CGL Speculation #5, It continues Options

[The Monk]

It's hard to start a small business. Long hours, uncertainty, not knowing when you'll get a return for your investment: going hungry, the stress alone can burn you out before long. Your inspiration, verve, and all your idealistic plans can go to the way side when glossy dreams become bitter reality.

Most of us have the potential to do what L.L. Coleman allegedly did. This does not excuse him. But the fault lies not only with him but also with the other owners for a business that allows the possibility that this could happen. It might have been convenient for them to allow open access to the company's resources, but in the end it was just laziness. Apathy, laziness, taking that easy money, you don't have to be evil to do these things.

Whether IMR/CGL will be producing our games in two months or whether its another company, my only hope is that whoever it is will learn from all of this, hell I have, if I'm ever in a position to start an LLC, commingling of funds is going to be one of my top concerns. "Whatever does not kill you makes you stronger" may be an over used cliche, but in this case IMR can actually be a better company if they survive.

Signed, Shadowrun fan, small business owner.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Noone put a gun to LLC's head and said 'Steal over $700,000 and build yourself a $650,000 mansion'

He didn't NEED that. He chose to steal it. That sort of theft might happen around the country and around the world but it's NOT par for the course. We do not have to accept it as a cost of doing business.

Sure and the alleged acts may be on the higher end of the corruption I am used to seeing. But truly honest people who don't lie, cheat, and steal in business are statistical anomalies IMO.

Also again I would advise against saying stealing though, it technically might not of been. But hey go ahead and be mad about it if you want, that part I agree with. I personally am not mad. Contextually though while I like the core 4e mechanic better than previous editions, the rest of the rules failed so heavily in implementing it for me I am not married to the Catalyst team and if they go under so be it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It's hard to start a small business. Long hours, uncertainty, not knowing when you'll get a return for your investment: going hungry, the stress alone can burn you out before long. Your inspiration, verve, and all your idealistic plans can go to the way side when glossy dreams become bitter reality.

Most of us have the potential to do what L.L. Coleman allegedly did. This does not excuse him. But the fault lies not only with him but also with the other owners for a business that allows the possibility that this could happen. It might have been convenient for them to allow open access to the company's resources, but in the end it was just laziness. Apathy, laziness, taking that easy money, you don't have to be evil to do these things.

Whether IMR/CGL will be producing our games in two months or whether its another company, my only hope is that whoever it is will learn from all of this, hell I have, if I'm ever in a position to start an LLC, commingling of funds is going to be one of my top concerns. "Whatever does not kill you makes you stronger" may be an over used cliche, but in this case IMR can actually be a better company if they survive.

Signed, Shadowrun fan, small business owner.

I can think up a shadowrun adventure based on some of this. Have a owner of a company who invested lets say for the adventure just as much capital into the company as the other owners. Have 1 owner busting his ass in the business while the others sit on a beach sipping your favorite Rhum beverages. Have the hard working owner slip into bitterness as the others reap in the same rewards he is, and he begins funneling extra money into his coffers because he "deserves it". End it with one side hiring shadowrunners to destroy the other owner/owners. Not that this is any way necessarily related to the current situation, but your post kind of sparked the idea with someone else post that Coleman was one of the owners who made this his full time job.

[DWC]

By the way, this reminded me that I need to get out of New Jersey. Around here, $650k isn't a mansion. It's a 4 bedroom, 2 or 3 bath, 2300 square foot detached single family house.

[BlueMax]

By the way, this reminded me that I need to get out of New Jersey. Around here, $650k isn't a mansion. It's a 4 bedroom, 2 or 3 bath, 2300 square foot detached single family house.

About the same here in the SF Bay, if you are not picky about school quality.

BlueMax

[nylanfs]

There's plenty of cheap house costs here in Elkhart, IN! <-- is trying to get more SR player/GM's in his area.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Hey Jason. Any word on the books and when they might be ok to buy again? I'm looking to buy Vice tomorrow. I'd much rather buy the PDF at this juncture than the hard copy off ebay, but if it's going to be weeks or longer I'll go ahead and buy on the secondary market.

[Jyster]

Im kinda curious why the warehouse guy was fired? If he was a scapegoat or just didnt do his job right. If he was a scapegoat, then thats not cool.

[JM Hardy]

Hey Jason. Any word on the books and when they might be ok to buy again? I'm looking to buy Vice tomorrow. I'd much rather buy the PDF at this juncture than the hard copy off ebay, but if it's going to be weeks or longer I'll go ahead and buy on the secondary market.

It shouldn't be much longer. I hope to have definitive news within the next 10 days or so.

Jason H.

[spasheridan]

I'll chime in and say that Jason is acting quite reasonably in his position as a spokesperson for CGL. He is being as open as he can be, avoiding topics that he can't or shouldn't or wont respond to - while admitting that he is avoiding being specific about those topics.

That's not to say I agree with the actions at CGL, but as a long time shadowrun fan I'm content to use the products I have and when new products emerge that I find interesting I will purchase them. In the grand scheme of things (alleged) embezzlement is a smaller crime than the crimes that occur every day to secure oil to power our cars here in the US(see Nigeria, Iraq, etc). If you drive a car or purchase any product that's been shipped anywhere in the world you really don't have a leg to stand on for your ethical objections / boycott of CGL.

Doesn't make this LLC fellow someone I would lend money to though.

[BishopMcQ]

Hey folks--

I've been approached by several people so far, and thought I'd go ahead and make the public announcement. I am no longer working as the Production Manager for Catalyst Game Labs. My reasons for leaving were not related to the current events being speculated about in this thread. I have previously chosen to remain a very quiet member of the community on these arguments. That choice will still stand.

There are innumberable factual inaccuracies in all of the arguments and it is not my place to clarify each of them.

I have asked this before, both publically on DSF and in private conversations with several people, but will do it one more time. Owners - please remember that you have your own methods of communincating with each other and that airing the dirty laundry of either side of your debate is not helping anyone. BT crew - I respect your position, and fully understand the frustration that you are feeling (I met weekly with Herb and he is your biggest advocate, so trust me when I say this), but coming to DSF just to slam on the SR folks isn't going to help mend the fractures within our freelancing community.

Everyone, please take a deep breath, look at the world from your perspective, their perspective, and the perspective of the few of us caught in the middle. After doing that, post. You can keep your ire, your personal emotions, everything that you feel, but post in a constructive manner rather than one which ends up getting people banned.

Thank you,
-Stephen

[Pepsi Jedi]

It shouldn't be much longer. I hope to have definitive news within the next 10 days or so.

Jason H.

Thank you for the reply. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hard copy it is. I'll look at picking up the PDF for the Ipad when they become available again. Thanks.

[Cthulhudreams]

Most likely he would not. Based on my experience, such actions would draw the attention of the IRS and the SEC. The results of those investigations would determine the change in share value, which would determine the shareholders votes on keeping the individual.

What? If in your role as an employee you mingled personal and company funds, then could not account for the company funds, you'd be criminally charged with the crime of "Theft as a Servant"

For which you would then be fired.

In Australia anyway.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Yeah here in the US you "Should" be fired and go to jail... The "why's" this hasn't happened, seem to be equally tied up in "it'd destroy the company the way it's set up" and "He's gonna pay it back, really!" sort of things.

That being said. We do not "KNOW" why he hasn't been fired and the other owners have him arrested. That would be pure speculation.

We just know that he's not been, fired, nor arrested.

[MindandPen]

What? If in your role as an employee you mingled personal and company funds, then could not account for the company funds, you'd be criminally charged with the crime of "Theft as a Servant"

For which you would then be fired.

In Australia anyway.

Loren L Coleman is an owner. So in the example of a public company, it would be the equivalent of a member of the board, or a senior executive. The mingling of funds is not in and of itself usually illegal (IANAL) but the inability to account for it that would be the problem.

-M&P

[Cthulhudreams]

Loren L Coleman is an owner. So in the example of a public company, it would be the equivalent of a member of the board, or a senior executive. The mingling of funds is not in and of itself usually illegal (IANAL) but the inability to account for it that would be the problem.

-M&P

Yes, if you did that as a part owner, you'd be facing charges re: your relationship with the other stockholders. Pass through corporations in Australia are set up differently from the US though, but with the closest possible arrangement, LLColeman's actions would carry one of a number of criminal charges depending on exactly the terms of the founding agreement were.

To use your examples, a senior executive would be charged with theft as a servant - and as LLColeman can be an employee and an owner

[nemafow]

What? If in your role as an employee you mingled personal and company funds, then could not account for the company funds, you'd be criminally charged with the crime of "Theft as a Servant"

For which you would then be fired.

In Australia anyway.

Our laws in Aussieland different, isn't our 'jail for life' like 25 years instead of 'life' or something (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ?

[Method]

We have that silliness in the US too. Maybe it originates in British Common Law perhaps?

[augmentin]

IANAL

<Insert Beevis and Butthead giggle>

Sorry, couldn't resist. Of course, I have a lot of respect for the posts you made here and what you've added.

[nemafow]

We have that silliness in the US too. Maybe it originates in British Common Law perhaps?

Oh really? I wasn't aware, I thought the sillyness was constrained to just us

[tweak]

Are you serious? Sending a guy who has mingled personal and corporate funds, and who people claim has not paid the royalities Topps was due, to Topps is their best bet to get the license?

Would you trust Coleman at this point? Would anyone?

Would you want your license, and therefore your money, trusted to Coleman?

These are great questions, but the guy hasn't been convicted of anything. The worse case is that Topps audits CGL and Topps' auditors reach the conclusion that CGL would have problems being a going concern. This would potentially be enough of a red flag for Topps to consider not renewing the license. But corporate relationships do matter. If Coleman can convince Topps that he can fix his sinking ship, then they might renew the license.

If folks are completely against CGL having the licenses going forward, then write to Topps and tell their senior management why the renewal is a bad idea. Letters do matter. Otherwise, I suspect that Topps will renew it based on the relationship that CGL has with Topps, assuming the audit report is not too harsh.

[Cthulhudreams]

Theft as a Servant is from british common law, although now it's part of the crimes act of 19XX in Australia anyway.

[Method]

I was referring to the 25 year "life sentence", but I'm sure we have an equivalent of "Theft as a Servant" too.

[augmentin]

(Given the post I just made, take the following [as opposed to everything else on dumpshock] with a grain of salt: )

There's been a lot of discussion here of ethics. Is it ethical to work for someone who stole money? Is it ethical to buy product from a company that lies to it's business partners? Is it ethical to steal a little money, but not a lot? Is it ethical to steal money that you are owed or feel you deserve? Is it ethical to post private information in a public forum? Is it ethical to post public information in a public forum? Do you have the right to be offended? What is the nature of free speech on a public, but privately owned forum? How much of a right to information does an employee have? How much of a right to information does a consumer have? Of course none of these questions that are not yet settled in academia will be settled here.

That we're all so concerned about ethics in the creation and consumption of a game about steel and killing people for money, I think speaks to the cathartic nature of Shadowrun.

AH said he's been a dick to JMH. There's been a lot of dickery here and I appreciate his public confession. (Thank you.) There's really no excuse for the general dickishness that's taken place and I've contributed as well.

I've been trying to figure out what bothers me about this whole mess (besides the obvious human element as personified by Tiger Eyes). If you'll permit me to overly generalize, the two extremes in this debate are represented by JM Hardy and FrankTrollman. Both of them have used essentially the same argument: I know more than you do, trust me, but I'm not telling you what or how I know. Both of them have been vilified for this, and both of them feel justified in their actions. The only real difference I see is that JM Hardy is capable of not imploding into a ball of internet hate when someone disagrees with him, while FrankTrollman is not. In other words, they've used identical arguments, but JM Hardy is polite about it. Personality goes a long way.

Now, to say that because of this politeness we must stop questioning him or speculating is not a strong argument. JM Hardy is here in an official capacity as a PR spokesman of a corporation. He's been compared to Tariq Aziz, the Iraqi minister of information under Sadam Hussein. This is clearly unfair. While it certainly sounds like Loren L Coleman is not a moral person, he has not used chemical weapons on his own people or buried 30,000 people in a mass grave. It would me more fair to compare JM Hardy's current role to the White House press secretary. He's done a good job for his employers. He and his employer may chose to withhold information and that is entirely within their right. As has been pointed out more eloquently than I could, we are not entitled to his information. But it remains entirely within our right to continue to ask for it. As it is entirely within our right to form opinions, positive or negative, based on the company he represent's lack of forthrightness.

In other words, while some of what FrankTrollman originally said has sense been corroborated by other sources, including company owners, much of it has not. I remain skeptical because I don't trust anonymous sources. If you want to say something, don't use FrankTrollman. Man up and say it.

By the same token, I remain skeptical of much of what JM Hardy has said in his official capacity as a CGL spokesperson. (Emphasis added, because this is not a commentary on him as a person, only the role he is currently playing.) Citing unnamed owners, "titans of industry", lawyers, and CPAs without revealing who or what they've said leaves me distrustful. Again, we have no right to this information, but it's a bit dubious to bring it up without any supporting material. You can either "no comment" or respond to the question, but the middle ground CGL is asking JM Hardy to walk is not any more tenuous than FrankTrollman and his anonymous source(s?).

[MindandPen]

Oh really? I wasn't aware, I thought the sillyness was constrained to just us

Life is usually 30 years, used to calculate parole. Then there is "Life without the possibility of parole" which is "until you're room temperature".

-M&P