Erratas Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What level of spirits are we talking about here? Materialized spirits aren't that difficult to take down.

Powerful ones apparently... though not exactly sure how Powerful, Powerful is... it is a subjective term after all...

Keep the Faith

[Prime Mover]

Still waiting for Augmentation errata Adam said we'd see "soon" around x-mas.

[Machiavelli]

Well, I don't see the big advantage here, to be honest. Obviously he cannot carry a mundane sword around in astral space, so when he materializes he would then need to pick up a sword first, instead of attacking, which would give the runners an additional initiative pass to react to the Guardian spirit - it basically just gives the mage time for an additional spell at him, more than compensating for his counterspelling. A fire elemental attacking immediately with its energy aura seems a lot more dangerous.

Of course, you could argue a smart corp might make him materialize first, arm him with a sword (and maybe a taser shield for good measure) and then have him waiting around a corner for the runners. But seriously, they'd better just have a spirit carry a huge amount of plastic explosives with a remote detonator and have him play suicide bomber then arm him with a sword.



I do not dispute that high force spirits can be quite strong, but getting a few additional hits from their counterspelling hardly makes them "immune against anything".

Can you please explain why you think banishing will not be a viable option against such a spirit ? I am not sure I understand the reasoning behind this.

*sigh* ok. We are talking about possibilities here, not actual settings. I you are in a open-air bath and the spirit is sent after you, the chances of getting attacked with a sword or gun are quite low, but we are playing SR where everybody is armed. Don´t you also think that the chance that the spirit has quick access to a weapon is quite high? I really dislike it when people argue in exceptions that happen 3% of the time, while they completely ignore the other 97%. What if the spirit is summoned before the attack and has more than enough time to GET a weapon, may it be from his comrades, may it be by himself through killing somebody that has this weapon? What about the times between fights? You are not always in combat turns, if you flee or if you go to another place, the combat turns stop and it really doesn´t need a long time to lower your upper body to get access to things that lay on the ground, don´t you also think? And besides that: which stupid mage is summoning a fighting spirit, letting him materialize when the combat already had started, maybe even right in the middle of the combat field where everybody can take him out before he is finished with his step through the worlds? Materialization costs a complex action, and the spirit already just has 2 phases, so this would be an tactical disaster. But what about a spirit that could be equipped with every kind of weapon while other spirits can´t?`Don´t you think that this could be an advantage? Or do you now argue that there could only be hold-outs available and this might be no advantage?^^

I also care nearly zero of mages being overpowered, it is about "game balance". It is about NEW spirits being MUCH better than OLD spirits. They have access to new and very useful powers, they don´t lack powers the old ones have AND they have more and better skills.

I have my own opinion about mages being overpowered and this has been discussed more than enough times.
In my game we have mages with full magic-attribute of 6 (which is quite high and absolutely not "average") and we usually have skills in spellcasting around 5, maybe (+2) from your mentor spirit. Right from the start spellcasting foci are only available in low ratings and definitely not for every spell-section. So usually you don´t have more than a sustaining focus at the start and during the first months of play (karma is needed for other stuff). So our dice pool lies around 13 dices which gives statistically around 4 hits. If your enemies just have 3-5 dice in average to defend, they are f*** up, no argue on that. Ok, they are not dead because you don´t overcast for every pimp and with force 6 and 3 net hits, he is still able to do something. But anyway...but if you have a mage or one of the new spirits (force 4+, which is common) as an opponent, your dice are equal. So no "i can take him out", because you can´t. You might even not be able to hurt him anyway, because he has more successes in his spell defence test. So you got drain, cause nothing, he slaughters you in the next phase and all your comrades afterwards. And please, everybody who is now about to say "but you can kill him with mundane weapons" think again and switch on your brains. The thing has hardened armor, to hurt him you need A LOT of successes and something everybody seems to forget is, that these things can dodge, you have recoil, light modifiers and so on and so forth. If you in your game have "no problem" killing materialized spirits, you or your GM are simply doing something wrong. That is not my fault that you don´t know the rules.

Regarding the "banishing" question, i don´t want to be impolite. Please show us all your "search-fu" and check the entries. Summoning kills you by drain and is the most useless skill ever. This would be a great point for the Devs to think again and check it for a new Errata. Besically all the topic was about upcoming erratas, not about the good old "mages and spirits" discussion.

I hope i could help

[Machiavelli]

Powerful ones apparently... though not exactly sure how Powerful, Powerful is... it is a subjective term after all...

Keep the Faith

In our game, standard would be 4, below that you only summon for simple transport/message reasons or to intimidate. Strong would be 5 and above.

[Ol' Scratch]

Banishing is a lot more effective than people think it is.

Banishing pits your Banishing + Magic vs. the spirit's Force. You only apply the summoner's Magic if the spirit is bound, which is going to be a rare case indeed. And if it is a bound spirit, it's clear the GM intended it to be a major threat anyway, so no need to cry about that.

Assuming a Magic of 5 and a Banishing skill of 4, that's 9 dice for you. Even against a powerful Force 6 spirit, you have the advantage. On average, the spirit will get a whole 2 hits versus your 3, meaning you reduced its services by one and suffer a devastating Drain Value of 2. If you can't completely negate a Drain Value of 2, well, you probably deserve to die because of it. And this ignores your use of Edge (and while a spirit can do the same, I doubt most summoned spirits will want to stop you from sending it back home and/or releasing it from servitude enough to waste its own Edge), the use of Banishing Foci, and various other considerations. Yes, it's not going to be a one-hit one-kill attack, but if your team is woefully unprepared for dealing with enemies with Immunity to Normal Weapons 6, Banishing is the exact opposite of useless. And it sure as hell isn't deadly to use.

What's more, unless you're in a powergaming group, you're much more likely to face spirits in the Force 4 range anyway, making it even easier to get banish them. Though in those cases a Ruger Super Warhawk with EX-Explosive ammo will do the job better, so it's a moot point.

To drive the point home, here's five quick contests between a Force 6 spirit and a mage with Banishing 4 and Magic 5.

[ Spoiler ]

Mage: 5,5,1,6,6,2,2,3,1
Spirit: 3,5,1,4,1,4
Result: 3 services removed, 1 DV drain

Mage: 5,5,1,5,5,6,5,6,2
Spirit: 2,1,4,4,2
Result: 7 services removed, NO drain

Mage: 6,2,6,6,1,1,3,5,2
Spirit: 4,2,3,3,3,5
Result: 3 services removed, 1 DV drain

Mage: 6,1,5,2,1,1,6,1,5
Spirit: 4,2,5,1,1,4
Result: 3 services removed, 1 DV drain

Mage: 5,6,2,1,3,4,6,1,5
Spirit: 5,5,4,4,1,6
Result: 1 service removed, 3 DV drain

Hardly useless or damaging.

[Machiavelli]

First: you really rolled bad for the spirit.
Second: your examples only work if the spirit ain´t bound (you already pointed that out), chances are 50/50
Third: banishing takes a complex action, if you cannot reduce his wishes to zero, you still have him around in the next phase, with full power and not reduction on the dice pool. Manabolt is definitely to prefer.
Forth: you get drain at TWICE the successes (NOT net-successes) the spirit gains.MINIMUM 2DV drain. There is a reason pal, why everybody was upset because of the meaningless of this skill.

In my opinion, risking 4 or more drain while possibly causing NO damage/effect on a spirit, is a bad price/use-ratio.

[Ol' Scratch]

1: Yet those rolls still occurred. Averages only mean anything when comparing millions of rolls. You never know what you're actually going to get until you roll the dice; each die has a 1-in-3 chance of getting a hit no matter what. Even if you roll 100 hits in a row, your next die still has that 1-in-3 chance of getting another one despite what the averages say.
2: Yes, because bound spirits are a rare occurrence. And, as previously stated, if you do run into a high-Force bound spirit, the GM intended it to be a very serious threat anyway. You're not intended to have an easy time taking one down, be it through Banishing or any other method.
3: Heavens to Mergatroid, you may have to actually do more than ONE thing in a fight! Oh no! And no bringing up Manabolt or other spells; the entire point here is using an alternative because you're insistent (blindly so) that Counterspelling somehow renders spellcasting impossible. Which is absurd, but that's another argument.
4: Oops, my mistake. Still, of the sample rolls I gave, only one might result in actual drain damage, and mild damage at best. It's hardly instant death.
5: That's an asinine thing to say. ANYTHING you do has the possibility of causing "NO damage/effect on a spirit," be it spellcasting, banishing, or attacking with a weapon focus. It's all in the dice results; not the average possibility of a result, but the actual roll of the dice.

Banishing is not meaningless. Your preference to munchkin your way through encounters by one-shot one-kill tactics is exactly that: your preference. That doesn't mean Banishing isn't a useful tool, especially -- and this is the important part -- as an alternative when you're crying that spellcasting is utterly useless.

[Machiavelli]

Discussions with immortal elves are my favourite.^^

1) Of course those rolls occurred, but your examples are definitely not common 4 times in a row. If one of this rolls go wrong, you are screwed.

2) Bound spirits are not so rare as you might think. If you get in touch with one, you are screwed too.^^

3) Usually you don´t have more than one chance to take an enemie out. We are talking about a mage with potentially low body ratings. if you don´t take the spirit out or at least cause him damage that lowers the dice pool, he can attack you in the next phase with ranged or close combat attach which will more likely take YOU out because you lack the skills anyway.

4) demonstration closed. Spells are more versatile, drain is calculable and you have a bigger chance to weaken the opponent.

So banishing IS meaningless unless you have way more better ways to cancel enemies. (just take a look at gymastics dodge) You have to spent a lot of BP or karma for a skill you could cover easily with other skills like "spellcasting". If the spirit has the power to defend against these attacks too (without the tactical advantage of protection through an comrades counterspelling), you really get a problem. In the past you had a chance that the summoner is not around, now this situation doesn´t apply anymore.

I don´t think that we are munchkin´in in our group, we are just not willingly making our chars. weaker than they have to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

I don´t think that we are munchkin´in in our group, we are just not willingly making our chars. weaker than they have to be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Look, the simple fact is that you're crying about spirits having counterspelling and have, for whatever bizarre reason, dictated that it makes spellcasting useless against one. With that in mind, people point to other alternatives such as banishing which has no diminished effect whateversoever against counterspelling. Your only real argument against it? Spellcasting is better.

If you don't understand why that's completely insane, there's really no point bothering to check this thread anymore.

[Machiavelli]

I was going to say exactly the same to you, but for another reason. You still ignore the fact that this topic is about SOME spirits that are immune or restistant to spellcasting while all the other ones AREN`T. It is about the fact that this is unbalanced because they didn´t get other skills or abilities lowered or cancelled because of their given advantages. A LOT of other people posted in the thread that already covered this topic (banishing useless, new spirits broken) and basically everybody agreed that banishing is broken. So maybe you are the one that didn´t get the point.

[Harbin]

Saying that a roll could go wrong is a reason not to play the game at all. Don't use it in an argument because at some point something will go wrong. No matter if you needed that roll during a fight or if you're hacking the Johnson's commlink and you roll a crit glitch. Or if you crit glitch your infiltration while hanging on the ceiling as a squad of guards go by. Or if you need to make that sniper shot on that dude you're supposed to be taking out. Likewise with spells.

Likewise with life, for that matter.

[Machiavelli]

It´s saying that more rolls go wrong when the enemy has spell defense, nothing else.^^

[Harbin]

Well, my fault then. In that case, I'd use a fallacy to defend the fact that Shadowrun has a lot of skewed things, but perhaps then Counterspelling should be added to other spirits as a house rule if you think it's that bad?

[Machiavelli]

for example. But it was mainly if the devs will do something about it officially or not.

[Ol' Scratch]

Probably not since it's only a major problem in your head, as opposed to the reality of game balance.

[Machiavelli]

Puuuuh...i am so glad that the thread i read about that was a fata-morgana. Thank you for bringing me back to reality.^^

[forgarn]

1: Yet those rolls still occurred. Averages only mean anything when comparing millions of rolls. You never know what you're actually going to get until you roll the dice; each die has a 1-in-3 chance of getting a hit no matter what. Even if you roll 100 hits in a row, your next die still has that 1-in-3 chance of getting another one despite what the averages say.
2: Yes, because bound spirits are a rare occurrence. And, as previously stated, if you do run into a high-Force bound spirit, the GM intended it to be a very serious threat anyway. You're not intended to have an easy time taking one down, be it through Banishing or any other method.
3: Heavens to Mergatroid, you may have to actually do more than ONE thing in a fight! Oh no! And no bringing up Manabolt or other spells; the entire point here is using an alternative because you're insistent (blindly so) that Counterspelling somehow renders spellcasting impossible. Which is absurd, but that's another argument.
4: Oops, my mistake. Still, of the sample rolls I gave, only one might result in actual drain damage, and mild damage at best. It's hardly instant death.
5: That's an asinine thing to say. ANYTHING you do has the possibility of causing "NO damage/effect on a spirit," be it spellcasting, banishing, or attacking with a weapon focus. It's all in the dice results; not the average possibility of a result, but the actual roll of the dice.

Banishing is not meaningless. Your preference to munchkin your way through encounters by one-shot one-kill tactics is exactly that: your preference. That doesn't mean Banishing isn't a useful tool, especially -- and this is the important part -- as an alternative when you're crying that spellcasting is utterly useless.

Totally have to agree here. As a mage I typically have 3 IP's and if there are any spirits around, the first one I use is to banish (possibly the second and third depending on whether or not the spirit is still there). Besides, on average a mage with a summoning of 6 and a magic of 6 will get 4 successes on his summoning test and the force 6 spirit will get 2 so there are only 2 services there for the spirit. That means I only need 2 successes to deplete those services (including the one that it is currently on). Now those are only on average numbers, your mileage may vary, and yes with a summoning foci and bonuses from your mentor spirit the summoner could get higher number of services. But on the same token as the banisher you could have a banishing foci and there are some mentor spirits that give bonuses to banishing (i.e. the adversary)(so you could get more net hits to reduce even more services on the first try.

As for bound spirits, I have not run across the too often. Mostly because of the time and difficulty to do the binding. Monetarily it is not too bad 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) * Force = material cost. However it is the force in hours to do the binding as well as the test (binding + magic vs. Force *2). Now granted you only need 1 net hit as the magician to bind the spirit (the rest add services to the spirit) but still Binding 6 and Magic 6 = Force 6 (*2) spirit so it is a crap shoot as to whether you get that one hit or not. So for that Force 6 spirit to be bound you are looking at the following: 3000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in materials; 6 hours to perform the ritual; (assuming a Binding of 6 and a Magic of 6, and a force 3 binding foci and a mentor spirit that give a bonus to binding tests) a Binding test of (on average) 5 hits (on 17 dice) vs the spirit's 4 hits (on 12 dice) with a drain of 8S to cope with. And that is assuming the magician is built as a binder and uses the binding focus for the binding test and not the drain test. Using the focus for drain would reduce the hit the magician gets to 4 causing a failure for the binding and still have to deal with an 8S drain test. I typically have 4 in my Binding because I don't do it that often.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

1: Yet those rolls still occurred. Averages only mean anything when comparing millions of rolls. You never know what you're actually going to get until you roll the dice; each die has a 1-in-3 chance of getting a hit no matter what. Even if you roll 100 hits in a row, your next die still has that 1-in-3 chance of getting another one despite what the averages say.
2: Yes, because bound spirits are a rare occurrence. And, as previously stated, if you do run into a high-Force bound spirit, the GM intended it to be a very serious threat anyway. You're not intended to have an easy time taking one down, be it through Banishing or any other method.
3: Heavens to Mergatroid, you may have to actually do more than ONE thing in a fight! Oh no! And no bringing up Manabolt or other spells; the entire point here is using an alternative because you're insistent (blindly so) that Counterspelling somehow renders spellcasting impossible. Which is absurd, but that's another argument.
4: Oops, my mistake. Still, of the sample rolls I gave, only one might result in actual drain damage, and mild damage at best. It's hardly instant death.
5: That's an asinine thing to say. ANYTHING you do has the possibility of causing "NO damage/effect on a spirit," be it spellcasting, banishing, or attacking with a weapon focus. It's all in the dice results; not the average possibility of a result, but the actual roll of the dice.

Banishing is not meaningless. Your preference to munchkin your way through encounters by one-shot one-kill tactics is exactly that: your preference. That doesn't mean Banishing isn't a useful tool, especially -- and this is the important part -- as an alternative when you're crying that spellcasting is utterly useless.

I am sorry... I am going to have to agree with the Above from the good Doctor...

Even with their new abilities, the NEW Spirits (and Old SPirits for that matter) are really not all that hard to get rid of (Their access to counterspelling notwithstanding) and Banishing is a very effective way to go about that... I have yet to see a spirit of common power (3-6) that could not be handled with either a Banishing test or an Attack Test (dependant upon the weapon)... some spirits are more hardy than others, and some spirits have access to abilities that others do not, but that is entirely okay... not everything is (or should be) balanced in the world of Shadowrun...

As for the Variant Traditions not using the smae spirits as some of the new Traditions... you might want to go back and look at them, there are more traditions that use the standard spirits than not, and those that do have access to new spirits do not have access to all of them in the same Tradition (Though Voodoo has access to 3 of them)... I think that this is a good thing for Shadowrun, and the magic system in general...

Keep the Faith

[Wandering One]

I'm wondering why everyone assumes bound spirits are so rare. Perhaps at Rating 6+, but I see no reason a corp mage wouldn't bind himself a small army of Rating 3/4 spirits during his 'downtime' between invasions and warding. The corp's paying for the materials and he's using these spirits as magical patrolmen, he's going to want to make sure they're available and he's not going to be wanting to drain himself mid-brawl, and well, he needs to be doing something to be earning his keep in between training himself.

Besides, this way the corp sec also get the 'spam for enough services before binding' ability. Maybe AA corp mages and mom'n'pops wouldn't do this, but I can't foresee any security mage in a AAA NOT doing this.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I'm wondering why everyone assumes bound spirits are so rare. Perhaps at Rating 6+, but I see no reason a corp mage wouldn't bind himself a small army of Rating 3/4 spirits during his 'downtime' between invasions and warding. The corp's paying for the materials and he's using these spirits as magical patrolmen, he's going to want to make sure they're available and he's not going to be wanting to drain himself mid-brawl, and well, he needs to be doing something to be earning his keep in between training himself.

Besides, this way the corp sec also get the 'spam for enough services before binding' ability. Maybe AA corp mages and mom'n'pops wouldn't do this, but I can't foresee any security mage in a AAA NOT doing this.

I missed that as well it seems... Our Mage tends to keep a stable of spirits bound at any given time, One of which is a fairly high force (Force 5) Invoked Spirit. It is extremely cost effective for what you get, depending upon the spirit type... and no, he does not have any access to the "Special" spirits from Street Magic...

Just a plain Magician (Shamanic) with a moderate Summoning ability (Somewhere around 12 dice If I remember correctly)... and he keeps 5 spirits on bound call... so I do not see bound spirits as being all that rare myself either...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

...if you do run into a high-Force bound spirit, the GM intended it to be a very serious threat...

Bound or unbound, spirits with a Force of 4 or lower are easily dispatched by the combat junkies. No mage required.

[pbangarth]

What level of spirits are we talking about here? Materialized spirits aren't that difficult to take down.

I believe the discussion centers on spirits that are high enough Force to have a sizeable Counterspelling effect and also have a viable Immunity to Normal Weapons. Such spirits are seen to be proof against both mundane and magical attacks.

I argue that such a spirit will be tough against such attacks, but because of its very Force will have few services owing its conjurer, and therefore be susceptible to a quick Banishing. Neither armour nor Counterspelling affects the use of that Skill.

[Ol' Scratch]

I argue that such a spirit will be tough against such attacks, but because of its very Force will have few services owing its conjurer, and therefore be susceptible to a quick Banishing. Neither armour nor Counterspelling affects the use of that Skill.

No way, dude. Banishing apparently leads to instant death and, even though the base argument is that counterspelling makes elementals utterly immune to magic somehow, you're still better off using spells in all cases. True story. And if you don't agree, despite everyone in the thread totally agreeing with everything I just said, you clearly just don't understand, man.

[Mordinvan]

It´s saying that more rolls go wrong when the enemy has spell defense, nothing else.^^

Then don't cast spells, get a rail gun, drop a building on it, blow up a gas station near it.....

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Then don't cast spells, get a rail gun, drop a building on it, blow up a gas station near it.....

But then, That would be Logical...

Oh yeah, Right... Got it...

Keep the Faith