 CGL Speculation #5, It continues |
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 Apr 12 2010, 10:34 PM
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#201
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Old Man of the North  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,230 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463  |
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Apr 12 2010, 03:28 PM) I like the new moderator's voice colour. It's kinda hip, jazzy, almost gay. Not at all like that old, bold orange.
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Apr 12 2010, 10:59 PM
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#202
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 695 Joined: 2-January 07 From: He has here a minute ago... Member No.: 10,514 |
At this point in the game of selling roleplaying books, deciding whether or not to sell PDFs is about the same as waiting out to see if Edison or Tesla will come out on top with that whole "Electricity" business.
PDFs are a good way to supplement traditional sales and create additional revenue without going through traditional channels of distribution. It's a growing market and honestly represents the future. For my money I hope things go more toward the Eclipse Phase philosophy and less toward the iTunes style digital market place. DRM is a pox some industries are mad with. |
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Apr 12 2010, 11:00 PM
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#203
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Shiny Metal Kitty Head Group: Retired Admins Posts: 252 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Grand Rapids, MI Member No.: 146 |
QUOTE (pbangarth @ Apr 12 2010, 05:34 PM) I like the new moderator's voice colour. It's kinda hip, jazzy, almost gay. Not at all like that old, bold orange. I prefer the color of fire and brimstone. Matches the car, too. I like to accessorize, what can I say... But yes, please no personal attacks, allegedly deserved or not. |
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Apr 12 2010, 11:09 PM
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#204
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Being as this is the ninth page of the fifth thread, the runes say it is time I speak again.
Nobody is happy with this situation, Frank Trollman's gleeful tone aside. Whatever your personal opinion about the matters discussed in this and related threads, and the responses by CGL, Jason Hardy, and various freelancers, it is apparent that it is a bad situation. The exact degree may be a matter of debate for those interested in it, but without hard facts to go by we are left with the impression that it is a bad situation - and I would contend that despite the fact some checks have gone out, it has not yet gotten markedly better. Currently, our debate appears to be focused mainly on who is right and who is wrong. Frank Trollman's many accusations are unsupported by any official documentation, though ex-freelancers like myself can and have confirmed that his statements jive with what we know or have heard, and hit close enough to home to provoke a response from CGL. Frank has not yet (and, with being permanently banned, probably never will) revealed his source or sources, which many have criticized him for. Others have preferred to criticize those members of Dumpshock that feel entitled to know about the purely private or internal functions of the company, seeing their questions as presumptuous. In considering these matters, I believe what is right is honesty, and what is wrong is dishonesty. In that sense, I believe that nearly all of the people involved in this debate are in the right. There have been very few people on these threads that have posted under false pretenses, who have willingly endeavored to spread lies and misconceptions, or who have lied by not telling the whole truth. The freelancers (current and former), line developers, et al. have posted under their common handles and with fair expectation that their identities were known or could be discerned. Most people, whether they expressed support or disgust or distress, have done so openly and with every appearance of honesty. The veracity of Frank Trollman's claims may be doubted, but I do not think it can be doubted that he honestly believes them. Patrick Goodman dislikes the inquiry into CGL's private affairs, and I can sympathize. He is correct in that none of these matters is technically the affair of anyone not directly financially involved with the company, be they owners or freelancers. The "leaks" have certainly damaged the relationship between the management of CGL and the freelancers, and in some cases the relationship between CGL or members thereof and some of its fans. However, I ultimately believe Frank Trollman was right to post as he did. He was under no obligation to, and probably knew the furor that would result, but in the end it appears to be his decision that the truth of the matter as he knew it was important enough to the fanbase as a whole that it should be a matter for open discussion. If I am correct in my reasoning, I cannot rightly fault Frank for that, because Shadowrun is bigger than just Catalyst. If, as it appears from CGL's own statements, there is substantial mismanagement from the very top, and a desire to conceal it at the very top, and an acceptance and continued approval of the perpetrators of it at the very top, then I cannot see that being a positive thing for Shadowrun in the long term. I would honestly rather see Shadowrun under a new, hopefully more honest (or competent, if the financial mismanagement does turn out to be accidental) company than one which knowingly supports someone who makes such a mismanagement. I would (and have) cut ties rather than deal with people that accept and continue to work with such individuals. Some, like Bull, have a similar view. To him, Shadowrun is bigger than the company, and he wants to continue to be a part of Shadowrun. I can understand and respect that viewpoint, even if I don't share it. Which is all a very long way to say: at this point, there is nothing to do but wait and see. I would not ask anyone here to take what I say at face value, but I think I've made my biases clear. If there is any underlying motive, it is a desire that no one else need be warned, suspended, or banned due to these threads. As you post, I would ask you all to consider that we are all making our own judgments as to what is true and what is false, and respond with the understanding that the actual facts of the matter are currently few. We deal mainly with the effects and implications. |
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Apr 12 2010, 11:31 PM
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#205
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 425 Joined: 27-May 09 From: Evil's Nexus Member No.: 17,207 |
QUOTE (virgileso @ Apr 12 2010, 08:26 PM) nothing positive being done by the owner/perpetrator In your opinion. QUOTE (virgileso @ Apr 12 2010, 09:14 PM) A number of employees (freelancers included) are no longer working for the company Others continue on and new ones step forward. A guy is on the ledge of 40-story building, standing on the sidewalk is another fellow gleefully leading the chant 'jump, jump, jump'. I won't speak for others, but for me I have a great deal of empathy for the one on top of the building and no respect for the cheerleader. The posts had calmed down but somebody didn't feel that was to their benefit so they bring out the gas. So...I ask, what is your angle? What benefit do you reap if CGL folds? Are you a rep from another company that would like to see get the licenses? The best way for those who are owed money is for CGL to work their way out of the situation. This is not a job market that I would want to see people go looking for new employment in. Real people are having their lives upended and I feel for them. |
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Apr 12 2010, 11:38 PM
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#206
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
I think the freelancers and those who have left Catalyst should pool their resources and snatch the rights to publish Shadowrun products out from under them, even if it's a money loser that puts them so deep in the red that their grandchildren's grandchildren will be mired under it. Because I said so. The only support I will give them is the buying of products I like. C'mon, guys, do it for me! For ME!
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Apr 12 2010, 11:57 PM
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#207
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,139 Joined: 31-March 10 From: UCAS Member No.: 18,391 |
Unrealistic though. If one man can steal over half a million to close to a million dollars before it came out, the property has to be worth two or three times that. MINIMUM, so a few writers getting together would have to surpass that startup capital.
Not likely to happen. |
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Apr 13 2010, 12:02 AM
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#208
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 602 Joined: 2-December 07 From: The corner of Detonation Boulevard and Fascination Street Member No.: 14,464 |
Thats why i keep buying powerball tickets...175 million on wednesday and I can own the whole shooting match by friday! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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Apr 13 2010, 01:17 AM
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#209
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,359 Joined: 25-June 02 From: Vancouver, B.C., Canada (go Canucks!) Member No.: 2,904 |
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 12 2010, 03:57 PM) Unrealistic though. If one man can steal over half a million to close to a million dollars before it came out, the property has to be worth two or three times that. MINIMUM, so a few writers getting together would have to surpass that startup capital. Not likely to happen. I'm not interested in realistic. I'm interested in me! Perhaps they should get donations from people they know so that they can provide me with more official shadowrun products. |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:27 AM
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#210
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 01:28 PM) "Extreme embezzlement" is a very loaded term. Until you can come up with a definition that people can objectively agree to, I'm going to politely disagree that the term represents a cut-and-dry fact. I would also not put the claim of fraud into the cut and dry column. The fact that people leaked information shows that they are angry. I don't blame them for being angry; I'm angry too, at a wide number of things. That anger, though, does not "guarantee" that CGL will lose the Shadowrun license. It indicates that there are problems at CGL, which no one is disputing. That's why I've been on these boards frequently, talking to people, etc., to try to communicate what I can and relieve some of the tension that has cropped up to the best of my ability. I never said speculation was against the rules. I asked you not to do it because it doesn't help the situation and further inflames a situation that has already caused severe strain on a significant number of people. I'm sorry you find the request insulting; it was not intended as such. Then why don't you rebut his points? Use facts when you can, opinion where you can't. For example, his main argument is that Topps won't renew the license come May, no matter what, because CGL doesn't have the money and because of the ethical concerns. Why don't you list some positive points as to why you think CGL can (and should) keep the license? You can use both facts and opinion, although I'd ask you to separate the two, as has been asked of us. |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:30 AM
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#211
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 321 Joined: 4-April 08 From: Detroit, MI Member No.: 15,844 |
QUOTE (Bob Lord of Evil @ Apr 12 2010, 06:31 PM) The posts had calmed down but somebody didn't feel that was to their benefit so they bring out the gas. So...I ask, what is your angle? What benefit do you reap if CGL folds? Are you a rep from another company that would like to see get the licenses? I can name at least two: -The possibility for the freelancers and employees who decided to resign and to never work with CGL ever again to start working on Shadowrun again. A big part of the community likes them, and feel they should be working on some of the new products. We don't know what the new ones will be like, but there's a lot to lose and little to gain in the swap. -And not having someone who's very likely to have stolen almost a million dollars at the head of the publishing company. If CGL keeps the license, it brings a sort of safety: Shadowrun will continue being published. But it comes with a cost, because CGL has damaged itself and the license. |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:36 AM
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#212
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 595 Joined: 12-May 05 Member No.: 7,392 |
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 08:27 PM) Then why don't you rebut his points? Use facts when you can, opinion where you can't. For example, his main argument is that Topps won't renew the license come May, no matter what, because CGL doesn't have the money and because of the ethical concerns. Why don't you list some positive points as to why you think CGL can (and should) keep the license? You can use both facts and opinion, although I'd ask you to separate the two, as has been asked of us. Because I'm not playing "What if." I could list arguments, other people could counter them, and we could have a long debate that in the end would not involve the people who actually are making the decision. I'll leave the decision to Topps; in the meantime, I will keep working on products. Jason H. |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:45 AM
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#213
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 188 Joined: 26-August 05 Member No.: 7,622 |
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 09:36 PM) Because I'm not playing "What if." I could list arguments, other people could counter them, and we could have a long debate that in the end would not involve the people who actually are making the decision. I'll leave the decision to Topps; in the meantime, I will keep working on products. Jason H. Let me express my concerns. There are still Shadowrun books, which I haven't bought. If this license expires, then I might not be able to buy them. So the BIG question for me is: should I run out and buy them before the deadline? Right now, I have no guidance, so I'm not sure what to do. Can someone push me in the right direction? I have a cart full of Shadowrun stuff in my amazon cart. Now, my gut tells me that Catalyst will give up the Shadowrun license before they give up the Battletech license, but that's just my gut feel from what I have read here. |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:54 AM
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#214
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 595 Joined: 12-May 05 Member No.: 7,392 |
QUOTE (tweak @ Apr 12 2010, 08:45 PM) Let me express my concerns. There are still Shadowrun books, which I haven't bought. If this license expires, then I might not be able to buy them. So the BIG question for me is: should I run out and buy them before the deadline? Right now, I have no guidance, so I'm not sure what to do. Can someone push me in the right direction? I have a cart full of Shadowrun stuff in my amazon cart. Now, my gut tells me that Catalyst will give the Shadowrun license before they give up the Battletech license, but that's just my gut feel from what I have read here. I honestly wish I could give you specifics. Catalyst is working to retain both the Shadowrun and Battletech licenses. I don't know if Topps is thinking of separating them or not, but I have not heard anything from Catalyst management about keeping one and not the other. Both are important. I don't know what the timeframe for Topps making a decision is, but I will be certain to pass more information along when I have it. There are other variables to consider, such as what would happen to Catalyst-produced properties should a new company acquire the license, and I have absolutely no idea what would happen. Believe me, I really wish I could give more definite info. Jason H. |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:54 AM
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#215
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,076 Joined: 31-August 05 From: Rock Hill, SC Member No.: 7,655 |
The good news is if you go out and buy the books where the copyright has been withheld, Catalyst isn't actually getting any more money. Those are books that have already been sold to distributors and retailers. Once they're gone, they're gone. Catalyst already has their money. Might as well snatch them up while you can.
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Apr 13 2010, 01:56 AM
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#216
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 272 Joined: 5-April 10 Member No.: 18,416 |
From a complete nobody with no right to post on this subject. But, it never stopped me before, so...
AH is right. There's no factual basis for any of the statements made whether Trollman's or CGL's or anyone else. Obviously there's not going to be a grand inquiry from Topps and even if there was, we'll never hear about it. Thing is, the accusations being made are that people committed fraud, theft, and tax evasion, and furthermore that people posting on these boards continue to work for those people. None of us will likely ever know if this is true or not. Even if CGL looses the license, it won't prove anything. Short of a lien filed by the IRS, we'll never know. (And who's going to take the time to regularly datamine for that?) Some say that buying SR books is morally wrong. Others say that speculating about unknowables is wrong. Some say that posting anonymously is wrong. Some say that posting public information is wrong. Others say that revealing information is admirable. Given these accusations, I'm just not sure how personal attacks could possibly be avoided. It's a testament to the DS community that there haven't been more personal attacks. The moderators are doing an admirable job. That said, I don't think anyone should be surprised when more users are permabanned. It's entirely unavoidable given the subject. BTW- been away a bit. What'd Frank do to get permabanned this time? |
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Apr 13 2010, 01:59 AM
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#217
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 366 Joined: 10-November 08 Member No.: 16,576 |
QUOTE (tweak @ Apr 12 2010, 08:45 PM) Let me express my concerns. There are still Shadowrun books, which I haven't bought. If this license expires, then I might not be able to buy them. So the BIG question for me is: should I run out and buy them before the deadline? Right now, I have no guidance, so I'm not sure what to do. Can someone push me in the right direction? I have a cart full of Shadowrun stuff in my amazon cart. Now, my gut tells me that Catalyst will give up the Shadowrun license before they give up the Battletech license, but that's just my gut feel from what I have read here. How about this to help you tweak a) Do you like the direction that CGL has taken Shadowrun? (I personally do, but YMWV) b) What are the chances that if CGL does not retain the license that whom ever the new company is that picks it up will continue this direction or go in a radically new direction (ie d20 SR or worse...) If you like the current direction, and you think that the license won't stay with CGL, buy everything you don't currently have because the new direction might be horrible beyond belief. Or if you like the new, and you think that CGL might retain the license then you are just helping them out even if it's a minuscule amount. Or if you don't like the direction that the game has been going why would you buy anything for SR4 anyway (unless it's the settings books to use with SR1,2 or 3) By my logic it would be foolish to not buy anything because it might not be available in the future. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Apr 13 2010, 02:18 AM
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#218
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 05:36 PM) Because I'm not playing "What if." I could list arguments, other people could counter them, and we could have a long debate that in the end would not involve the people who actually are making the decision. I'll leave the decision to Topps; in the meantime, I will keep working on products. I'm not playing "What if" either. I'm giving you a chance to list several positive things about Catalyst, things we may not be aware of. Here's your opportunity to toot your own horn, so to speak, and tell us about the good things that happen where you work. Brag about products, if you like: "I can't tell you details, but War! has some high-quality material that I'm really proud of. It will blow your socks off." Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one. |
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Apr 13 2010, 02:24 AM
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#219
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
QUOTE (augmentin @ Apr 12 2010, 06:56 PM) BTW- been away a bit. What'd Frank do to get permabanned this time? You can read about it in the thread so dedicated in the News, Bug Reports, Feature Requests, & Discussion forum.
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Apr 13 2010, 02:31 AM
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#220
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,849 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Melbourne, Australia Member No.: 872 |
QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 12 2010, 07:57 PM) So it goes to the owners and, indirectly, to anyone with a permanent salary over there. So if I were to sit on my hands until the matter is settled, and publicly say "please settle this matter because I can't support a company which is failing to properly pay its creative people", that would be a good thing, even if it's only a tiny good thing. +1. I've been thinking this for awhile but I think its time I join the bandwagon. - J. |
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Apr 13 2010, 02:38 AM
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#221
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 595 Joined: 12-May 05 Member No.: 7,392 |
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 09:18 PM) I'm not playing "What if" either. I'm giving you a chance to list several positive things about Catalyst, things we may not be aware of. Here's your opportunity to toot your own horn, so to speak, and tell us about the good things that happen where you work. Brag about products, if you like: "I can't tell you details, but War! has some high-quality material that I'm really proud of. It will blow your socks off." Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one. Well, in the tags here is the 800-word article I recently wrote about Why Shadowrun Is Awesome Now. Have at it! [ Spoiler ] Jason H. |
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Apr 13 2010, 02:40 AM
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#222
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 272 Joined: 5-April 10 Member No.: 18,416 |
What're the chances of an unofficial DS survey of who should get or keep the license? This is an unbiased (moderators anyway - the rest of us are pretty well entrenched in our biases) forum of the most rabid fans of the game. If I were an executive at Topps, I'd like to know what the most vocal of my customer base thought. In corporate speak, you are the "alpha consumers" that advertisers and marketers so covet.
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Apr 13 2010, 02:45 AM
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#223
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 02:38 AM) Well, in the tags here is the 800-word article I recently wrote about Why Shadowrun Is Awesome Now. Have at it! I'm not saying this is why I left, but this is part of the self-aggrandizing crappola that I was tired of working with. You would not believe some of the self-congratulatory ass-patting for barely acceptable work. |
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Apr 13 2010, 02:46 AM
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#224
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 3-April 10 Member No.: 18,407 |
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 12 2010, 10:18 PM) I'm not playing "What if" either. I'm giving you a chance to list several positive things about Catalyst, things we may not be aware of. Here's your opportunity to toot your own horn, so to speak, and tell us about the good things that happen where you work. Brag about products, if you like: "I can't tell you details, but War! has some high-quality material that I'm really proud of. It will blow your socks off." Tell us the good side of Catalyst. If you don't, we're going to continue to assume that there isn't one. And how, pray tell, is the quality of an upcoming product in any way germane to deflecting concerns about license renewal? Anyone who is pumping Hardy for information about the imminent failure of CGL is not going to be appeased by the pimping of an upcoming product. Such information should be provided for its own reasons, not as some half-assed attempt at deflecting incessant inquiries. |
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Apr 13 2010, 02:49 AM
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#225
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 272 Joined: 5-April 10 Member No.: 18,416 |
Um, I predicted further permabans, but let's not rush into them. I miss Trollman's often acerbic commentary and would hate to loose your much politer insights, AH. Please don't go the personal attack route. We need you here on DS...
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 6th June 2025 - 01:50 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.