Traps: How do you kill your PCs?, And how would PCs cope? Options

[Manunancy]

I'm not sure what type of gas you are talking about but the stuff that is delivered to your hous via pipes usually has certain strong smelling additives so that you don't accidentally blow yourself up. Even if not a chem sniffer would alert the intruders to the trap.

BTW what is a lacrymo grenade?

IMHO explosives needn't even be hidden from RADAR. If the intruders check for them they are considerably slowed so the mechanism was effective in aiding the escape. if you have no other agenda than killing certain people, a trap may not be the optimal solution. A more active way of dealing with them may be better.

It was you basic piped vooking/heating gaz (wether natural gaz, reffinery lefotvers or town gaz, the it works the same). Lacrymo is synnonym for tear gaz - which means the PC's sense of smell was impared enough (or shut off through repeiratory filters/gaz mask) that they would fail to notice the smell.

The underfloor from teh next appartment trap was to destroy eveidences and hopefully destroy nosy investegators along with it.

[Manunancy]

That would be a misconception on your part:

Contrary to Ultrasound, Radar Sensor / UWBR does not have a passive mode to detect/use other emitters. The only way you could detect it would be the rules for finding hidden nodes.

I don't see any misconception

Since the thing doen't have a passive mode, it means it's on active emision mode any time you turn it on - which means you're happily radiating a very distinctive electromagnetic signature. Which can detected and identified for what it is in a heartbeat. Even basic ECM or ECCM gear will spot it before said gear even gets in range to be detected. Just spread around radio receptors tuned to the syste's ferquency and you'll be able to notice someone using the gear in the building. Link them with a bi of software and ou'll be able to triangulate the emitter's position to get your security right on top of them.

And if detecting the emissions of a 'see-through-the-walls' radar inside your facility doesn't scream 'intruder' to your security, you'd better change security.

[Whipstitch]

I'm pretty sure that if all you wanted to do was kill someone via a trap, there would be cheaper, easier, and equally effective ways to do that besides for a D&D style monowire pit trap.

Agreed, particularly in a setting with freakin' drones, hackers and modern chemicals-- kamikaze tactics don't necessarily have to come at the cost of your own men anymore and monitoring such things remotely is eminently feasible with shadowrun tech. I think less in terms of "complex and instantly lethal" and more along the lines of "simple, obvious... but a pain in the ass." You know, stuff like full-height turnstiles that will give you a nice squirt of RFID tag loaded foam dyes (or even aerosol with nanotech) if the alarms have been tripped. That's not even a trap, really, it's just a mechanical means of keeping tabs on people who passed through an area during the emergency.

Anyway, as has been mentioned, elevators are a good way to killl your players-- my players learned rather quickly that you don't take the elevator on your way out unless you're damn certain that no silent alarm has been tripped; they're just too damn obvious/vulnerable and there's nothing saying that a corp can't have it set up so that the Security Spider can override the manual controls at will. You don't even have to make elevators directly lethal, just use them to stall the runners and keep them in a vulnerable position until the CRT arrives-- even the knockout gas idea posited earlier is stretching believability somewhat, but it is certainly possible, particularly when compared to monowire razorpits. Maybe it isn't foolproof, but escaping from a stalled elevator is a tricky business, particularly if doors are all sealed and a sec team is on hand to give you a nice nudge back down if you don't comply-- It's really a situation where it'd be much better to have the resident techies MacGuyver/Hack the lift back under control, since climbing your way out somehow can get pretty lethal pretty quick.

Even if you regain control you can't really expect cover on the way out of that elevator, so you better hope your Reaction is up to snuff when it comes time to get past any guards who are waiting for you. Corners and entry/exit points are basically treated like death traps by soldiers and police officers for a number of very good reasons. If it weren't for the generous way Sr4 handles suppressive fire I'd be neck deep in scrapped character sheets. Even so, you better move fast, avoid knockdowns and fear the chunky salsa rules when fighting your way out of any small room. Even a flash bang can really ruin your weekend.

[knasser]

That would be a misconception on your part:

Contrary to Ultrasound, Radar Sensor / UWBR does not have a passive mode to detect/use other emitters. The only way you could detect it would be the rules for finding hidden nodes.

A RADAR works by emitting electromagnetic waves. It can't work without doing so. It's perfectly reasonable to have devices that pick up radar signals - the RADAR device is itself such a device by necessity.
K.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

I don't see any misconception

Let me show you.

which means you're happily radiating a very distinctive electromagnetic signature.

As the UWBR has, like RAW says, a frequency spectrum from at least Terahertz waves to Gigahertz, and is by RAW a pulsed frequency shifting system, possibly a random one… it's really not that distinctive at all like you think it is.

Which can detected and identified for what it is in a heartbeat.

The only RAW way is Detecting Hidden Nodes.

Just spread around radio receptors tuned to the syste's ferquency and you'll be able to notice someone using the gear in the building. Link them with a bi of software and ou'll be able to triangulate the emitter's position to get your security right on top of them.

Congratulation, you just described the RAW for TI Software – which uses Detecting Hidden Nodes. Look it up in Unwired.

Of course, "the syste's ferquency" part was wrong, anyway – but it doesn't matter by RAW.

A RADAR works by emitting electromagnetic waves.

We are talking about the UWBR, not the RADAR.

It's perfectly reasonable to have devices that pick up radar signals

A Commlink with Scan used for Detecting Hidden Nodes is, as would be a Radio Signal Scanner if they'd add Scan functionality (by RAW, it can't find Hidden Nodes), as would be an installation running TI software.

the RADAR device is itself such a device by necessity.

Not in the way you seem to think it is: As it is a frequency shifting system, it is only tuned to it's own current frequency pattern. By RAW it has no passive mode like the Ultrasound system, thus it cannot be used to "see" other UWBRs by RAW – and as it is a Peripheral Node, it would require GM approval or clustering to run Scan on it for Detecting Hidden Nodes.



So… if you Track that Signal you finally found Detecting Hidden Nodes, you can determine it's location within 50 meters. Good luck using that for traps.

[Patrick the Gnom...]

Let me show you.

As the UWBR has, like RAW says, a frequency spectrum from at least Terahertz waves to Gigahertz, and is by RAW a pulsed frequency shifting system, possibly a random one… it's really not that distinctive at all like you think it is.

The only RAW way is Detecting Hidden Nodes.

Congratulation, you just described the RAW for TI Software – which uses Detecting Hidden Nodes. Look it up in Unwired.

Of course, "the syste's ferquency" part was wrong, anyway – but it doesn't matter by RAW.

We are talking about the UWBR, not the RADAR.

A Commlink with Scan used for Detecting Hidden Nodes is, as would be a Radio Signal Scanner if they'd add Scan functionality (by RAW, it can't find Hidden Nodes), as would be an installation running TI software.

Not in the way you seem to think it is: As it is a frequency shifting system, it is only tuned to it's own current frequency pattern. By RAW it has no passive mode like the Ultrasound system, thus it cannot be used to "see" other UWBRs by RAW – and as it is a Peripheral Node, it would require GM approval or clustering to run Scan on it for Detecting Hidden Nodes.



So… if you Track that Signal you finally found Detecting Hidden Nodes, you can determine it's location within 50 meters. Good luck using that for traps.

UWBR = Ultra Wide Band RADAR?

Also, he's talking about a specific instance of him using real life to dictate the rules in his game, which means that RAW can suck it. If he wants to have the radar sensor be detectable by things that detect radar waves in a game he's running, there's no reason I can see to stop him, and it would seem that RL would agree with his interpretation.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

UWBR = Ultra Wide Band ]RADAR?

There UWBR and there is RADAR in Shadowrun, using different rules.

Also, he's talking about a specific instance of him using real life to dictate the rules in his game, which means that RAW can suck it.

When using a random frequency shifting system, that instance can suck it as well – or be triggered by the slightest random noise on that whole spectrum.

If he wants to have the radar sensor be detectable by things that detect radar waves in a game he's running, there's no reason I can see to stop him […]

We can't stop him having pigs fly either – just pointing out they don't by RAW (and RL) and any belief they would, would be a misconception.

[…] and it would seem that RL would agree with his interpretation.

Or not.

[knasser]

n/m

[knasser]

We are talking about the UWBR, not the RADAR.

I'm talking about the RADAR sensor in the Augmentation book. That should be fairly clear from my post. There's nothing under the description of it in that says you use the rules for detecting Hidden Nodes to detect it. It just says the device uses "short stepped -frequency pulses". RADAR works by sending out pulses and listening for the responses. If the RADAR Sensor implant didn't emit pulses, it would be of no more use than a torch which you didn't turn on. That much is obvious. Now where did you get the stuff about it using rapidly changing frequencies and having to use the Hidden Node rules to detect it? Your own invention?

We can't stop him having pigs fly either – just pointing out they don't by RAW (and RL) and any belief they would, would be a misconception.

I think most of us would consider there be to a substantial difference between "allowing a device that emits signals to be detected by a device that detects those signals" and "allowing pigs to fly." Using hyperbole like this undermines your point. Though your point seems to be that you object to my suggesting a character with a RADAR emitter in their head might be giving away their presence to devices which are looking for RADAR signals.

K.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

No, I'm talking about RADAR[…]

Then you are talking about something unrelated to the issue at hand.

I think most of us would consider there be to a substantial difference between "allowing a device that emits signals to be detected by a device that detects those signals" and "allowing pigs to fly."

Not really, in Shadowrun: There are both rules for that… rules that have certain restrictions.

[knasser]

Then you are talking about something unrelated to the issue at hand.

I'm talking about what I'm talking about. I'm not concerned with your issues. If you're replying to something I said, then you're talking about what I'm talking about.

I think most of us would consider there be to a substantial difference between "allowing a device that emits signals to be detected by a device that detects those signals" and "allowing pigs to fly." Using hyperbole like this undermines your point.

Not really, in Shadowrun: There are both rules for that… rules that have certain restrictions.

Not sure what you're trying to say, there. You're saying that most people wouldn't consider there to be a substantial difference between a GM saying "your RADAR emitting device has been detected by a device that detects RADAR emissions" and Pigasus, because that's what I said and which you are replying to?

K.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

If you're replying to something I said, then you're talking about what I'm talking about.

Not more than you do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Not sure what you're trying to say, there.

Given:

I'm talking about what I'm talking about. I'm not concerned with your issues.

It's a moot point anyway, right? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

But, for reference:

[…]Pigasus[…]

It would be Sparrowpig, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[knasser]

Not more than you do. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Ah, but I had the first post on the subject, so you're talking about what I'm talking about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) But if we're merely trying to talk about separate things and failing, then it's all a bit silly. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Personally, I'm just looking forward to the moment when my "Can I see it with my radar sense (repeated x100)" player goes up against similar level opposition (he's way overpowered for the opposition they have at the moment because the group isn't smart enough to survive against equal level opposition) and finds his favourite toy is broadcasting his presence. At that point, he's going to have to start thinking about it in more tactical terms, rather than as a freebie.

It would be Sparrowpig, actually. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

I'm more of the falling cows school than flying pigs, anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Peace,

Khadim.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

Ah, but I had the first post on the subject, so you're talking about what I'm talking about.

I chose to disregard the possibility that said SC drags a lunchbox-sized RADAR around, using Vehicle Sensor Tests to spot things, rather than him having an UWBR / Radar Sensor vision system and you just using an ambiguous term. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Personally, I'm just looking forward to the moment when my "Can I see it with my radar sense (repeated x100)" player goes up against similar level opposition […] and finds his favourite toy is broadcasting his presence.

The thing I'm trying to point out is that it doesn't broadcast his presence any more than his Commlink in Hidden Mode. Given it's a directional system, it would broadcast it less… because only broadcasting in the cone he can actually see.

So while yes, it is an active vision system allowing you to be detected by it's use, it's much harder to detect than Ultrasound or a flashlight. Because there is no corresponding automatic passive detection method (High frequency hearing, Ultrasound in passive mode or plain old eyeball MK I). It has a Signal and thus can be detected as per Electronic Warfare Rules (with the restriction of it being a directional emission – not that it matters much for a TI).

At that point, he's going to have to start thinking about it in more tactical terms, rather than as a freebie.

Keep in mind that attacks only using that vision system would suffer the Complete Darkness modifier, like ultrasound.

[Wounded Ronin]

Agreed, particularly in a setting with freakin' drones, hackers and modern chemicals-- kamikaze tactics don't necessarily have to come at the cost of your own men anymore and monitoring such things remotely is eminently feasible with shadowrun tech. I think less in terms of "complex and instantly lethal" and more along the lines of "simple, obvious... but a pain in the ass." You know, stuff like full-height turnstiles that will give you a nice squirt of RFID tag loaded foam dyes (or even aerosol with nanotech) if the alarms have been tripped. That's not even a trap, really, it's just a mechanical means of keeping tabs on people who passed through an area during the emergency.

Anyway, as has been mentioned, elevators are a good way to killl your players-- my players learned rather quickly that you don't take the elevator on your way out unless you're damn certain that no silent alarm has been tripped; they're just too damn obvious/vulnerable and there's nothing saying that a corp can't have it set up so that the Security Spider can override the manual controls at will. You don't even have to make elevators directly lethal, just use them to stall the runners and keep them in a vulnerable position until the CRT arrives-- even the knockout gas idea posited earlier is stretching believability somewhat, but it is certainly possible, particularly when compared to monowire razorpits. Maybe it isn't foolproof, but escaping from a stalled elevator is a tricky business, particularly if doors are all sealed and a sec team is on hand to give you a nice nudge back down if you don't comply-- It's really a situation where it'd be much better to have the resident techies MacGuyver/Hack the lift back under control, since climbing your way out somehow can get pretty lethal pretty quick.

Even if you regain control you can't really expect cover on the way out of that elevator, so you better hope your Reaction is up to snuff when it comes time to get past any guards who are waiting for you. Corners and entry/exit points are basically treated like death traps by soldiers and police officers for a number of very good reasons. If it weren't for the generous way Sr4 handles suppressive fire I'd be neck deep in scrapped character sheets. Even so, you better move fast, avoid knockdowns and fear the chunky salsa rules when fighting your way out of any small room. Even a flash bang can really ruin your weekend.

One thing that was often banging around in the back of my head while running SR3 was why corporate security doesn't mostly consist of drone armies which are going to be harder for PCs to kill than security guards wearing armor but at the same time don't have health and life insurance benefits you have to pay when they get taken out. The main reason I didn't do it that way was because I didn't have Rigger 3, and since I'd already run a lot of games with mostly enemy infantry, basically, I figured I'd just keep it that way for consistiency, and for not having to learn a lot of new rules and coordinate combat between drones and the PCs using those rules.

But, in spite of the fact that SR is supposed to be all gritty and violent, it would probably make a lot more sense for combat taking place on corporate property to instead run like an 80s cartoon show where nobody dies because instead they're just trashing endless streams of robots. It would be like Ninja Turtles, basically.

[Kagetenshi]

Permanent physical traps rarely make much sense in D&D much less a more "realistic" setting. Seriously, you are going to put a instant death trap in your workplace, a place where you walk down the hall every freakin day and you just hope it isn't on the fritz?

That is the idea behind a zero-zone.

That said, I agree that the monowire is out of place—if you want a lethal deathtrap, just make it a massive drop ceiling and avoid any concerns with people who can levitate or who might be acrobatic enough to catch the edge and climb out.

The place where the drop floor shines, IMO, is in its ability to counter "unstoppable" enemies—even if they take no damage from the fall, they're still stuck inside an oubliette, doubly so if you then close the floor back up on them. Make it manually controlled and it'd be an excellent thing to put at chokepoints in case security is finding itself overwhelmed by a Troll tank with a minigun or something.

(The big problem isn't making a good trap, it's making a trap that is both good and fun, which means that it must either be avoidable or activation must be recoverable.)

~J

[Angelone]

(The big problem isn't making a good trap, it's making a trap that is both good and fun, which means that it must either be avoidable or activation must be recoverable.)

~J

This. It wouldn't do at all to have the characters fall down a pit trap to starve to death, only to have their remains found by the next group of characters who fall down the same trap, only to starve to death.

Give me popup turrets, exploding squirrels, and staircases that turn into slides, but make it so they are avoidable or can be worked around. Don't stick me in a hole with no way out and no way to avoid it.

[knasser]

This. It wouldn't do at all to have the characters fall down a pit trap to starve to death, only to have their remains found by the next group of characters who fall down the same trap, only to starve to death.

I don't know. As GM, I think I'd rather enjoy that.

K.

[MikeKozar]

I find it helpful to color-code my floorplans.

• Blue Zones are the least secure, generally for black-ops labs or executive offices the security team needs to ignore; they're only monitored for emergency situations (smoke, heat, gunfire, chemical attacks).
• Green Zones are trusted; there is no mechanism in place to authenticate or attack people, but my security net monitors them at all times for suspicious behavior (microphones feed conversations into expert systems looking for threats or sedition, cameras check for strangers or people in unusual places) in addition to the emergency sensors from the Blue Zones.
• Yellow Zones are checkpoints. Employees are expected to pass through them when entering and exiting the facility, so they need to be able to process people quickly and safely, ideally without 'bothering' anyone important or missing threats. My personal favorites are the long hallway with one-way glass on one side, with suites of cyberware sensors, pressure plates, and other expensive scanners being run by a security team; you can have the same fun with elevators or revolving doors. Yellow Zones are set up to handle interdiction if something suspicious is detected; most corps demand non-lethal force here, since the executive buying the system will be personally walking through it. Heavy plexiglass walls that drop down to isolate persons of interest, knockout gas, electrical attacks, and of course a Heavy Response Team on speed dial.
• Red Zones are areas where no employee needs to go, but an insertion team might try to pass through. If the facility is in the country, and has big lawns, woods, or other landscaping, I try to make the landscaping a deathtrap. Anyone who is not approaching from the road is a threat, and needs to be maimed. Since the potential for friendly fire is dramatically reduced, systems are much less forgiving. Pop-up turrets, monowire, even classics like land mines. This needs to be coordinated with the security patrols, but Red Zones are supposed to be lethal.

The Zone system helps me organize a defense that feels logical to me - it has strengths and weaknesses, and balances protection with profitability. Remember that Corps do care about their employees, to the extent that they are assets with a nuyen value attached; murdering staff by mistake hurts the bottom line. At the same time, establishing chokepoints with transparent security apparatus in place means intruders can't simply narcojet/stunbolt everyone in a uniform and hope to walk right in - we are watching, we will notice, and we will take you down on our terms.


P.S.: If you can track down a copy of the Corporate Security Handbook, (Couldn't find it on BattleShop, but it is listed on eBay for around $16) it has write-ups on all the Corps' "Best Practices" for detection and interdiction. It also has a short fiction piece about a terrifyingly well-set-up corporate security office. Highly recommended, if you can get your hands on a copy.

[bernardo]

who cares about realistic traps? this is cyberpunk and I have the right to electrocute the intruder! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Whipstitch]

The main reason I didn't do it that way was because I didn't have Rigger 3, and since I'd already run a lot of games with mostly enemy infantry,

Yeah, I've ran games for many different groups due to my particular location and circumstances (lots of college students), which has some unique advantages and disadvantages. The high turn over means I can pull the same tricks without it getting too repetitive for the players. Likewise overhauling corp sites that run a lot of automated and physical countermeasures like remote locking doors and drones was an easy switch simply because so few of my prospective players have much expectations in regards to shadowrun to begin with. It also helps keep a handle on mages since they have to beat OR pretty much all the time and because stun and mind control spells lose a lot of their potency for obvious reasons. It creates situations where hackers and riggers can be pretty dominant for short periods of time, but I'm OK with that. I'm of the opinion that Hackers should have to handle themselves in much the same way as a Samurai does in the meat-- They can reasonably expect to win skirmishes and dominate a system for a while, but a prolonged holding action is going to get them killed when the backup comes in from offsite.

[Manunancy]

As the UWBR has, like RAW says, a frequency spectrum from at least Terahertz waves to Gigahertz, and is by RAW a pulsed frequency shifting system, possibly a random one… it's really not that distinctive at all like you think it is.

The way it's worded in both Arsenal and augmentation, the system use both and UWB and and a therahertz-frequency emitters. Not sending random signals all over the EM spectrum - which means monitoring the terahertz frequency band is enough to spot the system. And conssidering the system's wall-traversing abilitie, espcially for the high-end version, those pulses are going to be quite powerful. Which will make them stand out from the 'background noise' of random electromagnetic parasites. Especialy when you can triangulate the source in a place where by design there's no such emitter.

[Manunancy]

[*] Red Zones are areas where no employee needs to go, but an insertion team might try to pass through. If the facility is in the country, and has big lawns, woods, or other landscaping, I try to make the landscaping a deathtrap. Anyone who is not approaching from the road is a threat, and needs to be maimed. Since the potential for friendly fire is dramatically reduced, systems are much less forgiving. Pop-up turrets, monowire, even classics like land mines. This needs to be coordinated with the security patrols, but Red Zones are supposed to be lethal.

I'd still exercise some caution when trapping the landscaped zone around the place. A lawn decorated with the lawnmowing crew's guts isn't exactly good of morale. Or fraging the finance section's fourth of july barbeque..

[Rotbart van Dain...]

The way it's worded in both Arsenal and augmentation, the system use both and UWB and and a therahertz-frequency emitters.

Maybe – that still wouldn't change the fact it's a frequency shift system on both parts of the spectrum. So it' really doesn't change anything on that aspect, but would only allow the system to use two different signals at once.

Not sending random signals all over the EM spectrum - which means monitoring the terahertz frequency band is enough to spot the system.

Actually, the "sending random signals all over the EM spectrum" would be the definition of UWB.

And conssidering the system's wall-traversing abilitie, espcially for the high-end version, those pulses are going to be quite powerful. Which will make them stand out from the 'background noise' of random electromagnetic parasites.

Nope: It's Signal 2. That's a low-end commlink.

Especialy when you can triangulate the source in a place where by design there's no such emitter.

50 Meters.

[Saint Sithney]

UWB is a radio-frequency EM wave which pulses at a very low strength across a very large frequency range.
In fact, it uses the same long wave bands which a long-range Matrix device is supposed to be tuned to, so it might show up as a bit of local noise on channels which already see heavy traffic.

It is infeasible to listen specifically for UWB transmissions. It might be possible, if someone knows for a fact that it is being used, to isolate specific areas in the local wireless where noise is localized, but you would need some very specialized analog equipment. Like, if every 20m there were a radio frequency scanner specifically tasked to look for this.

But, even then, as RvD has already said, this is not significantly different from detecting a hidden wireless node.
I mean, imagine if runners were traveling though a complex, completely unawares that their precious hidden-mode comlink were broadcasting their position? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)