CGL Speculation #5, It continues Options

[Method]

Non-consensus voices were banned, remember? Agreement does not take precedence over being right for some of us.

The irony here is that most people have no idea of the deliberation that goes on behind the scenes before the mods make an officail action. Yep. We're all about consensus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Bull]

Plus, Freedom of Speech on the internet is a fallacy. You only have as much freedom as the owners of each site allow you to have.

[Stahlseele]

OK, just curious:
How is this hole thing going to affect US here on Dumpshock?
If we take a look at the Disclaimer at the Bottom of the Board-Page it reads:

WizKids, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. WizKids, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.

If the License is lost by CGL, then does this still apply?

[Rotbart van Dain...]

It's dated anyway, since Topps chopped up WizKids, kept the flesh and sold the bones to dance elsewhere.

[DireRadiant]

For information? Yes. I'd rather trust information coming from a forum with heated discussion, than something I have to suspect is heavily censored, or only frequented by people of one opinion.

Going back through 7 years your heavily censored forums have removed
45 threads total
which are composed of
13 Porn sites
13 Duplicate Topics
13 Discussions initiated on topics listed in ToS
6 Threads with more then 10 posts that went off the deep end with multiple really nasty ToS violations and totally inappapropriate posts that put the CGL speculations threads to shame (And I did check them, my eyes bleed)

[The Dragon Girl]

dont duplicate topics usually get merged instead of removed?

[OneTrikPony]

13
13
13
and 6
?
wow, that's quite a cooincidence.

Um... can I get a list of those porn sites?
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) j/k

So in ten days we'll have official information about when PDFs of Vice and Seattle will be available again?

Are there going to be any substantial changes from the original print runs when they're released?

[Elixir]

Despite the deliberation, despite those that are for and against what the banned person spoke of, despite everything, you (the moderators) chose to ban a person who only voiced what some others are thinking. You silenced a vocal person in the debate that has spawned not 1, but 5 threads (more if you consider the ban posts.) I understand moderation and I understand the stances on free speech, but you have silenced the opposition based on a very dicey TOS violation. Do what you will, but by censoring a person that gave information on a rather large portion of one side of the debate, you have thrown your towel in for the Status Quo. So now it has come down to a bunch of people sitting around and tossing ideas and speculation around without a source of information from one side of the situation, without his regurgitation of information from his source, you have squelched any retort or response.

The post he used that lead to his banning was a response to the other person acknowledging that he had a "disagreement" on another forum with him. If you don't want to hear the truth, don't bring up the subjects you are afraid to broach. Without seeing the so called deliberation that the moderators claim, I can only think that he was silenced based on ill feelings being held by people of authority here on Dumpshock.

Dumpshock is a forum full of fans. Fans for the game of Shadowrun. Granted, by playing Shadowrun, we are all subjected to some storylines of deceit and foul play, and sometimes I think that can wheedle its way into our view of the real world. I believe that the truth lies in between the two sides. I don't think we will ever know the true story behind what has happened, and I am sure, that for the most part, this forum has absolutely no right to know the full truth. Yes, some members of this forum have a stake in the truth, but not all and not neccessarily should the truth be laid bare on these pages.

If we, as Dumpshock readers, cannot discuss the game, the situation, or the debate, without fear of being banned or censured, then what kind of debate is it?

The true victim here, is the game property. My personal feeling is that, with Loren L Coleman doing the negotiation for the renewal, CGL and IMR might have a chance to retain the publishing rights, and that is a win win for the SR community. What happens after Coleman's usefulness to the organization after this, is hopefully handled with much care and consideration. I just hope his actions up to this point doesn't put nails in the coffin of one of my most favorite games systems.

[Adam]

How is this hole thing going to affect US here on Dumpshock?

It isn't, Stahseele.

[Stahlseele]

It isn't, Stahseele.

Thanks you, then i don't really need to care anymore.
I don't get to play much anyway, and this here has become way more important to me than the actual game in itself.

[The Dragon Girl]

Sounds like people are finally starting to make sense? All the intentional Negativity over the Dumpshock forums really is not something
I like seeing. I would rather hang around the Battletech forums, as there it is more like the interactions of friends then here, where sometimes it
seems more like Desolation Angels verses Bug Spirits. And this is the face you guys want to show new players coming here for information?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) well some people like conflict and see it as a healthy expression of active minds.

Seriously though, you can disagree and debate without stooping to personal insults and flaming.

Something the US politicians have actually forgotten, but hey...


Playing nice does not mean agreeing with each other (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) it just means being polite about it.


..I think I might have lost track of what I was attempting to say here >.>;

[DireRadiant]

dont duplicate topics usually get merged instead of removed?

Ideally, but for example if I was asked to do that I might not have a clue and I might simply remove the empty duplicate Topic.

[The Dragon Girl]

Aha, makes sense.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Ideally, but for example if I was asked to do that I might not have a clue and I might simply remove the empty duplicate Topic.

You know, you always can create topics in the internal mod forums to learn how to use the board software.

well some people like conflict and see it as a healthy expression of active minds.

Seriously though, you can disagree and debate without stooping to personal insults and flaming.

Something the US politicians have actually forgotten, but hey...

Ah… time for that signature.

[The Dragon Girl]

..Am I the only person who thinks that if someone comes in here pointing fingers at our moderators and making accusations, they should at least have posted more than once ever?

[Elixir]

..Am I the only person who thinks that if someone comes in here pointing fingers at our moderators and making accusations, they should at least have posted more than once ever?

And yet my account has been around longer than you. Just because I haven't posted up until this point doesn't mean I haven't been around.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Am I the only person who thinks that if […]

Statistically speaking, it's not that likely… for any opinion.

[The Dragon Girl]

What does the amount of time registered have to do with it? If the only thing you've ever contributed is a single post accusing someone of wrong doing, what sort of impression does that make? We don't know you, we have no basis for comparison with how you normally act, what your opinions are, who you are. Except that you accuse the moderators of censorship, when they ban someone whos been warned over and over again and given many chances and knew exactly what they were doing and what would likely happen.

I am grateful to Trollman for bringing us the information.

I do not think that that gives him leeway to act the way he was.

Hes a grown man, I'm very certain he can take care of himself, and accept the consequences of his own actions.

[Elixir]

What does the amount of time registered have to do with it? If the only thing you've ever contributed is a single post accusing someone of wrong doing, what sort of impression does that make? We don't know you, we have no basis for comparison with how you normally act, what your opinions are, who you are. Except that you accuse the moderators of censorship, when they ban someone whos been warned over and over again and given many chances and knew exactly what they were doing and what would likely happen.

I am grateful to Trollman for bringing us the information.

I do not think that that gives him leeway to act the way he was.

Hes a grown man, I'm very certain he can take care of himself, and accept the consequences of his own actions.

And you sit here attacking me of posting my opinion. I guess I have to have a 140 posts in order for my opinion on the forums to matter. I posted what I thought of the Frank Trollman banning. and I posted what I thought of the rampant speculation that is going on. and what I thought of the situation. If you don't like it, gnore it. If you think I shouldn't have any weight in discussions, perhaps you think new posters shouldn't be on this forum...

this exact response to my opinion is very indicative of why I have only lurked.

People here have an elevated opinion of their own beliefs. very well. I will not post here. You win, how petty of you!

Should I also note that you attacked me based on my newness here?

[The Dragon Girl]

Honey, you are -very- defensive, and seem to be looking for a fight. Contrary to your angered accusation I was not attempting to get you to post less, if you will read more carefully, I was attempting to get you to post more. I believe its fair, that if someone is going to throw around accusations, that we have some idea of who this person is, where they stand, the measure of their character, if you will.

[Elixir]

Honey, you are -very- defensive, and seem to be looking for a fight. Contrary to your angered accusation I was not attempting to get you to post less, if you will read more carefully, I was attempting to get you to post more. I believe its fair, that if someone is going to throw around accusations, that we have some idea of who this person is, where they stand, the measure of their character, if you will.

No, your attempt was to discredit me as a poster because I have not posted in the past. If you disagree, then disagree, but don't assume because I defend myself, that I am trying to be combative. If you want me to post, don't come out and claim that I shouldn't post what I feel because I haven't posted before. that is counterproductive to your claimed goals.

[Redjack]

If we, as Dumpshock readers, cannot discuss the game, the situation, or the debate, without fear of being banned or censured, then what kind of debate is it?

I don't see anyone getting banned for discussing any of the above, only for personal attacks and perhaps a little trolling/flaming.

EDIT: Hell, even warnings during this have been few and light.

[Patrick Goodman]

Despite the deliberation, despite those that are for and against what the banned person spoke of, despite everything, you (the moderators) chose to ban a person who only voiced what some others are thinking. You silenced a vocal person in the debate that has spawned not 1, but 5 threads (more if you consider the ban posts.) I understand moderation and I understand the stances on free speech, but you have silenced the opposition based on a very dicey TOS violation. Do what you will, but by censoring a person that gave information on a rather large portion of one side of the debate, you have thrown your towel in for the Status Quo. So now it has come down to a bunch of people sitting around and tossing ideas and speculation around without a source of information from one side of the situation, without his regurgitation of information from his source, you have squelched any retort or response.

The TOS violation that they nailed Frank for was just the straw that broke the camel's back. He's got a history of major TOS violations going back a number of years, and he'd been warned more than once about TOS violations on this topic alone. They didn't silence based on one dicey TOS violation (which, FWIW, I tend to agree was pretty lame compared to some of his other stunts in the same thread); hell, they didn't even silence him, if you want to get down to it. They banned him from their forums based on a long history of causing trouble, deliberately and with malice aforethought, on these forums.

[The Dragon Girl]

No, your attempt was to discredit me as a poster because I have not posted in the past. If you disagree, then disagree, but don't assume because I defend myself, that I am trying to be combative. If you want me to post, don't come out and claim that I shouldn't post what I feel because I haven't posted before. that is counterproductive to your claimed goals.

Honey I don't have to 'discredit' you, and I'm not attacking you. It is a personal feeling of mine that someones first post should not be one which is an attack against someone else.

In my mind its like.. say you had a group of gamers that liked to meet in the evenings at a cafe, and as is their nature they often get into debates. Over and over again you see one getting very personal and angry and yelling, and eventually after asking him many times to calm down, hes asked to leave.
Another patron of the cafe observes this person leaving and comes over to the group to tell them they suck, they've never spoken to this person before, they don't know who he is, hes just someone who also sat in the cafe and liked to listen in on their conversations.

Its ..simply not the best first impression, and doesn't hold the same impact as it would if said person had been a part of the group, and they knew who he was.

You certainly do have a right to your opinion, and a right to express it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I have a right to disagree with you, and to think that thats a terrible first post, and hope that future encounters are more pleasant.

[The Dragon Girl]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) heading out to celebrate my anniversary now, you guys have fun.