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KnightIII
One of my favorites:

The Drop Floor Trap: a 2 meter long section of hallway with pressure plates. Anything heavier than a mouse releases the locks. (the plate is controled by a terminal on the opposite side, of course.) The hole is 5 meters deep, but 2 meters down is a grill-threaded net of mono wire. Sanitation team of ghouls at the bottom optional. ("Mmm, french fries!")


Also fun:

Two way mirrors. Nothing like the over cocky street sammie pausing to make sure he looks good while the mage on the other side casts his manabolt.
jimbo
QUOTE (KnightIII @ Apr 16 2010, 05:54 PM) *
Sanitation team of ghouls at the bottom optional. ("Mmm, french fries!")


Niiiice
Starmage21
QUOTE (KnightIII @ Apr 16 2010, 05:54 PM) *
One of my favorites:

The Drop Floor Trap: a 2 meter long section of hallway with pressure plates. Anything heavier than a mouse releases the locks. (the plate is controled by a terminal on the opposite side, of course.) The hole is 5 meters deep, but 2 meters down is a grill-threaded net of mono wire. Sanitation team of ghouls at the bottom optional. ("Mmm, french fries!")


Also fun:

Two way mirrors. Nothing like the over cocky street sammie pausing to make sure he looks good while the mage on the other side casts his manabolt.


Problem 1: Magical support amongst the team comes at a premium here. Mage levitates the team-members over to the door for breaching, or the electronics guru to disarm the trap.

Problem 2: cybereyes are at a premium here for avoiding this one.

*note* in either case, some PCs will fail to think of either and fall helplessly into the trap. push the reset button on the game.
Patrick the Gnome
My favorite type of trap is when an organization that has a grudge against the PCs uses a contractor to hire them and lead them into an ambush.
Wounded Ronin
Rickroll them.
Summerstorm
I fell for this:

In some lawless area we raided a safehouse (old underground parking space).

When we left (can be used to enter too), the metal-net was down. So i left my safe armored car and wanted to tinker with the console at the side. Got to it and saw that it was an easy mechanism. Used it and BAM 10DV blast in mah face. The REAL opening mechanism was just a receiver. You need to send a code on a specific frequency. You cannot find it with scan, since it is only a receiver. Nasty and completely underhanded *g* I use that as a GM too.

Shinobi Killfist
Permanent physical traps rarely make much sense in D&D much less a more "realistic" setting. Seriously, you are going to put a instant death trap in your workplace, a place where you walk down the hall every freakin day and you just hope it isn't on the fritz?

Sure hire someone and lead them into an ambush, find the players hideout and set traps in it, but all the mono-wire death traps really don't make much sense in a place you plan to actually live and work. Non-lethal traps in important spots I can see in some situations, since they are non-lethal if they malfunction you can fix it, you can't fix dead.
KnightIII
One would not put a monowire death trap to guard their invoices for Kripsy Cremes. But the schmatics for their moon sized space station with a THOR Cannon? Possibly. The world we live in contains a multitude of such devices. For example, many high end banks have vault doors that will seal and suck all the air out. Electric fences that can stop the heart of a deer. Presure plates that release gases, often knock out, sometimes lethal. Even many airplanes are perfectly capable of depressurizing a cabin and knocking out the passengers there in.

The military loves deadly traps. Land mines, trip wires, spiked pit traps...

You dont trap the path leading to the janitors closet, but the Mona Lisa, Crown Jewels, Emperors Sword, or the plans for the Death Star... oh yeah.
Mongoose
QUOTE (KnightIII @ Apr 17 2010, 02:47 AM) *
You dont trap the path leading to the janitors closet, but the Mona Lisa, Crown Jewels, Emperors Sword, or the >>>plans for the Death Star<<<<... oh yeah.


Bad example, that last one. The plans to the Death Star are pretty useless if they are locked up where only a couple people can get at them. It takes THOUSANDS of people to design and build that thing, and they all need access to (sections of) the plans. As to the Mona Lisa... well, maybe. If you don't want it on public display, say in your (rather profitable) casino / resort complex. Honestly, most of those sound like McGuffins to motivate your players to get past the traps.

Anyhow, the best way to get past a trap is to be invited in. Social engeneering FTW.
Patrick the Gnome
Unless its a social trap. Poisoned food anyone?
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 17 2010, 04:21 AM) *
Unless its a social trap. Poisoned food anyone?


Yeah, i like that too. But it has to be some "exotic" (say: bullshit) poison which will kick in in 24 hours unless you do something to get the antidote.

Back to physical traps: Yeah mostly they do not fit. But i like some paranoid people in the shadows have some. For example: Some killer lives in an ols cellar of an apartment building. To get to his rooms you need to walk through a tight long corridor. On one side there is the heating unit. an old boiler. Some pipes... PERFECT spot for a tiny sensor (visual in my case) and some "extra-pipes" nearly indistinguishable from the old ones (Threshold 3 with a -6 perception). If triggered they explode with glue/hard foam as well as normal neurostun gas one round later. Takes down anybody without a mask or internal air compartment, is cheap, nonlethal and deliously evil. Can be deactivated by wifi, of course one-way only (not detectable).
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (KnightIII @ Apr 16 2010, 09:47 PM) *
One would not put a monowire death trap to guard their invoices for Kripsy Cremes. But the schmatics for their moon sized space station with a THOR Cannon? Possibly. The world we live in contains a multitude of such devices. For example, many high end banks have vault doors that will seal and suck all the air out. Electric fences that can stop the heart of a deer. Presure plates that release gases, often knock out, sometimes lethal. Even many airplanes are perfectly capable of depressurizing a cabin and knocking out the passengers there in.

The military loves deadly traps. Land mines, trip wires, spiked pit traps...

You dont trap the path leading to the janitors closet, but the Mona Lisa, Crown Jewels, Emperors Sword, or the plans for the Death Star... oh yeah.


In virtually all the places where you see lethal traps you have one thing in common, your side doesn't really frequent the area. You generally just don't put traps in places you are going to be walking around and doing crap all day. Are some people insane enough to do so, sure. But in most cases you put traps where your enemies will be not where you will be. So no generally you wont lethally trap the mona lisa etc. Annoy, slow down, detain, knock out traps yeah in lots of cases those will be there. Lethal, not really because the one thing you count on in life is making a mistake. You will screw up and forget your super secret wi-fi decoder ring and get killed by your own trap, it will be broken and not accept your code etc.(think about how often any piece of tech you have screws up over the year, now do you want to have that same fail rate attached to a kill you switch) And yes again there are nut jobs in real life and fiction who will still do it, but it isn't something I'd plan into a building because of how rare it should be.

Again trap the runners hideouts, there own car etc, but don't trap your own home I don't care what you have in there.

In early edition trapped hallways were mentioned a lot, I think people wanted to add to much D&D into there SR.
Saint Sithney
UWB radar means you would have to disguise your trap to look like a regular feature of the walls, inside and out. Not easy.

Maybe a spaghetti-grid of electrically charged spooled wires set to shoot out of walls and magnetically attach to the opposite walls?
That's non-lethal, non-destructive and might be hidden, even from someone who can see through walls.
Manunancy
Here's a nasty trick I have pulled out on some PCs.

situations : they're coming into an appartement to snatch the occupant. The target's guard is doing rearguard action while the target leaves through the back door (helipad on the roof). At that stag the PCs are still out of the appartment

1) pops a lacrymo grenade in the hall then backs out toward the american style living room and open kitchen
2) open all the gaz burners, turns the lights off
3) puts a dressing mirror roughly facing the door
4) leaves trhough the back to join his principal

one ce PCs are through the door and rush in, the first to enter the living room spots a motion in the darkened room and shoots at it. The gun's flame ignite the gaz. "Boom".

A variant of the trick was to monitor an appatment from one floor under (vibration detectors, mikes, no active sensors). When some uninivted party gets in, explosives fixed under th floor go boom. Nasty and hard to detect, especially if you choose a radar-transparent explosive. The sensors are easily hidden within the light fixtures an wiring.
If you want to make sure even a radar won't spot the trap, use a gaz explosio, rather than explosives stuck under the floor.
Dakka Dakka
I'm not sure what type of gas you are talking about but the stuff that is delivered to your hous via pipes usually has certain strong smelling additives so that you don't accidentally blow yourself up. Even if not a chem sniffer would alert the intruders to the trap.

BTW what is a lacrymo grenade?

IMHO explosives needn't even be hidden from RADAR. If the intruders check for them they are considerably slowed so the mechanism was effective in aiding the escape. if you have no other agenda than killing certain people, a trap may not be the optimal solution. A more active way of dealing with them may be better.
Angelone
If one of my character was walking down a hallway and I fell into a monowire pit trap, there would be a great deal of RL violence and something or someone would possibly be set on fire.

I don't mind traps, I really don't or character death in general, what I mind is the gm going "Lol your character is dead because I said so". Which is exactly what the monowire trap is. Sure something like that might happen irl (if monowire existed) but it doesn't make for fun gaming. Before you know it every pc will have a telescoping staff and will probe everything with it and bog the game down.

Gm- You are in a hallway it's roughly ten meters long and two meters wide. There are pictures of the targets friends and family on the wall and a laundry hamper about halfway down it.
PCs- I pull out my staff and probe directly infront of me. What do I find?
GM- Nothing.
PCs- There's a trap somewhere I keep looking.
GM-...

Honestly it's no fun to me to worry about traps in every inch of wherever I am. I'm willing to bet a good number of people feel the same way. Especially if your players have any recent rl military experience where we are taught that a coke can could be an IED and will kill us.
Teulisch
well, traps can be on timers, only armed after hours when the office is closed. that way only security and the janitors have to worry about avoiding them. plus you can activate some of them during a red alert. one of the SOTA books talks about an ultrasonic weapon that was tied into the motion detector somewhere.

Now, the first thing you have to look at is what the SOTA sensors look like for the street sam. im SR4, this means radar-vision looking through unshielded walls. if its a serious trap, you have blocking paint. downside is cheapskates who dont cover all the areas, so you could see it from the floor above or below, or even from the next room (just not inside that room).

one of the best defenses for a building is to have a spirit on hand. its job is to observe and report, with a secondary job of doing basic 'accidents' to intruders.

as for actual traps, your really better off with nonlethal force whenever possible. pressure plates + shock-floors. glue-bombs. neurostun gas traps. unsecured computer with a hard drive full of porn (it will slow some runners down). when you move on to lethal force, its a bad idea to use too much area effect. ceiling gun turrets hard wired to the buildings security rigger are better at IFF. always ask yourself "what if this trap triggers while a valued employee is in the area of effect?" because your trying to stop extractions as well as protecting physical assets. also its bad for morale if the guards know your willing to kill them in a crossfire.
Stahlseele
Slipspray Dispensers built into the upper most stair in every floor. Or glue Guns. Or both.
Have them slip and fall down a set of stairs, then glue them to the ground while they are down.
Good old time style lock for a Key. And Finger/Handprint-Scanner built into the door-handle.
If you just break open the lock, you are in trouble.
You need to Grip the Handle with a Hand with the right set of Fingerprints/Handprint to open it without problems.
Omenowl
If it is a lethal trap odds are the area is unguarded. You trap things where people normally would not go and where you are trying to prevent entry. Duct work, sewers, poisonous/radioactive areas, walls, etc. Some of these traps would be to kill just animal infestation such as devil rats. There are other types of traps such as tank traps where the goal is to disable a vehicle. Unless it is a terrorist/freedom fighter where casualties and type of casualties don't matter traps would be discriminate and limited.

Basically walls with monowire on the top, separated by distance and electric fence finally with mines, turrets and guard towers. I think of the no man's land between North Korea and South Korea.

Most traps I would use are simple things such as elevators, corridors, etc. If there is a certain excessive weight or wrong control then the doors simply seal shut. If they need to they will pump in gas and wait for help to arrive. Deadmen tell no tales, but livings ones can be made to talk...

knasser
QUOTE (Teulisch @ Apr 17 2010, 05:53 PM) *
Now, the first thing you have to look at is what the SOTA sensors look like for the street sam. im SR4, this means radar-vision looking through unshielded walls. if its a serious trap, you have blocking paint.


I have a PC in my group that has radar sense. What he hasn't figured out yet, is that he's basically broadcasting his presence loud and clear to anything else that can sense radar. I'm patiently waiting until its appropriate to the the opposition that they encounter for this to become significant. But when it is, it's going to be very satisfying. Anyway, point is that you can use a PCs radar sense against them because a trap can trigger off it if you want.

But I think corps are unlikely to use traps. Only time I've ever had such in Shadowrun was with gangers setting a few traps in their tower blocks for the unwary or as defensive fortifications.

K.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 17 2010, 10:39 PM) *
What he hasn't figured out yet, is that he's basically broadcasting his presence loud and clear to anything else that can sense radar.

That would be a misconception on your part:

Contrary to Ultrasound, Radar Sensor / UWBR does not have a passive mode to detect/use other emitters. The only way you could detect it would be the rules for finding hidden nodes.
fistandantilus4.0
The Renraku Arcology during the shutdown time would certainly fit the the death traps. One of the writers straight out said that part of their intention for it was to give people the chance for a SR styled dungeon crawl. THat could still work depending on how you like it. Perhaps a couple of zero zones as well. But even on military installations IRL when you've got a lethal trap, such as mines, there's a big ass sign that says "MINE FIELD".

On the mono wire trap - wouldn't the falling floor knock most of the lines loose? What's their tensile strength?
Wounded Ronin
I'm pretty sure that if all you wanted to do was kill someone via a trap, there would be cheaper, easier, and equally effective ways to do that besides for a D&D style monowire pit trap.
Red-ROM
I like to frame my runner's for murder. I had a group retrieving things from a house in a rich neighborhood, and some goons showed up. they knocked out the goons and threw them in the trunk of their own car. They proceeded to take the goons car with them when they left. on the way out, they pass a police investigation of two murdered old people that the goons whacked to get into the gated community. Now the runners are driving around in the victim's car with two more people in the trunk
Patrick the Gnome
I think the corps could use traps that were both lethal and in areas of high traffic so long as the make sure that the traffic can be stopped/only happens during the day and the trap they use has to have power flowig to it in order to be dangerous. Something like an electrified floor across a hallway could be put up at the only entrance to the inside of a building because it's only when power is being sent to that trap that it becomes dangerous, and there are safety measures you can put into place to make unplanned activation of that trap impossible to happen outside of hacking the security system.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Apr 17 2010, 02:37 PM) *
I'm not sure what type of gas you are talking about but the stuff that is delivered to your hous via pipes usually has certain strong smelling additives so that you don't accidentally blow yourself up. Even if not a chem sniffer would alert the intruders to the trap.

BTW what is a lacrymo grenade?

IMHO explosives needn't even be hidden from RADAR. If the intruders check for them they are considerably slowed so the mechanism was effective in aiding the escape. if you have no other agenda than killing certain people, a trap may not be the optimal solution. A more active way of dealing with them may be better.


It was you basic piped vooking/heating gaz (wether natural gaz, reffinery lefotvers or town gaz, the it works the same). Lacrymo is synnonym for tear gaz - which means the PC's sense of smell was impared enough (or shut off through repeiratory filters/gaz mask) that they would fail to notice the smell.

The underfloor from teh next appartment trap was to destroy eveidences and hopefully destroy nosy investegators along with it.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 17 2010, 11:47 PM) *
That would be a misconception on your part:

Contrary to Ultrasound, Radar Sensor / UWBR does not have a passive mode to detect/use other emitters. The only way you could detect it would be the rules for finding hidden nodes.

I don't see any misconception

Since the thing doen't have a passive mode, it means it's on active emision mode any time you turn it on - which means you're happily radiating a very distinctive electromagnetic signature. Which can detected and identified for what it is in a heartbeat. Even basic ECM or ECCM gear will spot it before said gear even gets in range to be detected. Just spread around radio receptors tuned to the syste's ferquency and you'll be able to notice someone using the gear in the building. Link them with a bi of software and ou'll be able to triangulate the emitter's position to get your security right on top of them.

And if detecting the emissions of a 'see-through-the-walls' radar inside your facility doesn't scream 'intruder' to your security, you'd better change security.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 17 2010, 06:35 PM) *
I'm pretty sure that if all you wanted to do was kill someone via a trap, there would be cheaper, easier, and equally effective ways to do that besides for a D&D style monowire pit trap.


Agreed, particularly in a setting with freakin' drones, hackers and modern chemicals-- kamikaze tactics don't necessarily have to come at the cost of your own men anymore and monitoring such things remotely is eminently feasible with shadowrun tech. I think less in terms of "complex and instantly lethal" and more along the lines of "simple, obvious... but a pain in the ass." You know, stuff like full-height turnstiles that will give you a nice squirt of RFID tag loaded foam dyes (or even aerosol with nanotech) if the alarms have been tripped. That's not even a trap, really, it's just a mechanical means of keeping tabs on people who passed through an area during the emergency.

Anyway, as has been mentioned, elevators are a good way to killl your players-- my players learned rather quickly that you don't take the elevator on your way out unless you're damn certain that no silent alarm has been tripped; they're just too damn obvious/vulnerable and there's nothing saying that a corp can't have it set up so that the Security Spider can override the manual controls at will. You don't even have to make elevators directly lethal, just use them to stall the runners and keep them in a vulnerable position until the CRT arrives-- even the knockout gas idea posited earlier is stretching believability somewhat, but it is certainly possible, particularly when compared to monowire razorpits. Maybe it isn't foolproof, but escaping from a stalled elevator is a tricky business, particularly if doors are all sealed and a sec team is on hand to give you a nice nudge back down if you don't comply-- It's really a situation where it'd be much better to have the resident techies MacGuyver/Hack the lift back under control, since climbing your way out somehow can get pretty lethal pretty quick.

Even if you regain control you can't really expect cover on the way out of that elevator, so you better hope your Reaction is up to snuff when it comes time to get past any guards who are waiting for you. Corners and entry/exit points are basically treated like death traps by soldiers and police officers for a number of very good reasons. If it weren't for the generous way Sr4 handles suppressive fire I'd be neck deep in scrapped character sheets. Even so, you better move fast, avoid knockdowns and fear the chunky salsa rules when fighting your way out of any small room. Even a flash bang can really ruin your weekend.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 17 2010, 10:47 PM) *
That would be a misconception on your part:

Contrary to Ultrasound, Radar Sensor / UWBR does not have a passive mode to detect/use other emitters. The only way you could detect it would be the rules for finding hidden nodes.


A RADAR works by emitting electromagnetic waves. It can't work without doing so. It's perfectly reasonable to have devices that pick up radar signals - the RADAR device is itself such a device by necessity.
K.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 07:27 AM) *
I don't see any misconception

Let me show you.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 07:27 AM) *
which means you're happily radiating a very distinctive electromagnetic signature.

As the UWBR has, like RAW says, a frequency spectrum from at least Terahertz waves to Gigahertz, and is by RAW a pulsed frequency shifting system, possibly a random one… it's really not that distinctive at all like you think it is.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 07:27 AM) *
Which can detected and identified for what it is in a heartbeat.

The only RAW way is Detecting Hidden Nodes.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 07:27 AM) *
Just spread around radio receptors tuned to the syste's ferquency and you'll be able to notice someone using the gear in the building. Link them with a bi of software and ou'll be able to triangulate the emitter's position to get your security right on top of them.

Congratulation, you just described the RAW for TI Software – which uses Detecting Hidden Nodes. Look it up in Unwired.

Of course, "the syste's ferquency" part was wrong, anyway – but it doesn't matter by RAW.
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 08:34 AM) *
A RADAR works by emitting electromagnetic waves.

We are talking about the UWBR, not the RADAR.
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 08:34 AM) *
It's perfectly reasonable to have devices that pick up radar signals

A Commlink with Scan used for Detecting Hidden Nodes is, as would be a Radio Signal Scanner if they'd add Scan functionality (by RAW, it can't find Hidden Nodes), as would be an installation running TI software.
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 08:34 AM) *
the RADAR device is itself such a device by necessity.

Not in the way you seem to think it is: As it is a frequency shifting system, it is only tuned to it's own current frequency pattern. By RAW it has no passive mode like the Ultrasound system, thus it cannot be used to "see" other UWBRs by RAW – and as it is a Peripheral Node, it would require GM approval or clustering to run Scan on it for Detecting Hidden Nodes.



So… if you Track that Signal you finally found Detecting Hidden Nodes, you can determine it's location within 50 meters. Good luck using that for traps.
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 03:27 AM) *
Let me show you.

As the UWBR has, like RAW says, a frequency spectrum from at least Terahertz waves to Gigahertz, and is by RAW a pulsed frequency shifting system, possibly a random one… it's really not that distinctive at all like you think it is.

The only RAW way is Detecting Hidden Nodes.

Congratulation, you just described the RAW for TI Software – which uses Detecting Hidden Nodes. Look it up in Unwired.

Of course, "the syste's ferquency" part was wrong, anyway – but it doesn't matter by RAW.

We are talking about the UWBR, not the RADAR.

A Commlink with Scan used for Detecting Hidden Nodes is, as would be a Radio Signal Scanner if they'd add Scan functionality (by RAW, it can't find Hidden Nodes), as would be an installation running TI software.

Not in the way you seem to think it is: As it is a frequency shifting system, it is only tuned to it's own current frequency pattern. By RAW it has no passive mode like the Ultrasound system, thus it cannot be used to "see" other UWBRs by RAW – and as it is a Peripheral Node, it would require GM approval or clustering to run Scan on it for Detecting Hidden Nodes.



So… if you Track that Signal you finally found Detecting Hidden Nodes, you can determine it's location within 50 meters. Good luck using that for traps.


UWBR = Ultra Wide Band RADAR?

Also, he's talking about a specific instance of him using real life to dictate the rules in his game, which means that RAW can suck it. If he wants to have the radar sensor be detectable by things that detect radar waves in a game he's running, there's no reason I can see to stop him, and it would seem that RL would agree with his interpretation.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 18 2010, 09:55 AM) *
UWBR = Ultra Wide Band ]RADAR?

There UWBR and there is RADAR in Shadowrun, using different rules.
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 18 2010, 09:55 AM) *
Also, he's talking about a specific instance of him using real life to dictate the rules in his game, which means that RAW can suck it.

When using a random frequency shifting system, that instance can suck it as well – or be triggered by the slightest random noise on that whole spectrum.
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 18 2010, 09:55 AM) *
If he wants to have the radar sensor be detectable by things that detect radar waves in a game he's running, there's no reason I can see to stop him […]

We can't stop him having pigs fly either – just pointing out they don't by RAW (and RL) and any belief they would, would be a misconception.
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 18 2010, 09:55 AM) *
[…] and it would seem that RL would agree with his interpretation.

Or not.
knasser
n/m
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 10:02 AM) *
We are talking about the UWBR, not the RADAR.


I'm talking about the RADAR sensor in the Augmentation book. That should be fairly clear from my post. There's nothing under the description of it in that says you use the rules for detecting Hidden Nodes to detect it. It just says the device uses "short stepped -frequency pulses". RADAR works by sending out pulses and listening for the responses. If the RADAR Sensor implant didn't emit pulses, it would be of no more use than a torch which you didn't turn on. That much is obvious. Now where did you get the stuff about it using rapidly changing frequencies and having to use the Hidden Node rules to detect it? Your own invention?

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 10:02 AM) *
We can't stop him having pigs fly either – just pointing out they don't by RAW (and RL) and any belief they would, would be a misconception.


I think most of us would consider there be to a substantial difference between "allowing a device that emits signals to be detected by a device that detects those signals" and "allowing pigs to fly." Using hyperbole like this undermines your point. Though your point seems to be that you object to my suggesting a character with a RADAR emitter in their head might be giving away their presence to devices which are looking for RADAR signals.

K.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 11:45 AM) *
No, I'm talking about RADAR[…]

Then you are talking about something unrelated to the issue at hand.
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 11:45 AM) *
I think most of us would consider there be to a substantial difference between "allowing a device that emits signals to be detected by a device that detects those signals" and "allowing pigs to fly."

Not really, in Shadowrun: There are both rules for that… rules that have certain restrictions.
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 12:11 PM) *
Then you are talking about something unrelated to the issue at hand.


I'm talking about what I'm talking about. I'm not concerned with your issues. If you're replying to something I said, then you're talking about what I'm talking about.

QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 12:11 PM) *
QUOTE (knasser)

I think most of us would consider there be to a substantial difference between "allowing a device that emits signals to be detected by a device that detects those signals" and "allowing pigs to fly." Using hyperbole like this undermines your point.


Not really, in Shadowrun: There are both rules for that… rules that have certain restrictions.


Not sure what you're trying to say, there. You're saying that most people wouldn't consider there to be a substantial difference between a GM saying "your RADAR emitting device has been detected by a device that detects RADAR emissions" and Pigasus, because that's what I said and which you are replying to?

K.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:26 PM) *
If you're replying to something I said, then you're talking about what I'm talking about.

Not more than you do. wink.gif
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:26 PM) *
Not sure what you're trying to say, there.

Given:
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:26 PM) *
I'm talking about what I'm talking about. I'm not concerned with your issues.

It's a moot point anyway, right? biggrin.gif

But, for reference:
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:26 PM) *
[…]Pigasus[…]

It would be Sparrowpig, actually. grinbig.gif
knasser
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 12:32 PM) *
Not more than you do. wink.gif


Ah, but I had the first post on the subject, so you're talking about what I'm talking about. wink.gif But if we're merely trying to talk about separate things and failing, then it's all a bit silly. biggrin.gif Personally, I'm just looking forward to the moment when my "Can I see it with my radar sense (repeated x100)" player goes up against similar level opposition (he's way overpowered for the opposition they have at the moment because the group isn't smart enough to survive against equal level opposition) and finds his favourite toy is broadcasting his presence. At that point, he's going to have to start thinking about it in more tactical terms, rather than as a freebie.

QUOTE
It would be Sparrowpig, actually. grinbig.gif


I'm more of the falling cows school than flying pigs, anyway. wink.gif

Peace,

Khadim.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:42 PM) *
Ah, but I had the first post on the subject, so you're talking about what I'm talking about.

I chose to disregard the possibility that said SC drags a lunchbox-sized RADAR around, using Vehicle Sensor Tests to spot things, rather than him having an UWBR / Radar Sensor vision system and you just using an ambiguous term. wink.gif
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:42 PM) *
Personally, I'm just looking forward to the moment when my "Can I see it with my radar sense (repeated x100)" player goes up against similar level opposition […] and finds his favourite toy is broadcasting his presence.

The thing I'm trying to point out is that it doesn't broadcast his presence any more than his Commlink in Hidden Mode. Given it's a directional system, it would broadcast it less… because only broadcasting in the cone he can actually see.

So while yes, it is an active vision system allowing you to be detected by it's use, it's much harder to detect than Ultrasound or a flashlight. Because there is no corresponding automatic passive detection method (High frequency hearing, Ultrasound in passive mode or plain old eyeball MK I). It has a Signal and thus can be detected as per Electronic Warfare Rules (with the restriction of it being a directional emission – not that it matters much for a TI).
QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 18 2010, 12:42 PM) *
At that point, he's going to have to start thinking about it in more tactical terms, rather than as a freebie.

Keep in mind that attacks only using that vision system would suffer the Complete Darkness modifier, like ultrasound.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Apr 18 2010, 02:12 AM) *
Agreed, particularly in a setting with freakin' drones, hackers and modern chemicals-- kamikaze tactics don't necessarily have to come at the cost of your own men anymore and monitoring such things remotely is eminently feasible with shadowrun tech. I think less in terms of "complex and instantly lethal" and more along the lines of "simple, obvious... but a pain in the ass." You know, stuff like full-height turnstiles that will give you a nice squirt of RFID tag loaded foam dyes (or even aerosol with nanotech) if the alarms have been tripped. That's not even a trap, really, it's just a mechanical means of keeping tabs on people who passed through an area during the emergency.

Anyway, as has been mentioned, elevators are a good way to killl your players-- my players learned rather quickly that you don't take the elevator on your way out unless you're damn certain that no silent alarm has been tripped; they're just too damn obvious/vulnerable and there's nothing saying that a corp can't have it set up so that the Security Spider can override the manual controls at will. You don't even have to make elevators directly lethal, just use them to stall the runners and keep them in a vulnerable position until the CRT arrives-- even the knockout gas idea posited earlier is stretching believability somewhat, but it is certainly possible, particularly when compared to monowire razorpits. Maybe it isn't foolproof, but escaping from a stalled elevator is a tricky business, particularly if doors are all sealed and a sec team is on hand to give you a nice nudge back down if you don't comply-- It's really a situation where it'd be much better to have the resident techies MacGuyver/Hack the lift back under control, since climbing your way out somehow can get pretty lethal pretty quick.

Even if you regain control you can't really expect cover on the way out of that elevator, so you better hope your Reaction is up to snuff when it comes time to get past any guards who are waiting for you. Corners and entry/exit points are basically treated like death traps by soldiers and police officers for a number of very good reasons. If it weren't for the generous way Sr4 handles suppressive fire I'd be neck deep in scrapped character sheets. Even so, you better move fast, avoid knockdowns and fear the chunky salsa rules when fighting your way out of any small room. Even a flash bang can really ruin your weekend.



One thing that was often banging around in the back of my head while running SR3 was why corporate security doesn't mostly consist of drone armies which are going to be harder for PCs to kill than security guards wearing armor but at the same time don't have health and life insurance benefits you have to pay when they get taken out. The main reason I didn't do it that way was because I didn't have Rigger 3, and since I'd already run a lot of games with mostly enemy infantry, basically, I figured I'd just keep it that way for consistiency, and for not having to learn a lot of new rules and coordinate combat between drones and the PCs using those rules.

But, in spite of the fact that SR is supposed to be all gritty and violent, it would probably make a lot more sense for combat taking place on corporate property to instead run like an 80s cartoon show where nobody dies because instead they're just trashing endless streams of robots. It would be like Ninja Turtles, basically.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Apr 16 2010, 08:10 PM) *
Permanent physical traps rarely make much sense in D&D much less a more "realistic" setting. Seriously, you are going to put a instant death trap in your workplace, a place where you walk down the hall every freakin day and you just hope it isn't on the fritz?

That is the idea behind a zero-zone.

That said, I agree that the monowire is out of place—if you want a lethal deathtrap, just make it a massive drop ceiling and avoid any concerns with people who can levitate or who might be acrobatic enough to catch the edge and climb out.

The place where the drop floor shines, IMO, is in its ability to counter "unstoppable" enemies—even if they take no damage from the fall, they're still stuck inside an oubliette, doubly so if you then close the floor back up on them. Make it manually controlled and it'd be an excellent thing to put at chokepoints in case security is finding itself overwhelmed by a Troll tank with a minigun or something.

(The big problem isn't making a good trap, it's making a trap that is both good and fun, which means that it must either be avoidable or activation must be recoverable.)

~J
Angelone
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Apr 18 2010, 09:50 AM) *
(The big problem isn't making a good trap, it's making a trap that is both good and fun, which means that it must either be avoidable or activation must be recoverable.)

~J


This. It wouldn't do at all to have the characters fall down a pit trap to starve to death, only to have their remains found by the next group of characters who fall down the same trap, only to starve to death.

Give me popup turrets, exploding squirrels, and staircases that turn into slides, but make it so they are avoidable or can be worked around. Don't stick me in a hole with no way out and no way to avoid it.
knasser
QUOTE (Angelone @ Apr 18 2010, 05:44 PM) *
This. It wouldn't do at all to have the characters fall down a pit trap to starve to death, only to have their remains found by the next group of characters who fall down the same trap, only to starve to death.


I don't know. As GM, I think I'd rather enjoy that.

K.
MikeKozar
I find it helpful to color-code my floorplans.
  • Blue Zones are the least secure, generally for black-ops labs or executive offices the security team needs to ignore; they're only monitored for emergency situations (smoke, heat, gunfire, chemical attacks).
  • Green Zones are trusted; there is no mechanism in place to authenticate or attack people, but my security net monitors them at all times for suspicious behavior (microphones feed conversations into expert systems looking for threats or sedition, cameras check for strangers or people in unusual places) in addition to the emergency sensors from the Blue Zones.
  • Yellow Zones are checkpoints. Employees are expected to pass through them when entering and exiting the facility, so they need to be able to process people quickly and safely, ideally without 'bothering' anyone important or missing threats. My personal favorites are the long hallway with one-way glass on one side, with suites of cyberware sensors, pressure plates, and other expensive scanners being run by a security team; you can have the same fun with elevators or revolving doors. Yellow Zones are set up to handle interdiction if something suspicious is detected; most corps demand non-lethal force here, since the executive buying the system will be personally walking through it. Heavy plexiglass walls that drop down to isolate persons of interest, knockout gas, electrical attacks, and of course a Heavy Response Team on speed dial.
  • Red Zones are areas where no employee needs to go, but an insertion team might try to pass through. If the facility is in the country, and has big lawns, woods, or other landscaping, I try to make the landscaping a deathtrap. Anyone who is not approaching from the road is a threat, and needs to be maimed. Since the potential for friendly fire is dramatically reduced, systems are much less forgiving. Pop-up turrets, monowire, even classics like land mines. This needs to be coordinated with the security patrols, but Red Zones are supposed to be lethal.


The Zone system helps me organize a defense that feels logical to me - it has strengths and weaknesses, and balances protection with profitability. Remember that Corps do care about their employees, to the extent that they are assets with a nuyen value attached; murdering staff by mistake hurts the bottom line. At the same time, establishing chokepoints with transparent security apparatus in place means intruders can't simply narcojet/stunbolt everyone in a uniform and hope to walk right in - we are watching, we will notice, and we will take you down on our terms.


P.S.: If you can track down a copy of the Corporate Security Handbook, (Couldn't find it on BattleShop, but it is listed on eBay for around $16) it has write-ups on all the Corps' "Best Practices" for detection and interdiction. It also has a short fiction piece about a terrifyingly well-set-up corporate security office. Highly recommended, if you can get your hands on a copy.

bernardo
who cares about realistic traps? this is cyberpunk and I have the right to electrocute the intruder! silly.gif
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Apr 18 2010, 10:36 AM) *
The main reason I didn't do it that way was because I didn't have Rigger 3, and since I'd already run a lot of games with mostly enemy infantry,


Yeah, I've ran games for many different groups due to my particular location and circumstances (lots of college students), which has some unique advantages and disadvantages. The high turn over means I can pull the same tricks without it getting too repetitive for the players. Likewise overhauling corp sites that run a lot of automated and physical countermeasures like remote locking doors and drones was an easy switch simply because so few of my prospective players have much expectations in regards to shadowrun to begin with. It also helps keep a handle on mages since they have to beat OR pretty much all the time and because stun and mind control spells lose a lot of their potency for obvious reasons. It creates situations where hackers and riggers can be pretty dominant for short periods of time, but I'm OK with that. I'm of the opinion that Hackers should have to handle themselves in much the same way as a Samurai does in the meat-- They can reasonably expect to win skirmishes and dominate a system for a while, but a prolonged holding action is going to get them killed when the backup comes in from offsite.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Apr 18 2010, 10:27 AM) *
As the UWBR has, like RAW says, a frequency spectrum from at least Terahertz waves to Gigahertz, and is by RAW a pulsed frequency shifting system, possibly a random one… it's really not that distinctive at all like you think it is.


The way it's worded in both Arsenal and augmentation, the system use both and UWB and and a therahertz-frequency emitters. Not sending random signals all over the EM spectrum - which means monitoring the terahertz frequency band is enough to spot the system. And conssidering the system's wall-traversing abilitie, espcially for the high-end version, those pulses are going to be quite powerful. Which will make them stand out from the 'background noise' of random electromagnetic parasites. Especialy when you can triangulate the source in a place where by design there's no such emitter.


Manunancy
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Apr 18 2010, 06:47 PM) *
[*] Red Zones are areas where no employee needs to go, but an insertion team might try to pass through. If the facility is in the country, and has big lawns, woods, or other landscaping, I try to make the landscaping a deathtrap. Anyone who is not approaching from the road is a threat, and needs to be maimed. Since the potential for friendly fire is dramatically reduced, systems are much less forgiving. Pop-up turrets, monowire, even classics like land mines. This needs to be coordinated with the security patrols, but Red Zones are supposed to be lethal.


I'd still exercise some caution when trapping the landscaped zone around the place. A lawn decorated with the lawnmowing crew's guts isn't exactly good of morale. Or fraging the finance section's fourth of july barbeque..
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 09:21 PM) *
The way it's worded in both Arsenal and augmentation, the system use both and UWB and and a therahertz-frequency emitters.

Maybe – that still wouldn't change the fact it's a frequency shift system on both parts of the spectrum. So it' really doesn't change anything on that aspect, but would only allow the system to use two different signals at once.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 09:21 PM) *
Not sending random signals all over the EM spectrum - which means monitoring the terahertz frequency band is enough to spot the system.

Actually, the "sending random signals all over the EM spectrum" would be the definition of UWB.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 09:21 PM) *
And conssidering the system's wall-traversing abilitie, espcially for the high-end version, those pulses are going to be quite powerful. Which will make them stand out from the 'background noise' of random electromagnetic parasites.

Nope: It's Signal 2. That's a low-end commlink.
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 18 2010, 09:21 PM) *
Especialy when you can triangulate the source in a place where by design there's no such emitter.

50 Meters.
Saint Sithney
UWB is a radio-frequency EM wave which pulses at a very low strength across a very large frequency range.
In fact, it uses the same long wave bands which a long-range Matrix device is supposed to be tuned to, so it might show up as a bit of local noise on channels which already see heavy traffic.

It is infeasible to listen specifically for UWB transmissions. It might be possible, if someone knows for a fact that it is being used, to isolate specific areas in the local wireless where noise is localized, but you would need some very specialized analog equipment. Like, if every 20m there were a radio frequency scanner specifically tasked to look for this.

But, even then, as RvD has already said, this is not significantly different from detecting a hidden wireless node.
I mean, imagine if runners were traveling though a complex, completely unawares that their precious hidden-mode comlink were broadcasting their position? indifferent.gif
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