My group has recently found itself in a debate over whether or not you can make/buy hacking or even common use programs beyond rating 6. Our hacker says that he saw the ruling for it somewhere in Unwired, but we've yet to find it. I was hoping Dumpshock might be able to shed a bit of light on our little problem. If they do exist, can someone give me a page reference, because we're all baffled. Thanks a billion!

-Belvidere

its mentioned in the fluff somewhere that military and megacorps possess programs of 7 +

It's left to the descretion of the GM and should be reserved for epic story arcs or seriously rich and experienced characters. I think it's mostly used for the hacker with all rating 6 programs trying to hack the UCAS govornment and the gm hits them with the rating 8 black IC and rating 12 firewall etc.

Edit: this is my 666th post, creepy huh

Glad to know that your demonic post was the first reply in my topic.

Thanks for the info too!

Here's the "fluff":

There's also a quote somewhere in unwired about certain critical and/or permanent nodes having statistics above rating 6 as well. Nexi already kind of break some of the limits(subscriptions and programs), but I wouldn't be surprised if, say, the Gridguide system had a firewall of seven or eight.

I don't think it does, because in Arsenal it says Gridguide is hacked all the time, but it´s security hackers are good. And it's sister system, Gridlink, has only a device rating of 3 by RAW, so i'd place its Node Statistics (except response of course) as 4-5 tops. Gridguide is clearly not a milispec system to receive rating 6 defenses, it is a security system at most.

Agreed, if Gridguide was sitting on rating 6 defenses my hacker has broken plenty of rules. With the help of gridguide I've setup plenty of tails and traces on live people by jumping between gridguide nodes. But from my experience, my GM has started buffing gridguide cause he's gotten a bit sick of me using it so much, mostle their hackers are starting to turn into prime runners, or he's rolling really lucky.

Well. The Requirements for an UV-Host is Response and System at least 10... and i don't know where i read it (may be unofficial?) But the Züricher Orbital consists of 15 chained Rating 12 nexi... right? As i remember the programs on there weren't that high though (about 8-9).

But if i see it there: a highrated AI can easily run optimized rating 15+ programs on a souped-up comercial Nexus if it took the time to program such things. Technomancers can thread their crap insanely high as well. (Oh how i hate those buggers) And the rules for programming their own stuff pretty much allow for all ratings in a reasonable timeframe.

One could think that a master programmer with assistants, a programming suite and a programming environment can churn out such a program (I would say rules of -1 dice for long tests are clearly in order here, though) in half a year or so. So the Fluff and the rules are not really that consistant for me. I would say:

1 - Toys for scriptkiddies and grandma's
2 - For the poor
3-5 - Cheap but ok for most tasks
6 - Hacker stuff
7-9 - Achievable but rare high-end products
10-12 - HOLY cow Don't point that at me. I don't really WANT to know where you got it
13-15 - yeah ok, we go in and steal one of eight billion

There are no specific rules preventing a hacker from whipping up 7+ rating programs. In fact, using optimization attributes, it's entirely possible to run a rating 12 program on a store-bought commlink.

If you have 10-20k nuyen to rent the development environment time, and you use some programming software, it takes about 2 months to create a rating 12 program.

Then, according to RAW, that program is updated, for free, automatically, forever.

UV Node requirements?

There's more on that page as well, some nice and rather nasty bits that make UV nodes all the ambrosia in a viper's nest you could want.

Why exactly would that program get updates, Dixie?

Per Unwired, Self-Coded Programs do not degrade...

Of Course, not everyone agrees upon that..

Keep the Faith

Actually, self coded software does degrade:


On the plus side, a hacker with that bleeding edge rating 12 program can spend one week every month or two (depending on if it's a hacking program or not) to perform a Software + Logic test to keep that program at a rating of 12. Since it's self coded, said hacker doesn't need to crack the program for the source code as he/she will already know it.

We're having a duplicate of this discussion in another thread, but the result is the same: *of course* it degrades, and if your reading of the errata says otherwise, you'd have the house rule the degradation back in anyway.

Just out of a morbid sense of curiousity, why would you think that?

Keep the Faith

Don't your complex forms have a max rating of your resonance? And if you thread higher than that you start taking physical from fading, right? So by spending the karma and getting you resonance high enough, there really isn't a cap for how high you can technically get a CF.

In theory, that is very true... Much Like Mages, Technomancers have an effectively unlimited advancement for their Resonance... And though it is theoretically unlimited, practically, you won't probably ever see a Technomancer go much above an 8 or 9... Our Technomancer has almost 300 Karma, has 5 Submersion Grades and still only has a Resonance of 7... That stuf is EXPENSIVE...

Keep the Faith

Because, Tymeaus, then you'd be getting all your programs for free, better than pirated, open source, cracked, or legit, right? *shrug* It's just me, but it wouldn't make any sense, mechanically or by the fluff. No tricky logic, just my sense of balance. That's all.

It's possible that some people are mixing up hackers and technomancers, since complex forms don't degrade.

A hacker's rating 12 hacking program degrades. A technomancer's rating 12 hacking complex form never degrades.

Pretty much this. I can't find it in my copy of unwired right now, but it says somewhere specifically that code you write maintains itself automatically.

I don't feel like finding it. I want to forget it existed.

On the up shot, it means that you can have a theoretical maximum of 4 programs you've written for yourself. However, that leaves you with zero time to do anything else with your life, since you're coding for 8 hours a day during your week long interval. So let's say reasonably you're looking at 1-3 programs, most likely 1-2 that you've coded and maintain.

This might fall to GM's discretion per the errata, but...

Take a drone with the right hardware and give it the Profession autosoft for the Software skill (Arsenal, page 114; it allows one Technical skill & Software is a Technical skill). As long as it's Pilot + [Profession] pool is at least 4 it can buy that one hit to patch a program that's degraded by one rating. Theoretically, one drone could keep patching four programs for you each month, three if you assign it to patch its own Pilot and Profession software if they're not legal.

They could also churn out the programs for you if you cluster enough good hardware together and have a bunch of agents + coding skillsofts in there doing teamwork.

Sounds like GMs should impose a hardcap depending on the game.

This sounds like how an AI is born.

Code writes code that's better, which writes even better code...self-improving code!

And then you come back to find- no code D:

I once built Master Chief and Cortana. Cortana is very instrumental in making Master Chief awesome, because she can conjure machine sprites and put them pretty much into all his equipment and cyber for obscene boni.

Before, I built Motoko Kusanagi (cybered adept hacker with 750 Karma).

And before that, as a wee lad, I built Wolverine.

I also built Brother-Marine Punisher, a Space Marine of the Blood Angels chapter (minigum/bolter pistol/chainsword, skills about for a commander), who was part of a cult of Emperor worshippers in the contested region between East and West Turkey. But he was SR3. I used him for a superior threat NPC once.

That said, while I like to design such nonsense, I do not play it. It would warant a decent slap, such as the one I'd issue to a player who shows up with such things. Yes, this could be where an AI originates. But even so, what could it do? I'd produce even more awesome code. Since I always keepmy deviced hardware de-WiFi'd, because I know far toomuch about the dangers of wireless hacking, it would live in the only world it knows - the programming cluster. It might try and talk to me. Hey, if I treat it okay, it might even be nice! And I get programs with Resonance options.

Whee powergaming!

And if it is a Codeivore? I just delete it. Hardware delete. The hardware is unpowered and reinstalled. AI is dead. Backup Agents are installed. Programming commences again. Profit!

Not sure what you are replying to (or why you singled me out)... My post just prior has no connection to what you said... so, I am understandably a bit confused from the lack of context...

EDIT: Looked further up, and found your reference point...
But you would not be getting your Programs for Free... you would have to dedicate vast amounts of time to programming that software that you are using, and if you wanted it to be SOTA at the minimum (and possibly Bleeding Edge), that is going to take Hordes of Time and Effort, and cost you a fair bit of change to book time on a programming environment (Money that could be spent just keeping your SOTA Cracked Software up to date)... and Open Source, for all intents and purposes does not degrade, as you just go out and get the latest Open Source program when you needed it (Availability Permitting, but they are not all that hard to get actually), each and every time that you need it (Free Software)... no difference in that regard...

As for the Legal Software, you no longer pay for updates either, so free as well (There are other drawbacks to Legit software of course)... and as for the Pirated/Cracked software, at 10% cost, they are so cheap that you could just get what you needed each and every run and it would not be all that expensive... so at that point, you need to balance the time spent coding your own programs (what is your time worth) vs. the minimal to no cost of the other options (what can your wallet absorb?)...

It is a truly irelevant difference in the long run...


Keep the Faith

Tym,

He was talking about Technomancers. Not my programming agent factory exploit (which would not need renting a programming environment, as I would provide one - a well-made investment).

Wait, what? It doesn't sound like you're arguing with me, so I must have been misunderstood. In short, SOTA/degradation is necessary for balance.

My point is that if self-coded programs _didn't_ degrade, then a hacker has all his 'equipment' for free, after a one-time investment of time (probably pre-play) and a pretty cheap Programming Suite.

Compare to Open Source: most of those programs probably don't exist, either because of type or rating, and they'll degrade.
Compare to Pirates: you're paying 10% of the list price every month or two to stay fully SOTA, because they degrade.
Compare to Cracked: you're spending cracking time on every program you want fully SOTA every month or two, or they'll degrade.

and…
Compared to Legit: you're paying 100% list price, maybe missing options like Optimization, and they're all Registered to a SIN.

I have nothing to say about personal AI slaves, because that's just obviously broken. I wasn't even aware that Pilot can have Software, because Agents explicitly can't, I thought.

Unless there's an errata, there's nothing to prevent this but the DM and an appropriatly heavy book.

You can, of course, just cluster a couple credsticks into the AI factory and establish a second agents' group that constantly fixes your software. Plus, my initial idea was to use this factory to program me a couple dozen agents with differet IDs I will put into my clustered cyberware with some 60 response and just agent smith everything with them. And agents don't degrade.

I kind of miss SR1's matrix rules. At least, I cannot remember such a glaring abuse possible thwere, but then again, I was but a wee lad back then, so I may be just mistaken.

SR4A, p234: "Agents do not possess a Software skill and are not able self-patch/program."

As far as I'm concerned, the use of [Profession] (Software) autosofts, which are explicitly for drones and not agents, is an error in Unwired. RAW, Software is a 'single Technical skill', but given the above limitation on agents, it makes little sense for a drone to have that ability, and we've already had great arguments above that it unbalances the game.

Why wouldn't Agents degrade, unless they're Legit too? Aren't they software ('Advanced Programming Table' in Unwired, p119)? For that matter, so are the [Profession] autosofts used in the drone program mill example, although you could probably buy those Legit without worrying about the Registration; still, if you wanted free copies, you'd be right back to Cracking and SOTA degradation again.

It is a blatant exploit of blurry and contradictory rules. I never stated it was anything else. I would never play this anyway, nor allow it in a game. But it makes for a decent illustration of the clusterfuck SR4's matrix rules are in parts.

Oh, absolutely. I didn't mean you were being evil.

Regarding the [Profession] autosoft, it's in the errata for Unwired that GMs should limit the autosoft to exclude things that require a more artistic or sophisticated decision making, such as Artisan and Hacking. Hence why I said in my previous post (previous page, probably) that it'd probably fall to GM's discretion to allow a drone to have a [Profession] (Software) autosoft just to do patching.

I would argue that a pilot that has the software autosoft could not program or work on anything with a superior rating to it's own pilot rating. It doesn't make sense that the program could work on or program things more advanced then itself. And that's if I allowed pilots to have that in the first place.

Buy one Rating 6 Agent and one Rating 5 Software autosoft, and you get an unlimited supply of level 6 Agents with different IDs. Also, it might be worth checking at what point you make more money selling the agents as pirated software than running the shadowsaccording to standard fees.

But an Agent can't program anyway, nor can they get Software autosofts (and neither can drones, if there's a sane GM).

Agents do not self-patch on the spot. This means Agents need patches like any program does. That does NOT mean they cannot use a [single technical skill] autosoft. The line from SR4A says that Agents degrade. Nothing else.

Sorry, but that exploit has yet to be errata'd away.

That loophole is a drone autosoft, not an agent one. Not that it matters, I'm merely pointing it out because we're talking about silly, wrong details.
You could just as well use a crazy *drone* exploit group instead of a crazy *agent* one.

Not to mention that you can get drones with a decent pilot rating for less than you'd normally pay for just the pilot program.

There are a number of constraints, several of which depend upon exactly how one reads the rules.

Some folks read the Nexus rules as allowing a Nexus to run software of higher rating than the system. My own reading of those rules is that they only allow more programs to be run, not higher rating programs. If the GM allows a nexus to run higher rating software, then the next point is null.

It seems to seems to me that you need to be able to run the software you are writing, in order to test it out. And that you need to be able to run it unoptimized before you can optimize it. This is distinctly a judgment call, but is one that I have seen other people propose as well. These two points would serve to keep folks from writing rating 12 optimize 6 software on their own. (Even an AI friend only gets you access to a rating 9 node, unless he is a truly terrifying AI.

While the availability rules do give a formula for availability of higher rating software, there is no price given. Normally, one would simply extend the regular price formula. But software prices are tiered. rating 4-6 software is more expensive than rating 1-3 software. These seems to mean that whether high rating software can be purchased, and if so at what price, becomes a pure GM call.

As a side-note, the rules do seem to say that firewalls can be any rating. It is not even clear that is capped at 12, although I assume it is. They also seem to say taht any node can run any grade of firewall. So I tend to assume that higher grade firewalls ought to be available, but clearly it is GM call, and GM price.

In practice, a lot of this is about what you want the net balance of the game to be. if players can easily buy grade 12 optimize 6 stealth, then presumably admins can easily buy grade 12 optimize 6 analyze.

Yours,
Joel

PS: I tend to read the correction to the software degradation rules as meaning that self-written software does not undergo the continuous degradation at the regular intervals defined by the base rules. While it is true that the rules still allow for the GM to declare that the world has gotten better and some things need patching, a GM who does that often is hurting is players. Doing so once in a great while for plot / story reason, well, GMs are allowed and encouraged to make the story work well.

Part of patching is to discover and develop new exploits. Patching is, essentially, writing code.

Maybe it needs to be clarified, but to create a patch for a program, it's kind of self-evident that one must *code* the patch into existence.

So the question is: Can an Agent write code to begin with. I'd personally say not at the level required to do any serious hacking.

Not at all, because an agent can't have the Software skill.

True. Agents? No, no Software for you. No scripting or patching.

Pilot programs for drones? GM's discretion for that [Profession] autosoft, per the Unwired errata.

Well, okay, make it a drone, up the pilot to max and remove all other vehicle components and wifi. Yeah. That actually is more cost effective. Then cluster a couple cheap commlinks to it. You have a programming Nexus.

That's not better though.

True, but I had something like that in mind only for doing software patch jobs and nothing more.