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Machiavelli
post Apr 12 2010, 08:03 AM
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Is there something planned regarding erratas for street magic or runners companion? I would e.g. really interested if somebody of the Devs is going to change the "broken" new spirits ability of counterspelling.
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MikeKozar
post Apr 12 2010, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2010, 12:03 AM) *
Is there something planned regarding erratas for street magic or runners companion? I would e.g. really interested if somebody of the Devs is going to change the "broken" new spirits ability of counterspelling.


I'm a Very Technical Boy, so forgive my ignorance - why is Counterspelling broken?
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Machiavelli
post Apr 12 2010, 04:32 PM
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You really ask me why spirits that are capable to defend agains spells while all common spirits canīt, are broken ?
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 12 2010, 04:37 PM
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<nods>

Especially since I can only think of one type of conjured spirit has a power that can be counterspelled, and that power is pretty limited itself (Innate Spell). I don't think any of the other spirit powers are affected by it, but I could be mistaking.

All Magic Guard does is allow the summoner to not worry as much about having Counterspelling up all the time, or get a minor boost to it from the teamwork rules.
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MikeKozar
post Apr 12 2010, 04:43 PM
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Spirits are creatures of magic. By default, don't most of them get an "Aid Sorcery" power? Seems reasonable that some of them might get a "Hinder Sorcery" power. Kind of the other side of the same coin.

I can see where it would make them damn hard to kill with Manabolts, especially when you start to get above Force 5. On the other hand, when you start to get above Force 5, they're supposed to be hard to kill, right?

I guess, to answer your question: Yes, I am really asking. This isn't intended as disrespectful to you - as I said, I'm tech-based and honestly don't understand why. Perhaps you could explain it to me?
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X-Kalibur
post Apr 12 2010, 04:46 PM
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God forbid you have to use that banishing skill or engage in astral combat with it. Whatever shall you do?
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Machiavelli
post Apr 12 2010, 05:05 PM
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Dear Mike, i didnīt understand your questions being disrespectful, just not overthought very properly. Look: if you check the forum you will find tons of discussions that spirits or mages are too powerful, if the force exceeds a certain level mundanes are virtually helpless against a spirit and so on. So up to now the only way to balance spirits out as enemies, was to put a mage or other spirits in. They had only willpower or body to resist, no armor at all and so "at least" a good mage was able to safe your mundanes co-runners ass. I always curse on the devs, but at least up to now they made it that everything that existed had his weak point. Now they introduced new spirits and they all can counterspell. I also didnīt see other spirit powers missing that would balance this out. Not even close, if you look properly e.g. the guardian spirit has a ton of skills more than other spirits. He has clubs and bladed weapons, which means while an air elemental attacks with (STR/2) he can grab a sword, doing (STR/2)+3, Reach bonus +1. As a mage you donīt have dice pools as big as e.g. cybered companions, which means that the number of hits you can produce is somewhat limited. But with counterspelling you can pack your bags if such spirits are on the loose. They now equal mages in magic resistance, trolls with military armor in physical resistance and if you use banishing you will see them laughing before you become unconscious. So what do you want to do against spirits that are immune against anything? And why are all the "lesser" traditions able to summon the updated spirits while the "common" ones are still lame in comparison? I was about to create new characters but i really donīt see a reason to take the common spirits anymore. The new ones are much better and i, as a black mage, will not get my ass kicked by a f***ing voodoo-nerd.
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WinterScale
post Apr 12 2010, 05:49 PM
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What would be awesome is to find out when we can expect erratas for products that have been needing them for some time, such as RC.

Assuming the data gets compiled, I have to wonder why things take so darned long to finally make it into print, even as a PDF on the web site....
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Dr.Rockso
post Apr 12 2010, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (WinterScale @ Apr 12 2010, 01:49 PM) *
What would be awesome is to find out when we can expect erratas for products that have been needing them for some time, such as RC.

Assuming the data gets compiled, I have to wonder why things take so darned long to finally make it into print, even as a PDF on the web site....

The CGL discussion thread extravaganza will likely answer this question. But to sum: allegations of embezzlement, freelancers not getting paid soon enough/quitting and more. Oh, and hot Lone Star on Unicorn action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)
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Banaticus
post Apr 12 2010, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2010, 10:05 AM) *
And why are all the "lesser" traditions able to summon the updated spirits while the "common" ones are still lame in comparison? I was about to create new characters but i really donīt see a reason to take the common spirits anymore. The new ones are much better and i, as a black mage, will not get my ass kicked by a f***ing voodoo-nerd.

Wait, what's this about some traditions not getting to summon good spirits? Why's that?
QUOTE (Dr.Rockso @ Apr 12 2010, 11:17 AM) *
Oh, and hot Lone Star on Unicorn action. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

Rule 34, Dr.Rockso, rule 34.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 12 2010, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2010, 10:32 AM) *
You really ask me why spirits that are capable to defend agains spells while all common spirits canīt, are broken ?

So, the chance of me even considering thinking about anything you ever say on the subject of game balance just dropped to 0.
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Muspellsheimr
post Apr 12 2010, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2010, 10:32 AM) *
You really ask me why spirits that are capable to defend agains spells while all common spirits canīt, are broken ?

So, the chance of me even considering thinking about anything you ever say on the subject of game balance just dropped to 0.
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Wandering One
post Apr 12 2010, 06:30 PM
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Never discount the powah of unicorn Pr0n. However, speaking of erratas, does anyone know where I can get a copy of the errata to Unwired?
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 12 2010, 06:31 PM
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Perhaps...
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Wandering One
post Apr 12 2010, 06:34 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 12 2010, 11:31 AM) *


Much obliged.
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Machiavelli
post Apr 12 2010, 06:45 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ Apr 12 2010, 07:26 PM) *
Wait, what's this about some traditions not getting to summon good spirits? Why's that?

Rule 34, Dr.Rockso, rule 34.
Mages and Shamans can only summon standard spirits, while the new traditions can more or less the new ones which gives them a big advantage. This is what i meant with "the good spirits".
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Machiavelli
post Apr 12 2010, 06:47 PM
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QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Apr 12 2010, 07:27 PM) *
So, the chance of me even considering thinking about anything you ever say on the subject of game balance just dropped to 0.

Iīm sorry for hurting your syntax and phrase-feelings. I will never ever again create such a blasphemy.^^ Forgive me master, i am unworthy.^^ But nevertheless, it doesnīt make the said wronger.
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Ol' Scratch
post Apr 12 2010, 06:57 PM
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QUOTE
But nevertheless, it doesnīt make the said wronger.

Uhm, yeah it does.

How exactly is this any different from the summoner protecting the spirit with Counterspelling himself? How does it stop all of the myriad other forms of taking down a spirit any more difficult (weapon foci, attacks of will, taking advantage of vulnerabilities, sheer firepower -- and yes, conventional weapons do work just fine on spirits as long as you go all overkill on its ass)? Oh no, so the mage can't Stunbolt it as easily as normal (but still pretty easily). Heaven's, no! The very fabric of reality is unweaving! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Also, the spirits in Street Magic are different. Not "better," just different. At most, they have access to the new powers in SM, and if it's really a problem you can easily give some of them to the spirits in the main sourcebook as appropriate. Spirits of Man, for instance, would make sense having access to the apparently gamebeaking Magical Guard power.

But, seriously, it's not this earth-shattering balance issue you seem to think it is. Yeah, a spirit protected by Counterspelling (which, again, is not limited only to ones with Magical Guard) may get a couple of more hits against your Stunbolt. Whooptido.

Side note: You really should try to do your namesake justice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Sengir
post Apr 12 2010, 07:07 PM
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Mind if I hop on with the standard errata question? When do we finally see the Augmentation errata
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Machiavelli
post Apr 12 2010, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 12 2010, 07:57 PM) *
Uhm, yeah it does.

How exactly is this any different from the summoner protecting the spirit with Counterspelling himself? How does it stop all of the myriad other forms of taking down a spirit any more difficult (weapon foci, attacks of will, taking advantage of vulnerabilities, sheer firepower -- and yes, conventional weapons do work just fine on spirits as long as you go all overkill on its ass)? Oh no, so the mage can't Stunbolt it as easily as normal (but still pretty easily). Heaven's, no! The very fabric of reality is unweaving! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Also, the spirits in Street Magic are different. Not "better," just different. At most, they have access to the new powers in SM, and if it's really a problem you can easily give some of them to the spirits in the main sourcebook as appropriate. Spirits of Man, for instance, would make sense having access to the apparently gamebeaking Magical Guard power.

But, seriously, it's not this earth-shattering balance issue you seem to think it is. Yeah, a spirit protected by Counterspelling (which, again, is not limited only to ones with Magical Guard) may get a couple of more hits against your Stunbolt. Whooptido.

Side note: You really should try to do your namesake justice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
The only way i could do this, was to kill all opponents and all of their family so that nobody is going to take revenge. But i donīt think that you meant that.^^

Where the big difference is? Ähmm...these spirits can defend themselves without the need of protection from the summoner. So remote services and attacks outide of LOS are covered while the common ones are as vulnerable as mundanes. This IS a quite big advantage because (like i already pointed out) the mage can summon "anti-mage" spirits. But if this wouldnīt be already enough reason to overthing the RAW, they get access to some real serious usefull skills that makes this kinds of spirits way more versatile and dangerous than the common ones. Old spirits can attack you in close combat, if they have luck they can cause an elemental attack, but thatīs it. The new ones can kill your comrade, get his rifle with EX and blow your head of. More damage, more attacks, more dead runners. For me this reasoning is quite clear...if you donīt get it anyway, i really donīt know which else contention you might need to see the problem.
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Nixda
post Apr 12 2010, 11:02 PM
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QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2010, 07:05 PM) *
Not even close, if you look properly e.g. the guardian spirit has a ton of skills more than other spirits. He has clubs and bladed weapons, which means while an air elemental attacks with (STR/2) he can grab a sword, doing (STR/2)+3, Reach bonus +1.

Well, I don't see the big advantage here, to be honest. Obviously he cannot carry a mundane sword around in astral space, so when he materializes he would then need to pick up a sword first, instead of attacking, which would give the runners an additional initiative pass to react to the Guardian spirit - it basically just gives the mage time for an additional spell at him, more than compensating for his counterspelling. A fire elemental attacking immediately with its energy aura seems a lot more dangerous.

Of course, you could argue a smart corp might make him materialize first, arm him with a sword (and maybe a taser shield for good measure) and then have him waiting around a corner for the runners. But seriously, they'd better just have a spirit carry a huge amount of plastic explosives with a remote detonator and have him play suicide bomber then arm him with a sword.

QUOTE (Machiavelli @ Apr 12 2010, 07:05 PM) *
As a mage you donīt have dice pools as big as e.g. cybered companions, which means that the number of hits you can produce is somewhat limited. But with counterspelling you can pack your bags if such spirits are on the loose. They now equal mages in magic resistance, trolls with military armor in physical resistance and if you use banishing you will see them laughing before you become unconscious. So what do you want to do against spirits that are immune against anything? And why are all the "lesser" traditions able to summon the updated spirits while the "common" ones are still lame in comparison? I was about to create new characters but i really donīt see a reason to take the common spirits anymore. The new ones are much better and i, as a black mage, will not get my ass kicked by a f***ing voodoo-nerd.


I do not dispute that high force spirits can be quite strong, but getting a few additional hits from their counterspelling hardly makes them "immune against anything".

Can you please explain why you think banishing will not be a viable option against such a spirit ? I am not sure I understand the reasoning behind this.

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Banaticus
post Apr 13 2010, 12:17 AM
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QUOTE (Nixda @ Apr 12 2010, 04:02 PM) *
But seriously, they'd better just have a spirit carry a huge amount of plastic explosives with a remote detonator and have him play suicide bomber...

Oh. Aztechnology is now going to start going this. "If anyone comes down this hallways during the official lights out times, step out of your niche, run up to them and press the big red button that you're going to be holding."

"Hey, mage who summoned the suicide ghost, if you summon and bind a few more here, here, and here on the map, and if you maintain contact with them and manage to stop any group of runners, then we won't make you be the next one to hold the button. Now go start summoning some more. Here's your sets of buttons wired to these packs to give to the spirits, then you can go back to the penthouse we've provided you and live in the lap of luxury. While you're laying back on easy street, just remember, if you don't stop any runners who come through during the official lights out times when everything is supposed to be shut, you're going to be the next one standing there holding a button."
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Nixda
post Apr 13 2010, 12:35 AM
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Lol, I was more thinking of using them once an alarm was sounded - "Mage, have your spirit carry this into the runner group, our hacker'll do the rest."

Also, using some gas might actually be preferable considering the lower property damage. I just used the example to show that there are better plans than starting to arm your spirits with swords.
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pbangarth
post Apr 13 2010, 02:08 AM
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Spirits that can Counterspell are more resistant to spells than those that do not. This power makes no difference to their resistance to mundane forms of attack, or other, astral forms of attack, only the spellcasting attack of magicians.

The addition of such spirits to the game should be hailed as a boon and an answer to their complaints by proponents of the position that magicians are overpowered. Till now, the vast majority of DS posters who have spoken about the Banishing Skill have said it is basically a waste of BP which can be spent on other things, like Counterspelling, or ways to even more drastically blast mundanes, for example. Now, those overpowered magicians must consider divvying up their power, weakening those other aspects that allegedly made them lord it over mundanes, and putting some of it into a Skill that works only on spirits, not on mundanes.

Those who see magicians as overpowered should be pleased at this turn of events.
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sn0mm1s
post Apr 13 2010, 02:34 AM
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What level of spirits are we talking about here? Materialized spirits aren't that difficult to take down.
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