CGL Speculation #5, It continues Options

[emouse]

I wasn't trying to be funny. A page or two back someone suggested that since it's drawn from the common pot, the way to 'recoup' the money would be to increase his salary astronomically and let him 'pay it back'

Well if you go from (( Just an example)) $40,000 a year to $200,000 a year..

If they HAND you the $200,000 you CAN pay back $160,000.

That's what I picked up from the previous post of how they can 'cover' the blatant out right theft.

That's why I was asking for conformation that I was reading it right.

I don't know if you're referencing a post that I started and revised a few back, but I was asking if that graph represents ALL payments/draws to LLC, or draws OVER whatever his 'salary' or 'share' is supposed to be for the company. I don't know, and I'd like to know.

Assuming for a moment that the chart represents ALL payments to LLC over the indicated period, that would mean it includes valid paychecks or his take as an owner of the company. Up until mid-2007, the graph would seem to indicate someone who is being paid about $200,000 over the roughly 5 years shown in the graph, or about $40,000 a year. Depending on what contracts or provisions were in place, it would be possible for $200,000 to be conservative and the actual money that was legally his being in the $300,000 to $400,000 range. Which would also explain why the lower graph seems to highlight the questionable funds as being in the $300,000 range. But ALL of that is based on the premise that the graph represents ALL payments/transactions (valid AND invalid) made to LLC during that time span.

It's possible that chart represents only invalid transactions.

My ultimate point is that it's not clear. While it's a nicely done chart, I'm not clear on exactly what it represents. I'd be glad to have someone clarify it.

[emouse]

While I applaud your ability to think like a shadowrunner, for the sake of accuracy (heh) I do not believe there has been any indication that CGL is actually going to try and cover Loren's ass in that particular way.

The closest thing they'd be likely to do in that regard would be if the amount owed was paid down to a level where having LLC give up his ownership stake in IMR/CGL would cover the rest.

[emouse]

Is there any point in this quibbling over Frank? I mean honestly? He clearly stated what were facts and what were not.
...
You do not ~know~ how he came to his figure...

So you understand then why I take any of his claims with a big mound of salt?

[X-Kalibur]

So you understand then why I take any of his claims with a big mound of salt?

And yet they were pretty close, considering he was working with 2nd hand information, I think he deserves a pat on the back, not scorn.

But then, he has played the traditional role of the messanger bearing ill news well. He presented what he had, and was promptly lynched/burned/shot/buried. Way to play to the averages.

[emouse]

if you can manage to register, ask him here:
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50989&start=200
i tried two times, both failed because i get an error 111 could not connect to SMTP server, connection refused or something.

Yep, I got the same thing. Their registration system is broken. Could someone who is registered there ask if the chart represents ALL payments or draws to LLC (including any salary or other 'valid' payments), or if it represents only money taken beyond his normal salary?

Feel free to attribute the question to me if you want.

[Stahlseele]

Also, if someone is allready registered there: tell them their registration system sucks and they should fix it ._.

[emouse]

And yet they were pretty close, considering he was working with 2nd hand information, I think he deserves a pat on the back, not scorn.

There's a reason he apparently keeps getting banned in various forums, and it's not because of the times when he gives verifiable facts. It's the same reason that some people are not quite willing to pat him on the back.

He's far from being someone without an agenda and wearing a white hat in all of this, and so it Catalyst. The people who are leaking the information are doing so because they know his reputation, and they know he'll put it out there.

He's used statements by Jennifer to claim that RNB was directly involved in falsifying information. A claim that Jennifer herself refutes.

He's made some amusing assertions, such as the claim that the US revolution happened because England wasn't paying the colonies their freelancer fees.

When bringing possibly questionable information to public debate he feels justified by his own personal beliefs about right and wrong. At the same time Frank's ridiculed Randall for his statements about following his own personal beliefs about right and wrong in seeking a resolution to the missing funds.

And all in the name of blowing open a scandal that the the local paper in CGL's neck of the woods would maybe devote a paragraph mention to at most.

[virgileso]

I wasn't trying to be funny. A page or two back someone suggested that since it's drawn from the common pot, the way to 'recoup' the money would be to increase his salary astronomically and let him 'pay it back'

If that is a legal (if immoral) option, I wonder if that's what corporate executives are doing when they get a drastic pay raise or a golden parachute. It's hard for me to see CGL survive unless it either ties up even more of its resources by kicking out Coleman (does it even exist without him) and going through the year+ long legal process of squeezing him, or doing immoral 'tricks' while keeping Coleman in charge (correct me if I'm wrong on that assessment). Out of those two cases, I don't see why Topps would want CGL to have the license since they're either extremely hurting for money or its still run by someone who 'co-mingled' nearly a million dollars.

When it comes to actual facts, I largely trust Frank to be honest and even accurate, and he explains his conclusions from those facts in a fairly logical fashion. He's already explained his own motivation, and it's not one of pettiness or spite; and I only question a stated motivation for Truth when the revelation/accusation is obviously false. Maybe this is me projecting my love of Transmetropolitan.

[X-Kalibur]

I may not always agree with him, as he, like many med students I've met, seem to have complexes about being questioned on their veracity. But I will give him credit for generally being right, if a bit of a prick about it usually. People just need to learn to deal with people like that. Remember, when dealing with an asshole, make sure they aren't doing the same.

[graywulfe]

What a lot of people fail to understand is that while you may have the freedom of speech, you do NOT have the freedom to NOT be offended. You can however always ignore the offending person.

(NOTE: the 'you' in this sense is not you uspecifically Knasser, but the generic 'you', the reader.)

I hate this misconception. As an citizen of the USA I have the freedom of speech, meaning that my government can not prosecute me for things that I say(yes that's an oversimplification but it should suit for this purpose). As a poster on any given messageboard service, such as Dumpshock here, that may or may not be hosted in the USA, I have no such right, period. The moderators may in the generosity give me any degree of leeway they so choose, but they are not bound by the Constitution of the USA to grant me my freedom of speech on this messageboard.

Graywulfe

[urgru]

\Is there any point in this quibbling over Frank? I mean honestly? He clearly stated what were facts and what were not. You obviously have some sort of hard-on for taking shots at him for posting said information. You do not ~know~ how he came to his figure, so please do not "show work" in his stead, he can do that himself on other forums if people want to call him out.

We don't know how he calculated his figures, but we know that the fiscal and legal assertions he made are demonstrably false. Frank presented an ironclad set of outcomes/consequences; however, he's been shown woefully inaccurate re: the law (trifecta of error: criminal, civil and bankruptcy minsunderstandings) and accounting (see MindandPen's well-informed post). This calls into question the other bold-faced assertions he made.

There are clearly problems at Catalyst and it may end badly for the owners and freelancers. Ketjak's confirmed that; Jason's confirmed that; Catalyt's twitter feed confirms it. Given that we've got real people making credible statements, why do we even care what Frank has to say anymore?

All that said, bear in mind that his derisive comments re: individuals' religious convictions were the biggest (recent) factors in the ban, not any baiting of flaming from skeptics.

[X-Kalibur]

I'm not arguing with his deserving of a ban or not. That's not my place to judge and he clearly violated ToS repeatedly.

[kzt]

Um, no the ban was because he replied to a comment about how "you won't remember me from blah" with something that showed he did remember him and had felt the posters "wall of text" arguments made him despair about ever finding intelligent life on that site.

[urgru]

Um, no the ban was because he replied to a comment about how "you won't remember me from blah" with something that showed he did remember him and had felt the posters "wall of text" arguments made him despair about ever finding intelligent life on that site.

I said "biggest," not "only." His cheap shots re: Randall's religious motivations, in more than one post to more than one thread, weren't good for his account standing.

[otakusensei]

And all in the name of blowing open a scandal that the the local paper in CGL's neck of the woods would maybe devote a paragraph mention to at most.

Honestly, this forum is sort of CGL's neck of the woods. And I would say that the story is pretty major. To use your local metaphor, it's the mayor running away with most of the taxes and his second in charge covering him while half of city hall quits over the mess. That would make for some hard core journalism in my neck of the woods.

[kzt]

I said "biggest," not "only." His cheap shots re: Randall's religious motivations, in more than one post to more than one thread, weren't good for his account standing.

Yeah, he's a jerk about that kind of stuff.

[Pepsi Jedi]

$700,000 is still $700,000.

That's a lot of money.

Down playing it or acting like the difference of $100,000 either way invalidates the fact the fraker walked out with well over half a million bucks obfuscates the issue....

That he walked out with over half a million Dollars.

[The Monk]

$700,000 is still $700,000.

That's a lot of money.

Down playing it or acting like the difference of $100,000 either way invalidates the fact the fraker walked out with well over half a million bucks obfuscates the issue....

That he walked out with over half a million Dollars.

There's still the question of how much of that 700,000 was actually money that he was entitled to. Is this what "co-mingling" of funds meant?

[sirdoom]

Don't confuse anyone with wild speculations... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Reading the CBT-Forums, Frank personally stole the money to blame Mr. Coleman, destroy CGL and reach total world domination... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rollin.gif)

[Redjack]

Um, no the ban was because he replied to a comment about how "you won't remember me from blah" with something that showed he did remember him and had felt the posters "wall of text" arguments made him despair about ever finding intelligent life on that site.

Um, no. He got banned for yet another in an unending string of TOS violations. So let it lie and stop trolling for an argument about it.

[hermit]

$700,000 is still $700,000.

That's a lot of money.

In a world where a single bank departmwent can lose around $6.500.000.000 and nobody's heads roll over this? No. It is peanuts.

Also, the issue remains whether he actually had a contract with CGL over a salary (you know, for the full-time job with the company). IF he did, one may wonder whether these charts show his total takings or what he took minus what he was allowed to. Whether the charts only show what the folks at CGL know him stealing (how?) or whether it is any money Mr. Coleman ever took, including money the company owed him by contract, is an unknown. Hence, saying he took any given sum illegally is not substantiable.

IF he indeed would have a due on some 350K over the alleged time, then we'd only be looking at a $300K that vanished. That's still theft, but it's a sum one could maybe even get back from him in the mid-term forseeable future.

I am not saying this is the case. I am saying it may be. we do not know.

This is where Frank's facts turn out indeed to be ... tainted by his view of things and the chip on his shoulder with CGL. The man is no saint. Neither is he a demon. It'd be best we treat him as what he is - an unreliable, but nonetheless interesting source on this. Whatever he wrote should not be taken as absolute truth, but neither be outright dismissed. We ought to look at it in context with other info from non-Frank sources before making any judgement.

And right now, we lack enough additional information to even make a truly educated guess.

[Method]

The moderators may in the generosity give me any degree of leeway they so choose, but they are not bound by the Constitution of the USA to grant me my freedom of speech on this messageboard.

graywulfe is correct. In the context of the United States Constitution "Freedom of Speech" is meant to protect political speech in the public forum. Neither of those conditions apply on DS because a.) its not public and b.) political speech is expressly prohibited in the TOS.

(Now, some of the older mods can correct me if I'm wrong, but:)

Having said that, I will note that the default posture of the moderators is that we do not censor people (unless they are posting something illegal or horribly offensive; you will note that everything Frank has posted is still up and readily visible to anyone that cares to look), and we don't issue warnings unless the TOS are violated. Even then, there is great debate before any action is taken. Nothing is done unilaterally and almost nothing is done unanimously. The fact is that all most of us really care about is having a place to discuss our favorite game that isn't crawling with a-holes (and I direct that at no one in particular). Thats what the TOS are for. Within that framework, people can do whatever they want.

And certain mods pay for it all out of pocket. I'd say thats pretty generous.

[darthmord]

I hate this misconception. As an citizen of the USA I have the freedom of speech, meaning that my government can not prosecute me for things that I say(yes that's an oversimplification but it should suit for this purpose). As a poster on any given messageboard service, such as Dumpshock here, that may or may not be hosted in the USA, I have no such right, period. The moderators may in the generosity give me any degree of leeway they so choose, but they are not bound by the Constitution of the USA to grant me my freedom of speech on this messageboard.

Graywulfe

I did not post it as a misconception. I know very well that I post here at the leisure of the Dumpshock administration.

My point is that no one, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON has a right to NOT BE OFFENDED.

Unfortunately, many people who attack the messenger act as though they have the right to not be ofended. That was what I was driving at.

[Pepsi Jedi]

In a world where a single bank departmwent can lose around $6.500.000.000 and nobody's heads roll over this? No. It is peanuts.

Also, the issue remains whether he actually had a contract with CGL over a salary (you know, for the full-time job with the company). IF he did, one may wonder whether these charts show his total takings or what he took minus what he was allowed to. Whether the charts only show what the folks at CGL know him stealing (how?) or whether it is any money Mr. Coleman ever took, including money the company owed him by contract, is an unknown. Hence, saying he took any given sum illegally is not substantiable.

IF he indeed would have a due on some 350K over the alleged time, then we'd only be looking at a $300K that vanished. That's still theft, but it's a sum one could maybe even get back from him in the mid-term forseeable future.

I am not saying this is the case. I am saying it may be. we do not know.

This is where Frank's facts turn out indeed to be ... tainted by his view of things and the chip on his shoulder with CGL. The man is no saint. Neither is he a demon. It'd be best we treat him as what he is - an unreliable, but nonetheless interesting source on this. Whatever he wrote should not be taken as absolute truth, but neither be outright dismissed. We ought to look at it in context with other info from non-Frank sources before making any judgement.

And right now, we lack enough additional information to even make a truly educated guess.

No.. Don't do that. Don't compare a rpg company and one man stealing over half a million dollars to banks that deal with billions every day. Again that's trying to hide what it was.

The Median yearly income in the US is $26,036. Don't sit there and call it peanuts. Almost twenty eight TIMES the average yearly salary of a US person is not peanuts.

It's crap like this that pisses people off.

"Oh compared to those that lost billions. It's peanuts"

Yeah but here in the real world, with people involved he stole almost 28 times the yearly salary of working people. Look at the charts. Notice anything about the money stolen? How it ramps up so? How in the first 4 years it barely hit $200,000 then in the past year it's up to $726,000?

Don't sit there and call it peanuts or act like it's his salary. It's horrendous theft. They didn't give him a $500,000 raise. A HALF a million dollars in a year. Don't act like that's nothing. That's insulting to people out there buying their product.

[The Monk]

In a world where a single bank departmwent can lose around $6.500.000.000 and nobody's heads roll over this? No. It is peanuts.

Also, the issue remains whether he actually had a contract with CGL over a salary (you know, for the full-time job with the company). IF he did, one may wonder whether these charts show his total takings or what he took minus what he was allowed to. Whether the charts only show what the folks at CGL know him stealing (how?) or whether it is any money Mr. Coleman ever took, including money the company owed him by contract, is an unknown. Hence, saying he took any given sum illegally is not substantiable.

IF he indeed would have a due on some 350K over the alleged time, then we'd only be looking at a $300K that vanished. That's still theft, but it's a sum one could maybe even get back from him in the mid-term forseeable future.

I am not saying this is the case. I am saying it may be. we do not know.

This is where Frank's facts turn out indeed to be ... tainted by his view of things and the chip on his shoulder with CGL. The man is no saint. Neither is he a demon. It'd be best we treat him as what he is - an unreliable, but nonetheless interesting source on this. Whatever he wrote should not be taken as absolute truth, but neither be outright dismissed. We ought to look at it in context with other info from non-Frank sources before making any judgement.

And right now, we lack enough additional information to even make a truly educated guess.

Also it would seem that the management had the habit of withdrawing monies to pay freelancers and other contractors. How much of the monies went to paying someone, how much went into his pockets. Only a thorough audit of his records can reveal this. I doubt that Trollman has access to this.