Hacking programs over Rating 6, Do they exist? Options

[Belvidere]

My group has recently found itself in a debate over whether or not you can make/buy hacking or even common use programs beyond rating 6. Our hacker says that he saw the ruling for it somewhere in Unwired, but we've yet to find it. I was hoping Dumpshock might be able to shed a bit of light on our little problem. If they do exist, can someone give me a page reference, because we're all baffled. Thanks a billion!

-Belvidere

[Red-ROM]

its mentioned in the fluff somewhere that military and megacorps possess programs of 7 +

It's left to the descretion of the GM and should be reserved for epic story arcs or seriously rich and experienced characters. I think it's mostly used for the hacker with all rating 6 programs trying to hack the UCAS govornment and the gm hits them with the rating 8 black IC and rating 12 firewall etc.

Edit: this is my 666th post, creepy huh

[Belvidere]

Glad to know that your demonic post was the first reply in my topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Thanks for the info too!

[SpellBinder]

Here's the "fluff":

Although normal programs are only commercially available to a maximum rating of 6, cutting edge software with a rating of 7 or higher does exist. So called military-grade or prototype software is usually used and distributed only among governmental and military spiders, special unit hackers (like GOD or ARM agents), or the operatives of the megacorporations that develop these programs.

To prevent military programs from leaking into the shadows and black markets, copies of these programs are closely monitored. Use or loading of these programs is often restricted by biometric identification or the use of Limitation or Timer program options.

It is rumored that some agencies and corporations purposely infect these programs with special viruses that leave dormancy as soon as the software is transferred to a different commlink or computer system in order to wreak havoc on those systems, delete the software, and/or report its location to its originators.

The gamemaster designs exactly when and where to include such potent programs in his campaign. They should be rare at best, and finding, stealing, or otherwise acquiring such software could be an adventure unto itself—not to mention keeping it.

[Udoshi]

There's also a quote somewhere in unwired about certain critical and/or permanent nodes having statistics above rating 6 as well. Nexi already kind of break some of the limits(subscriptions and programs), but I wouldn't be surprised if, say, the Gridguide system had a firewall of seven or eight.

[Garou]

There's also a quote somewhere in unwired about certain critical and/or permanent nodes having statistics above rating 6 as well. Nexi already kind of break some of the limits(subscriptions and programs), but I wouldn't be surprised if, say, the Gridguide system had a firewall of seven or eight.

I don't think it does, because in Arsenal it says Gridguide is hacked all the time, but it´s security hackers are good. And it's sister system, Gridlink, has only a device rating of 3 by RAW, so i'd place its Node Statistics (except response of course) as 4-5 tops. Gridguide is clearly not a milispec system to receive rating 6 defenses, it is a security system at most.

[Belvidere]

I don't think it does, because in Arsenal it says Gridguide is hacked all the time, but it´s security hackers are good. And it's sister system, Gridlink, has only a device rating of 3 by RAW, so i'd place its Node Statistics (except response of course) as 4-5 tops. Gridguide is clearly not a milispec system to receive rating 6 defenses, it is a security system at most.

Agreed, if Gridguide was sitting on rating 6 defenses my hacker has broken plenty of rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) With the help of gridguide I've setup plenty of tails and traces on live people by jumping between gridguide nodes. But from my experience, my GM has started buffing gridguide cause he's gotten a bit sick of me using it so much, mostle their hackers are starting to turn into prime runners, or he's rolling really lucky.

[Summerstorm]

Well. The Requirements for an UV-Host is Response and System at least 10... and i don't know where i read it (may be unofficial?) But the Züricher Orbital consists of 15 chained Rating 12 nexi... right? As i remember the programs on there weren't that high though (about 8-9).

But if i see it there: a highrated AI can easily run optimized rating 15+ programs on a souped-up comercial Nexus if it took the time to program such things. Technomancers can thread their crap insanely high as well. (Oh how i hate those buggers) And the rules for programming their own stuff pretty much allow for all ratings in a reasonable timeframe.

One could think that a master programmer with assistants, a programming suite and a programming environment can churn out such a program (I would say rules of -1 dice for long tests are clearly in order here, though) in half a year or so. So the Fluff and the rules are not really that consistant for me. I would say:

1 - Toys for scriptkiddies and grandma's
2 - For the poor
3-5 - Cheap but ok for most tasks
6 - Hacker stuff
7-9 - Achievable but rare high-end products
10-12 - HOLY cow Don't point that at me. I don't really WANT to know where you got it
13-15 - yeah ok, we go in and steal one of eight billion

[Dixie Flatline]

There are no specific rules preventing a hacker from whipping up 7+ rating programs. In fact, using optimization attributes, it's entirely possible to run a rating 12 program on a store-bought commlink.

If you have 10-20k nuyen to rent the development environment time, and you use some programming software, it takes about 2 months to create a rating 12 program.

Then, according to RAW, that program is updated, for free, automatically, forever.

[SpellBinder]

UV Node requirements?

The construction of a UV node requires state-of-the-art components and software with dedicated support systems, and is no light undertaking. The minimum Response and System ratings needed is 10, representing a pinnacle of processing ability and an OS customized and optimized for high-resolution graphic displays, physics, and other details of a realistic virtual environment.

To fully experience a UV node, a user must be running with hot sim. Accessing such a node with AR or cold sim VR is underwhelming, and simply misses out on the node’s potential (similar to a normal node in these regards). Many UV nodes, however, are configured to block AR and cold sim users.

There's more on that page as well, some nice and rather nasty bits that make UV nodes all the ambrosia in a viper's nest you could want.

[Yerameyahu]

Why exactly would that program get updates, Dixie?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why exactly would that program get updates, Dixie?

Per Unwired, Self-Coded Programs do not degrade...

Of Course, not everyone agrees upon that..

Keep the Faith

[SpellBinder]

Actually, self coded software does degrade:

In game terms, illegal and pirated software—and also programs that a character has coded himself (p. 118)—degrade over time, reflecting that the program is slowly becoming outdated. Hacking and malware programs degrade at the rate of 1 rating point per month; all other programs degrade 1 rating point per 2 months.

To circumvent or prevent degradation of their utilities, hackers have three options. First, skilled hackers with programming resources can patch programs (see Patching, p. 118) on their own. Second, those that have connections to warez sites can go looking for an updated pirated copy. Third, daredevil hackers of course always have the option of hacking the corporate patching nodes directly to steal the patch for themselves and their contacts.

On the plus side, a hacker with that bleeding edge rating 12 program can spend one week every month or two (depending on if it's a hacking program or not) to perform a Software + Logic test to keep that program at a rating of 12. Since it's self coded, said hacker doesn't need to crack the program for the source code as he/she will already know it.

As noted under Legal vs. Pirated Software, p. 108, illegal software does not receive regular updates from the manufacturer and so suffers from rating degradation. A hacker can still upgrade a program on his own, however, a process known as patching. In order to patch a program, the hacker must have the source code for it (acquired by cracking it, see Source Code and Piracy, p. 228, SR4, and Piracy, p. 94). Patching requires a regular programming Extended Test for that software type using Software + Logic and an interval of 1 week. In place of rating, however, use the difference between the degraded rating and the regular rating of the program.

[Yerameyahu]

We're having a duplicate of this discussion in another thread, but the result is the same: *of course* it degrades, and if your reading of the errata says otherwise, you'd have the house rule the degradation back in anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

We're having a duplicate of this discussion in another thread, but the result is the same: *of course* it degrades, and if your reading of the errata says otherwise, you'd have the house rule the degradation back in anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Just out of a morbid sense of curiousity, why would you think that?

Keep the Faith

[Belvidere]

But if i see it there: a highrated AI can easily run optimized rating 15+ programs on a souped-up comercial Nexus if it took the time to program such things. Technomancers can thread their crap insanely high as well. (Oh how i hate those buggers) And the rules for programming their own stuff pretty much allow for all ratings in a reasonable timeframe.

Don't your complex forms have a max rating of your resonance? And if you thread higher than that you start taking physical from fading, right? So by spending the karma and getting you resonance high enough, there really isn't a cap for how high you can technically get a CF.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Don't your complex forms have a max rating of your resonance? And if you thread higher than that you start taking physical from fading, right? So by spending the karma and getting you resonance high enough, there really isn't a cap for how high you can technically get a CF.

In theory, that is very true... Much Like Mages, Technomancers have an effectively unlimited advancement for their Resonance... And though it is theoretically unlimited, practically, you won't probably ever see a Technomancer go much above an 8 or 9... Our Technomancer has almost 300 Karma, has 5 Submersion Grades and still only has a Resonance of 7... That stuf is EXPENSIVE...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Because, Tymeaus, then you'd be getting all your programs for free, better than pirated, open source, cracked, or legit, right? *shrug* It's just me, but it wouldn't make any sense, mechanically or by the fluff. No tricky logic, just my sense of balance. That's all.

[Banaticus]

It's possible that some people are mixing up hackers and technomancers, since complex forms don't degrade.

A hacker's rating 12 hacking program degrades. A technomancer's rating 12 hacking complex form never degrades.

[Dixie Flatline]

We're having a duplicate of this discussion in another thread, but the result is the same: *of course* it degrades, and if your reading of the errata says otherwise, you'd have the house rule the degradation back in anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pretty much this. I can't find it in my copy of unwired right now, but it says somewhere specifically that code you write maintains itself automatically.

I don't feel like finding it. I want to forget it existed.

On the up shot, it means that you can have a theoretical maximum of 4 programs you've written for yourself. However, that leaves you with zero time to do anything else with your life, since you're coding for 8 hours a day during your week long interval. So let's say reasonably you're looking at 1-3 programs, most likely 1-2 that you've coded and maintain.

[SpellBinder]

This might fall to GM's discretion per the errata, but...

Take a drone with the right hardware and give it the Profession autosoft for the Software skill (Arsenal, page 114; it allows one Technical skill & Software is a Technical skill). As long as it's Pilot + [Profession] pool is at least 4 it can buy that one hit to patch a program that's degraded by one rating. Theoretically, one drone could keep patching four programs for you each month, three if you assign it to patch its own Pilot and Profession software if they're not legal.

[hermit]

They could also churn out the programs for you if you cluster enough good hardware together and have a bunch of agents + coding skillsofts in there doing teamwork.

[Harbin]

Sounds like GMs should impose a hardcap depending on the game.

[Eratosthenes]

They could also churn out the programs for you if you cluster enough good hardware together and have a bunch of agents + coding skillsofts in there doing teamwork.

This sounds like how an AI is born. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Code writes code that's better, which writes even better code...self-improving code!

[Harbin]

And then you come back to find- no code D: