not involve the people who actually are making the decision. I'll leave the decision to Topps; in the meantime, I will keep working on products.

I'm not playing "What if" either. I'm giving you a chance to list several positive things about Catalyst, things we may not be aware of. Here's your opportunity to toot your own horn, so to speak, and tell us about the good things that happen where you work. Brag about products, if you like: "I can't tell you details, but War! has some high-quality material that I'm really proud of. It will blow your socks off." Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one.
Method
QUOTE (augmentin @ Apr 12 2010, 06:56 PM) *
BTW- been away a bit. What'd Frank do to get permabanned this time?
You can read about it in the thread so dedicated in the News, Bug Reports, Feature Requests, & Discussion forum.
The Jake
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 12 2010, 07:57 PM) *
So it goes to the owners and, indirectly, to anyone with a permanent salary over there. So if I were to sit on my hands until the matter is settled, and publicly say "please settle this matter because I can't support a company which is failing to properly pay its creative people", that would be a good thing, even if it's only a tiny good thing.


+1.

I've been thinking this for awhile but I think its time I join the bandwagon.

- J.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 09:18 PM) *
I'm not playing "What if" either. I'm giving you a chance to list several positive things about Catalyst, things we may not be aware of. Here's your opportunity to toot your own horn, so to speak, and tell us about the good things that happen where you work. Brag about products, if you like: "I can't tell you details, but War! has some high-quality material that I'm really proud of. It will blow your socks off." Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one.


Well, in the tags here is the 800-word article I recently wrote about Why Shadowrun Is Awesome Now. Have at it!

[ Spoiler ]




Jason H.
augmentin
What're the chances of an unofficial DS survey of who should get or keep the license? This is an unbiased (moderators anyway - the rest of us are pretty well entrenched in our biases) forum of the most rabid fans of the game. If I were an executive at Topps, I'd like to know what the most vocal of my customer base thought. In corporate speak, you are the "alpha consumers" that advertisers and marketers so covet.
Ancient History
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 02:38 AM) *
Well, in the tags here is the 800-word article I recently wrote about Why Shadowrun Is Awesome Now. Have at it!

I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.
lehesu
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 10:18 PM) *
I'm not playing "What if" either. I'm giving you a chance to list several positive things about Catalyst, things we may not be aware of. Here's your opportunity to toot your own horn, so to speak, and tell us about the good things that happen where you work. Brag about products, if you like: "I can't tell you details, but War! has some high-quality material that I'm really proud of. It will blow your socks off." Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one.

And how, pray tell, is the quality of an upcoming product in any way germane to deflecting concerns about license renewal? Anyone who is pumping Hardy for information about the imminent failure of CGL is not going to be appeased by the pimping of an upcoming product. Such information should be provided for its own reasons, not as some half-assed attempt at deflecting incessant inquiries.
augmentin
Um, I predicted further permabans, but let's not rush into them. I miss Trollman's often acerbic commentary and would hate to loose your much politer insights, AH. Please don't go the personal attack route. We need you here on DS...
Enin
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 07:45 PM) *
I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.



In all fairness, Cain asked JH to say something good about CGL. Whether or not that's what Cain was looking for is another matter entirely.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 09:45 PM) *
I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.


Which helps prove the point I assumed would come up pretty soon. If I don't post good things about Catalyst, then according to Cain there is nothing good going on. If I do post good things, then it's "self-aggrandizing crappola." Why, I can't at all see why I might be reluctant to engage in these discussions!

Jason H.
Ancient History
Jason, be fair. That's not posting good things about CGL, that's posting ad copy that I couldn't read with a straight face.
augmentin
RE: JMH
No doubt a good publicist would advise you not to. Personally, I'm glad to have someone representing the "official" side of thing, vague though you often are. I suspect your personal opinions are stronger than what you are able to post in your official capacity, but, oh, that would be speculation...
tweak
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 11:01 PM) *
Which helps prove the point I assumed would come up pretty soon. If I don't post good things about Catalyst, then according to Cain there is nothing good going on. If I do post good things, then it's "self-aggrandizing crappola." Why, I can't at all see why I might be reluctant to engage in these discussions!

Jason H.


In my experience, gamers tend to live on the tails of any normal distribution. You say anything, and they'll tell you the less than 1% exception. If I say I cannot find anyone who wants to play a matrix based Shadowrun game, I'll receive a hundred plus posts of exceptions. I have no idea why this is. It really grates on my nerves. I hate this behavior more than rules lawyering, which Firefox tells me isn't a real word.

So I totally understand.

Anyway, thanks for your reply. And remember, according to GI JOE, knowing is half the battle. I wonder if these threads are filled with closet GI JOE fans, who have this PSA message going over and over in their heads. They must know:) So blame GI JOE!
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 10:03 PM) *
Jason, be fair. That's not posting good things about CGL, that's posting ad copy that I couldn't read with a straight face.


Interesting combination of first sentence and second sentence. Why is it that your opinion of it is the only one that counts as "fair"?

Jason H.
Ancient History
Because of the two of us, I'm the one that hasn't tried posting bad ad copy and pass it off as saying good things about a company.
DireRadiant
There are many strong views and varying opinions in this matter, I ask you all to please do your best to avoid antagonizing each other as you share and discuss them.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 10:10 PM) *
Because of the two of us, I'm the one that hasn't tried posting bad ad copy and pass it off as saying good things about a company.


Oh. So it's fair because you're opinion is the only possible correct one. All right then. Good to know.

EDIT: I'm getting dragged into something I have no desire to be involved in. I'm redacting that and stopping now. My apologies to everyone out there.

Jason H.
Dread Moores
QUOTE (Patrick Goodman @ Apr 12 2010, 05:19 PM) *
Can't really argue with you there, I suppose. Everyone involved seems to agree that there is, in fact, a container filled with SR4A LEs somewhere in the customs system. You're automatic assumption elsewhere that it's a tax lien against Loren L Coleman is the sheerest of speculation.


I have no idea what the reason is for things held in customs, but I did want to point out, this is not the first time this has happened for CGL. I believe it was StratOps (maybe TacOps) that ran into a similar customs hold up on the BT side. Considering that was quite a while back, I'd hazard a guess to say that had nothing to do with a tax lien. No idea what the cause is, just throwing another possibility out there.
Dread Moores
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 11:03 PM) *
Jason, be fair. That's not posting good things about CGL, that's posting ad copy that I couldn't read with a straight face.


I had no problem reading it with a straight face. Considering some of the opinions you've put out there towards Jason specifically, I'd maybe submit that you're not exactly reading it with an unskewed viewpoint?

But, yes, the piece really has nothing to do with the current situation. Cain did seem to ask for the good side of Catalyst though, and that piece did seem to address what Jason felt were some good reasons to be involved with SR. It might not be what some wanted, but it did fit the request, even if it was simply a puff piece. I'd imagine puff pieces are part of the job as a line developer, falling under pimping your product.

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 10:18 PM) *
Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one.


No, we're not. You might, as well as others might. Some of us will, some of us won't, and some of us will feel that one has nothing to do with the other. Please don't speak as if you are the voice of the entire community Cain. No one of us here is. I'd submit it is best to keep opinions clearly labeled as personal, rather than communal.

One thing I am curious about to the fans (freelancers/former employees as well, considering I'd think they qualify as fans). wink.gif

Let's say everything proceeds ahead with CGL retaining the license. Let's say the freelancers are paid what they are owed. Whatever issues the CGL owners have to work out amongst themselves, and in terms of procedures for financial management, they're handled behind closed doors (where I feel they should be, but that's only my own opinions on the matter). If all these things happen, does this change anything for you in the future as a fan? Does it change your willingness to purchase product from CGL at all? If you've received the books you pay for and the people owed money are paid, does it make a difference for you? That's not meant as a loaded question, but simple curiosity.

To answer my own question: No, I'd likely still be buying CGL product (I currently still am, since new PDF rereleases have been hitting the Battleshop for BT and some more Leviathans material). I'd still be buying product, but I'd probably offer some cautionary advice to anyone I knew who had desires to get involved as a freelancer (myself included).
tete
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 12 2010, 11:10 PM) *
Ugg. I hope they don't go totally PDF..


The idea (and supposedly they are getting close) is that you as a consumer wont notice. Your FLGS will be able to order direct from the POD store so the only thing you may notice is the logo of the POD shop if anything. For PDF customers we will be able to include a POD copy on our PDF purchase and have it arrive at our door a few days later. This is also good for FLGS as if all you want is a hard copy it should still be the cheapest way to go. They may however loose some people who already buy PDFs from convince of clicking a box but those customers probably already go to Amazon. The only people I see getting screwed "If" they can pull it off is wholesalers like Alliance. Again I don't know if they met this goal just that they plan to start closing down the print shop this year (slowly).
Mongoose
Truth told, what Jason said in his essay is pretty much exactly what you'd hear from your better-than-normally informed game store sales person when asked "what's good about Shadowrun". It nicely highlighted both the strong legacy behind Shaodwrun, and the upsides of recent publications. Sure, that's typical for ad copy- and so what?

I agree- what's good about Shadowun isn't the same as what's good about Catalyst. But its really not ANY LD's place to comment on the strengths (or weaknesses) of their publishing company, as those are largely outside their control, and may well be confidential.
eidolon
I just wonder what my chances of seeing the LE copy of the 25th anny copy I was already charge for are. Will I ever see my large chunk of change (for a book, anyway) again if they're not allowed to make and sell me the book?

And yeah. I'll pose for the cover. Sure.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (eidolon @ Apr 12 2010, 11:08 PM) *
I just wonder what my chances of seeing the LE copy of the 25th anny copy I was already charge for are. Will I ever see my large chunk of change (for a book, anyway) again if they're not allowed to make and sell me the book?

And yeah. I'll pose for the cover. Sure.


There are no restrictions on the selling of the LE. As soon as they arrive in our hands, we'll be sending them out. We should have more definitive information soon--this week, from what I have heard.

Jason H.
otakusensei
I would have liked to hear something about how CGL is working to fix the current situation. Perhaps an estimated timeline for the release of new material or a percentage of completion of it. I want to know about the bones of the company, the feeling from day to day and hopefully get some idea of what is going to happen. At this point if CGL goes away there are going to be a lot of "I told you so!"s but even more people just pissed off and disappointed that things were dragged out as long as they were. If CGL rights itself but takes months to start getting new product and reprints into the channel there's just going to more months (maybe a year?) of doom and gloom and questions of whether or not the "new crew" is up to the task. It's a shitty situation to be in, both for customers and people working at CGL, and I know most of us just want what is best for the game and justice. In that order more than likely.

There is this magical situation where CGL right itself and starts cranking out books on a regular basis but I ruled that out as total fantasy. If there is any evidence to the contrary please correct me.

We all know the currently published material is great, many of us own it. I'm glad Seattle 2072 is getting recognized, it deserves it. The communications from CGL have been very measured, which I can understand. But as a consumer I balk at the sales pitch. This is Dumpshock after all. If I wasn't a rabid fan I don't think I'd be following thread #5 of this business trolling for new info.

Edit: Also knowing where my LE is would be great. Thank you Jason, and I look forward to your update.
Method
Jason already commented on the current state of the line in Tread #2. Link
JM Hardy
The thing is, even before this entire situation broke, we did not give out information about product timing until we had a street date for them. There are too many things that can delay a product as it moves forward, and past experience had shown that announcing a date and then not meeting it proved very frustrating to fans. Now, of course, the ideal would be announcing a date and then consistently hitting it, but as I said there are a lot of variables out there, and one inevitably jumps up and bites you in the butt.

The basic order of things is this: First, we are working to get already published or completed books back on sale. Checks have been sent out to help that process, but it's not enough to mail checks; we have to wait until they have cleared before we can move forward. In cases where more than just checks are needed, we're working to get the advice and knowledge we need to move forward with what we can.

Second (though in truth this is happening at the same time as the first thing), I'm working to get products that were on the verge of coming out, out. That means, in essentially this order, DotA 2, Corp Guide, Sixth World Almanac, Runner's Toolkit. That's where my efforts have been focused recently.

After that will come the books that have been drafted to some degree: War!, Attitude, the conclusion of Dawn of the Artifacts, and some new adventures. And then we venture into new territory.

As I have said before, I am working to get product out. That will continue to be the case until someone in an official capacity tells me I shouldn't do that anymore. Also, I only discussed my activities. Management is working on important activities such as paying freelancers, dealing with the license, finding personnel as needed, etc. etc. But again, there are details that, for many reasons (such as: they're confidential, there's legal stuff involved, we have policy against committing to dates before products are ready, and there's stuff I just plain don't know) won't come out in this forum.

Jason H.
Dread Moores
QUOTE (tete @ Apr 12 2010, 10:51 PM) *
The idea (and supposedly they are getting close) is that you as a consumer wont notice. Your FLGS will be able to order direct from the POD store so the only thing you may notice is the logo of the POD shop if anything. For PDF customers we will be able to include a POD copy on our PDF purchase and have it arrive at our door a few days later. This is also good for FLGS as if all you want is a hard copy it should still be the cheapest way to go. They may however loose some people who already buy PDFs from convince of clicking a box but those customers probably already go to Amazon. The only people I see getting screwed "If" they can pull it off is wholesalers like Alliance. Again I don't know if they met this goal just that they plan to start closing down the print shop this year (slowly).



Hey, that's pretty interesting. I hadn't heard that's what Catalyst RED was leading to. Thanks for that. smile.gif

I have no local gaming shop anywhere near by to even think about taking advantage of that (hence why the BattleShop worked wonders for me), but it's still a pretty interesting path to take.
Adam
tete is speaking of OneBookShelf (DriveThruRPG/RPGNow) and their upcoming POD service, which is in the testing phases as certain freelance graphic designers prep books for different clients... wink.gif
eidolon
Thanks, Jason. I've been away, so apologies if you had already answered that in one of the billions of posts made about this whole mess.

I will tell you folks that I just clicked "Place Order" a few minutes ago to make sure I'd get me a Seattle 2072 and a Vice. That means diddly squat in the grand scheme of the speculation, but I'm one to hedge these kinds of bets. smile.gif
Octopiii
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 06:45 PM) *
I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work.


I agree. The new Seattle book was extremely disappointing. Entire sections were simply lifted whole from previous Seattle sourcebooks. The same goes with some of the "setting" locations: Feral City's write up for Lagos leaned heavily on Cyberpirates!, for example. Continuity is nice, of course, but frankly the parts of the new books I liked were the ones that had already been written for previous editions. I haven't looked at Vice yet, but i'm told it was disappointing, which I can unfortunately see based on recent releases.

I like Catalyst for cleaning up the rules. I'm not so enthused by their other work, however.
BlueMax
Jason,
I had a long day. Where was "get more material to playtesters"? and "with plenty of time for feedback"?
nyahnyah.gif
/me ducks
/me zags
/me zigs

BlueMax
/ bet you thought I would zig first

MindandPen
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 12 2010, 04:32 PM) *
Well Jason, the numbers we've seen seem to indicate between $600,000 and $800,000 dollars.

To the average RPG buyer that seems pretty extreme. Now.. it's not on par with multibillion dollar firms or international banking embezzlements, but over half a million to almost a million dollars is a lot of coin.

I don't think acting like that term is strange is being 100% forthright. Even the low ball number is over half a million dollars. That's pretty extreme.


I think the issue is with the phrase "embezzlement". As has been mentioned elsewhere, that is a legal term with very specific set of criteria. While there is money not where it is supposed to be, how that is viewed, how it is rectified, and how things are adjusted going forward will, I think, play more into the mind of TOPPS than anything else.

Let me give a simple example. Assume you have a $1000, and you spend all of it on Shadowrun books instead of rent, car, food, utilities. The question is, did you embezzle the money, or did you spend it unwisely? When this is done by an individual, it is very simple, and the results are likewise very simple - you lose your place to live, your car, your lights, and are hungry. If you're married, your spouse is probably not very happy.

Now, move this to an LLC where the family checkbook is now a joint checkbook. Oh, and to make things fun, let's put one of the owners checkbook in with the company checkbook.

Unraveling that mess becomes a problem, and where that problem crosses the line from "serious problem between the owners" to "criminal activity" is the type of thing that keeps tax attorneys and the IRS busy.

Am I saying that Loren L. Coleman is a "good guy". NO. Given all the other issues; from the situation with Jennifer, the leaving of other employees related to his actions, the non-payment to freelancers, and all the other things he is reported as doing; he is, at least, a very bad business man and apparently ethically challenged.

Is that criminal? I don't know, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know if it could be proven in a court of law.

Is it enough to kill the SR license?

I don't know, it has been indicated that:
  1. Procedures are in place to ensure this does not happen again
  2. Loren is paying back the money

The question is, does TOPPS believe it is better/cheaper/more profitable to fix the CGL situation or start with a new license holder. That is an answer that ONLY TOPPS can give, anything else is a wild-ass guess.

For me, I'll wait and see. If good product comes out I'll buy it. If bad product comes out, I won't. Ultimately, the fan base will decide the fate of CGL and Shadowrun with their pocketbooks, not Loren's.

-M&P
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Octopiii @ Apr 13 2010, 01:23 AM) *
I agree. The new Seattle book was extremely disappointing. Entire sections were simply lifted whole from previous Seattle sourcebooks. The same goes with some of the "setting" locations: Feral City's write up for Lagos leaned heavily on Cyberpirates!, for example. Continuity is nice, of course, but frankly the parts of the new books I liked were the ones that had already been written for previous editions. I haven't looked at Vice yet, but i'm told it was disappointing, which I can unfortunately see based on recent releases.

I like Catalyst for cleaning up the rules. I'm not so enthused by their other work, however.



Really? I'd heard that Seattle 2072 was amazing. You're saying alot of it is Cut and pasted? Hurm.....
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