CGL speculation #6 Options

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm not saying they should buy anything. I'm saying that their asinine assumptions that they're somehow in a position to determine the fate of... well, anything... is absolutely absurd. I also have no doubt that they're full of shit because if they didn't enjoy the game, they wouldn't be getting their feathers ruffled to begin with. If the game continues with CGL, they'll still be there with book in hand despite all their blustering and trying to act "cool" by rebelling against "the Man."

Just like everyone who bitches about a new edition, or a license changing hands, or anything and everything else you can think of.

[Arclight]

After this post, I'd love to see them trying.

I cannot stop buying product, because I did with the release of 4th Ed. So I am one of these people that bitch but still buy books, in your opinion. Which is simply false.

Also, a lot of people might not post here, but still stop buying. Customers can simply vote with their feet.

[Athenor]

If these people are going to achieve nothing by this, why are you so viciously acting against them? Fear, you might be proven wrong?

Why should these people buy product from a company that drove away respected contributers to the game, while voicing a boycott because of ethics?

Just because it's Shadowrun?

No one is telling anyone to do anything past wait and see. We don't know what the company will look like in 1 month. Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous.

It's one of the great fallacies of the internet to believe that even a large minority of the user base is represented by a forum. Granted, Shadowrun's community is smaller, and a link to Dumpshock has been put in the beginning of many books. BUT! that doesn't mean people are following this. This isn't something the mainstream media is going to cover, and we all know how little people even follow that in this day and age.

No.. All anyone are doing in posting here is either venting their frustration or trying to influence people who -do- have a say in the future of the game. And that may even be overstepping my bounds (for instance, we have no clue the true reasons why people quit, nor is it any of our business). So at that point you ask yourself: with as little information as everyone here has, what do they hope to accomplish?

Gonna relate a little story about a man whom I have very little respect for. There is a former journalist for IGN by the name of Matt Cassamassia. He did his job, got connections in the gaming industry, and broke the news on quite a bit of things regarding Nintendo in the late 90's and early part of the decade. He had a platform, one that was fairly visible, and insiders who fed him information. Hell, he even created a forum dedicated to telling information to the outside populace that was under an informal NDA, where he invited influential people. I know -- I was a member for years. But then, things started to change. Matt started to think he knew better than the people who ran Nintendo. He may have, who knows, it's not my place to judge. But over time, his writings changed. In public, he criticized Nintendo games for not matching his standards. In private, he fumed over inactivity and how he felt people were being treated. Again, I was a second-hand witness, so I can't comment.. But nothing got him madder than when Nintendo purged Silicon Knights, Rare, and Factor 5 from their 2nd and 3rd party ("freelancer") positions. That's where all his contacts were, after all, and the ones who were making games that fit his vision.

Matt, in my opinion, forgot that even though he had a position to speak from, he was still just one man. His vision was no more or less valid than anyone else's. Now, we all believe in this world that all it takes is one man to change things; however, it takes others listening to that man for the change to happen. As people stopped listening to Matt, as his cult of personality dissolved around him.. Well, I don't know what happened, as I stopped following him as I got more and more disgusted at how he acted. I even called him out on it a few times personally. And to be quite frank, I think that he had at least some to do with the quality of IGN's writing over the last decade. It's not fair to blame everything on him.. but hey.


I need to make it perfectly clear that these situations are NOT analogous. To my knowledge there is no corruption, embezzlement, cooked books, or other shady dealings going on with Nintendo. (Microsoft during that era is another story, and a part of the discussion I'm leaving out, but hey). I don't tell this story to say Loren is in the right and all the people being vocal are wrong. I tell this story to reiterate: One voice is just that -- a single point in the discussion. There are other voices out there. Some are silent, some are supportive, some are negative. And in this case, squeaky wheels are just making a lot of noise as they rattle around. We haven't heard what is going on inside Catalyst. My guess is that the owners are focused on getting their act cleaned up enough to retain the license, and then from there they'll take as much action as they can. United front and all that. I don't begrudge others from trying to get the license away from Catalyst for what they've done, nor do I feel it is wrong for others to try and put forward their own proposals for the license. But never, ever, for one second believe that this forum constitutes the entirety of the discussion.

Shadowrun will go on. As long as corporations are greedy fucking bastards, Shadowrun will go on. As long as people wish to be vigilantes, Shadowrun will go on. As long as people dream of being elves, dwarves, orks, or badass motherfuckers, Shadowrun will go on. As long as game developers are influenced by Shadowrun, it will go on. And most importantly: As long as you own the books, be them by FASA, FanPro, or Catalyst... Shadowrun will go on.

So please, please, try to avoid being holier than thou. We're all chummers around here, right?

Edit:

[ Spoiler ]

I'm well aware I'm being holier than thou in telling you all to not be holier than thou. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[darthmord]

And there it is again.

The microscopically small vocal minority is exactly that. You don't have the power to ensure jack squat, no matter how much you brood and sneer from your tiny little corner of the World Wide Web. In fact, I have no doubt that you and the others in the minority would be the first in line to get any new published works just so you can justify your seething hatred of some guy who didn't even have a thing to do with writing the book itself.

Start putting up notes / starting discussions at your FLGS regarding the situation and word will spread rather fast. Word of Mouth is still a highly regarded form of advertising.

It's not *that* hard to turn a motivated minority into a motivated majority. Yes, it does take effort but to dismiss out of hand a motivated minority? That's foolishness and you are certainly smart enough to know that Doc F.

[Athenor]

Start putting up notes / starting discussions at your FLGS regarding the situation and word will spread rather fast. Word of Mouth is still a highly regarded form of advertising.

It's not *that* hard to turn a motivated minority into a motivated majority. Yes, it does take effort but to dismiss out of hand a motivated minority? That's foolishness and you are certainly smart enough to know that Doc F.

there are thousands of gaming stores in the country. The majority are independently owned, and probably don't bring in a ton of money.

This plan assumes two things: That every single one of those stores has someone who is a regular at these forums, and that every single one of those people is wanting to see Catalyst shut down via boycott...

No, the more likely scenario is that all the store owners/operators are aware of the situation. They are the main vehicle of information for a store, after all. They order the product, they push the product, they promote.. because their livelihoods depend on it. And the owners/operators would be the ones to feel the pain from a boycott, because they've already bought the books -- The distributors have already gotten their money, and CGL has already gotten its money from the distributors (in theory). So all a boycott at the store level would do is hurt the FLGS, and I highly doubt the FLGS would support that. They may not order more product after they sell out, but that would be the extent of it.

And what's worse, this plan ignores the fact that there are sellers like Barnes & Noble/Borders, Amazon, and online stores out there. None of these companies care about the politics of the books they carry; they just sell 'em. So you aren't going to get them to boycott.


As I said above: The best option is to wait and see, and don't treat this like some massive war. No one is asking you to be silent on the issue, just see it from all sides. If you choose not to buy any more Shadowrun books, that is your prerogative. If you choose to inform people of this situation, good on you -- as long as you let them make their own decisions and conclusions, and be honest in your discussion. Anything less than this is being unfair.

[Crusader3025]

Not sure where to post this, but I know JM Hardy watches this topic and this is addressed to him. If the question's been answered somewhere else just direct me to that. Otherwise here goes: I was at GenCon last year and went to the SR seminar. So I have a fair idea of what's going to be in War, the Sixth World Almanac and the Runner's Toolkit. I recall hearing or seeing mention of a book titled Attitude. At least I think that was the title. Could you comment on what that will be? If it's too far out and you can't comment I understand. I hope this whole thing gets sorted out and I get to see you guys again at Origins and GenCon. I've been a FASA customer since before BT and SR (anybody remember their old Traveller deck plans?) and I really want to see the line continue. Thanks!

[JM Hardy]

Not sure where to post this, but I know JM Hardy watches this topic and this is addressed to him. If the question's been answered somewhere else just direct me to that. Otherwise here goes: I was at GenCon last year and went to the SR seminar. So I have a fair idea of what's going to be in War, the Sixth World Almanac and the Runner's Toolkit. I recall hearing or seeing mention of a book titled Attitude. At least I think that was the title. Could you comment on what that will be? If it's too far out and you can't comment I understand. I hope this whole thing gets sorted out and I get to see you guys again at Origins and GenCon. I've been a FASA customer since before BT and SR (anybody remember their old Traveller deck plans?) and I really want to see the line continue. Thanks!

There is indeed a book called Attitude in the works. I haven't said a lot about it yet, so I'm going to keep playing this one close to the vest, but some of the topics it covers are sports, the music scene, and life as a celebrity runner. Among other very fun stuff.

Jason H.

[Crusader3025]

Sounds a lot like the old Shadowbeat book. One of my favorites as it covers sports, music, media etc. A really cool book and if that's the plan go for it. I'll buy one. I've already had my players interact with members of the Tacoma Timberwolves in a neighborhood bar and they really got into it. A couple of my players are good ole boys from the CAS (pair of dwarves if you can believe that!) and they definitely get into the sports scene. Plus a sourcebook which give me tools to integrate the media into my campaign would be real useful come next fall.

[Athenor]

The sports/entertainment coverage in SotA: '63 and '64 was my favorite parts of those books too. Honestly, I -REALLY- miss the SotA books. They represented an awesome way to counter the idea of power creep; instead of releasing new versions of the "core" book, you introduced these smaller books that encompassed upgrades to everything and updated some major and minor points of the plot. They're probably the thing I miss the most in 4th, and I hope someday the game gets back to a position where books like that can be made again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

I'm not saying they should buy anything. I'm saying that their asinine assumptions that they're somehow in a position to determine the fate of... well, anything... is absolutely absurd. I also have no doubt that they're full of shit because if they didn't enjoy the game, they wouldn't be getting their feathers ruffled to begin with. If the game continues with CGL, they'll still be there with book in hand despite all their blustering and trying to act "cool" by rebelling against "the Man."

Just like everyone who bitches about a new edition, or a license changing hands, or anything and everything else you can think of.

All the name calling and pissy ranting aside, I disagree with this to a point.

Disregarding any part of your player base in a business that has a fairly limited one to start with is not wise.

Yes Dumpshock is a minority of Shadowrun players, but they are vocal.

Those following this thread and others like it are surely telling folks what they read here. I know I do.

Word of mouth in a small concentrated SOCIAL business, is strong. All it takes is one guy on Dumpshock reading this to talk to his entire gaming group. We can't game alone after all. So word of mouth on topics such as these is actually a force multiplier. One guy becomes 4 or 5 that know about the troubles.

of those 4 or 5, all it takes is one of them talking at the local game store about it and the next person takes it to HIS game group and poof you're a snow ball rolling down hill.

Discounting people here like their thoughts and opinions don't matter. Calling them names (( yeah that'll help)) making them feel like you're daring them to carry out their threats, isn't going to have inverse effect. Pissing them off in an attempt of reverse psychology isn't going to work. They WILL stop buying the books if you make them mad.

They don't have to buy the books. You can find every 4th edition shadow run book for free in about 5 seconds except for 'Vice'. If they want to read and complain as you say above they'll down load those PDFs and do so, but they'll keep their money in their pockets. I'm a collector. I buy the hard copies to have in hand. but other than Vice. __EVERY__ 4th edition book is there on the net 100% free, DL takes about 10 minutes total. About a minute a book.

Throw names at your pissed off minority if you want. Berate them for feeling like 'voting with their wallets' is stupid. It will bite ya in the butt. The RPG industry is shrinking still. Video games and MMO's are eating up their numbers every day. Fewer people are doing table top RPGs. Driving off more isn't going to help a company under lawsuits for one of the owners robbing the company blind and not paying it's writers.

Are the numbers here on Dumpshock Small compared to the entire player (( and thus consumer)) base? Yes.

Do their ideas filter out into their game groups and multiply? Yes.

Is the Player/consumer base so LARGE that you can afford to thumb your noses at the ones so loyal and dedicated that they seek out Shadowrun on line? No. Not nearly.

[Athenor]

When I talked to Mike Mulvahill in 2000 about edition changes, he quoted a number that is used as a baseline for how many people leave the game with each edition change. When stuff like this gets stirred up, a percentage leave. A percentage of players steal content. It should all be figured into the business model. Even what is going on now has been accounted for. But i once again reiterate that the number of people who even know about the financial situation is quite a bit smaller than the gaming population who plays Shadowrun. I've been telling my players the situation as well, it's the nature of humanity to comment on things. It also leads to baseless gossip.

I'm not berating anyone. I'm not begrudging anyone for being pissed. I am trying to convince people to see things from all sides.

(Also, you will never, EVER see me encourage theft of product. That's where you see me draw the line, and I've told off friends who have pointed me to illegal PDF's before.)

Final note: I'm gonna sound dickish/pretentious here, but on the whole listening to your user base thing, I'm just gonna quote this: "He's not the hero we want, he's the hero we need." (butchered, I know). It's a long standing mantra that people don't know what they really want, and this place especially. I've seen Dumpshock devolve into the minutiae of rules discussion that would make a quantum theorist's head spin. It seems almost as if people lose focus on the game itself in those talks, which only serves to hurt things. If that was all the game about, then I personally feel the game would be hurt long-term. Now think about all the realities of what it would take to switch who owns the license. How many people would lose their jobs? How much money would be lost? How many players would leave the game? Would the game be stronger afterwards? Would there still be a game afterwards? It's a very real possibility that Topps may revoke the licensing to print RPG books for Shadowrun and Battletech alltogether, right? So is the cost worth it? I'll keep my own thoughts on that to myself. Just don't presume that what the individual wants is the right thing in all circumstances.

[Athenor]

(Jeez, I keep double-posting! I'm so sorry, I need to learn how to delete these.)

[Crusader3025]

Not sure if the SOTA books are profitable enough to keep making them. Depending on page count could that be something done as a web update? Or just as a pdf for sale? Just my two nuyen on the topic. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Pepsi Jedi]

Small note. I'm not advocating theft of product on the pirated PDFs. I"m just saying. Calling people that are debating 'voting with their wallets' Asinine and foolish and stupid minoritys that don't matter. Saying that they'll buy the books anyway just to bitch and moan, is not correct.

:: Edit, to avoid being confused with avocation of action. ::

I'm not saying downloading them for free is right. (( I've paid for mine.)) I'm saying it's an ----amazingly easy------ option for those that are not happy. Berating them will only drive them to that option faster.

[JM Hardy]

Just a quick jump in here to say it is neither CGL's nor my policy to just write off people who are angry. My main strategy to bring them back to CGL, if it is possible, remains the central benchmarks I've pointed out--paying freelancers, conducting business properly, and releasing quality products.

Jason H.

[Athenor]

If I made it sound like "accounting for" meant writing off, I apologize. I didn't mention how much 3rd helped grow Shadowrun's player base, or the phenomenal success 4th has had. While you may lose some players during an edition change, the point is to bring them -back-. For Dumpshock, whatever goes down in the next 3-4 weeks is going to be akin to an edition change, in my mind.

[DireRadiant]

A reminder that "No posts that contain pirated materials, requests for pirated materials, or advocacy of pirating are permitted."

Note that a post describing how to perform a search for pirated materials could be construed as supporting such activities, especially if brought up multiple times.


On a more enlightening note, your Moderators are very busy reviewing many posts in this thread. It just takes time to work through all of it.

[knasser]

They don't have to buy the books. You can find every 4th edition shadow run book for free in about 5 seconds except for 'Vice'. If they want to read and complain as you say above they'll down load those PDFs and do so, but they'll keep their money in their pockets. I'm a collector. I buy the hard copies to have in hand. but other than Vice. __EVERY__ 4th edition book is there on the net 100% free, DL takes about 10 minutes total. About a minute a book.

This is the first thing you've said in this thread that I've taken issue with. I personally loathe piracy, ripping off the game's creators and leaving the burden of supporting products to others whilst others help themselves. If I decide to skip the newer products (a decision I'll make on quality, primarily, though ethics may play a part if I feel the company is unethical), I'll skip them entirely. Not steal copies instead. Either I want them or I don't.

On a lighter note, the second thing you've said that I disagree with is this:

Pissing them off in an attempt of reverse psychology isn't going to work. They WILL stop buying the books if you make them mad.

Dr. Funkenstein might have a good handle on the rules (and I should know), but whatever his opinions are they aren't going to have much effect on other people's buying habits. If it's true that we are just a few, then it's even more true that the good Doctor's annoying some of us isn't going to have a noticeable effect on sales. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

The effect, such as it is, of us core fans being disgusted with CGL (if we become so), is going to be less the direct loss of sales and more the lack of our contributions. AH has frequently provided lots of information here on DS to our benefit. I've created a lot of Shadowrun material on my site and probably have an equal amount still awaiting tidy-up before publishing on my computer. I've spent about £200 on Shadowrun books, but I've had many thousands of downloads of material from my site, believe it or not. Probably my contributions through my fan material, though hard to analyse the effect directly, have rewarded Catalyst more than my actual direct purchases (especially when you deduct printing costs, etc.).

Regardless, Dr. Funkenstein is mostly correct that the noisy mob here aren't going to have a large direct effect on CGL's sales if they stay in business. We are only a small fraction of the general Shadowrun customer base. But I'll say this - Dumpshock has directly contributed to the development and quality of the game. Numerous of the developers hung out here and this place has churned up ideas and highlighted rules problems leading to FAQs and errata. A house rule I came up with actually made it into the book. (glee). If a lot of the core contributors and fans (I'm thinking of the outgoing developers rather than tag-a-longs like me, mainly) become disillusioned, disgusted with the company or simply pissed off, then it will have a negative impact on Shadowrun. Not through sales, but through quality. And quality, not proposed boycotts or contempt for Loren Coleman's behaviour, is what will determine sales on the large scale.

My 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

K.

[knasser]

On a more enlightening note, your Moderators are very busy reviewing many posts in this thread. It just takes time to work through all of it.

See - that's another negative impact of all this. Our mods could be doing all sorts of useful things for us if LLC hadn't ignited this pitched battle. Method could be making us more maps, Caine could be doing something for DDH and Fistandantilus could be writing Drop Bear poetry and all the other better things they could no doubt be doing to contribute to the game.

Instead, LLC has tricked them all into spending their evenings reading us shouting at each other. Bad, bad man.

K.

[LurkerOutThere]

That would be funny Pepsi Jedi is all the folks that would do such thing are supposedly doing so because of theft, embezzlement, or non payment of freelancers. Who will then go out and commit theft. Very ironic in my mind although self delusion is the best kind of delusion.

[Ancient History]

That would be funny Pepsi Jedi is all the folks that would do such thing are supposedly doing so because of theft, embezzlement, or non payment of freelancers. Who will then go out and commit theft. Very ironic in my mind although self delusion is the best kind of delusion.

I swore I wouldn't do this, but could you maybe stop, take a minute, and fully explain what in Ghost you're talking about here? Because I seriously can't accept or refute your arguments until I have some glimmer of an idea what you're talking about.

[Ol' Scratch]

People are "threatening" to not buy any more Shadowrun books if the license stays with Catalyst because they're angry about Coleman's alleged stealing. Others are saying that either they or those who make such claims will instead steal the books themselves. Lurker is pointing out the irony and hypocrisy.

It's even better if you also look at all the people sharing documents they shouldn't be sharing, too.

[Athenor]

I swore I wouldn't do this, but could you maybe stop, take a minute, and fully explain what in Ghost you're talking about here? Because I seriously can't accept or refute your arguments until I have some glimmer of an idea what you're talking about.

You really don't want to know, AH. It's pretty much dressed up ad hominem. Let the mods handle it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Edit: While we are at it, we should probably get away from the straw man that is the p-word. It's an issue, always will be, and no one is ignoring it. But this issue this thread should be focusing on is news & views, and we haven't had the former in quite a few days.

[crizh]

No one is telling anyone to do anything past wait and see.

I'd like to mention this again.

That phrase translates to 'choose Jason's material over Bobby's'.

It's asking us to take, on faith, that Jason's material will be as good as Bobby's and to willing assent to Bobby's material never seeing print.

I know for a fact that this will involve PACKS never seeing the light of day in it's original form.

I'm just not sure I'm willing to do that. Particularly with the shabby way that Jen has been treated by Catalyst. Do I still want to be funding the lavish houses of the sort of people that behave like that?

We (that's we the community, not I) have an opportunity, before the licence is renewed to kill Catalyst by refusing to send them any more money. You don't have to boycott your FLGS but you can let them know you won't be buying anything else they order from Catalyst.

If we let them print new material and it turns out to be dire then we're stuck with it.

I'm not saying that's what's going to happen but 'wait and see' is not going to prevent it from happening.

What I'd ideally like to see is Jason and Bobby putting aside their differences for the good of the game long enough for product that is already finished to make it out the door.

@DocFunk

Thanks, I took your advice some time ago and you were right. These boards are much more pleasant without having to listen to you.

@Pepsi Jedi

Nope, 100%.

[Pepsi Jedi]

This is the first thing you've said in this thread that I've taken issue with. I personally loathe piracy, ripping off the game's creators and leaving the burden of supporting products to others whilst others help themselves. If I decide to skip the newer products (a decision I'll make on quality, primarily, though ethics may play a part if I feel the company is unethical), I'll skip them entirely. Not steal copies instead. Either I want them or I don't.

But you're not the type that was being discussed. You're not a pissy lil wrench that buys books just to complain about them. The thought was put forward to the effect of "Oh bitch and moan all you want. You'll buy the books anyway just to bitch and moan"

My point was that you (( being the people described. not "YOU")) don't have to do that any more. That if people are that vindictive that berating them for buying books just to tear them up will not have the desired effect.

I'm __NOT__ Advocating pirated downloads. I paid for mine. Not a few dollars. I'm saying if you drive people off by berating their opinions and taunting them, if you discount their opinion and the effectiveness of them 'not' buying books. Then they simply will not.

On a lighter note, the second thing you've said that I disagree with is this:



Dr. Funkenstein might have a good handle on the rules (and I should know), but whatever his opinions are they aren't going to have much effect on other people's buying habits. If it's true that we are just a few, then it's even more true that the good Doctor's annoying some of us isn't going to have a noticeable effect on sales. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Every little bit helps. If one guy gets tweeked off, and you loose his group. That's 4 or 5 buyers gone. DO that... 10 times by tweeking people off and stuff, that's 40 or 50 buyers gone. It rolls down hill. My point is that the gaming consumer base is small and shrinking, loosing people is bad for us all. It snowballs.

The effect, such as it is, of us core fans being disgusted with CGL (if we become so), is going to be less the direct loss of sales and more the lack of our contributions. AH has frequently provided lots of information here on DS to our benefit. I've created a lot of Shadowrun material on my site and probably have an equal amount still awaiting tidy-up before publishing on my computer. I've spent about £200 on Shadowrun books, but I've had many thousands of downloads of material from my site, believe it or not. Probably my contributions through my fan material, though hard to analyse the effect directly, have rewarded Catalyst more than my actual direct purchases (especially when you deduct printing costs, etc.).

Regardless, Dr. Funkenstein is mostly correct that the noisy mob here aren't going to have a large direct effect on CGL's sales if they stay in business. We are only a small fraction of the general Shadowrun customer base.

"Large Direct Effect" No.

"An" Effect? Yes. They will. That's the thing. There aren't hundreds of thousands of Table top RPGer's out there any more. It's a small consumer base and one that is done socially. So if you tweek off one person you might loose 5 to 10 if he takes them with him. To call them asinine and berate them for their opinions, will not win you any friends.

But I'll say this - Dumpshock has directly contributed to the development and quality of the game. Numerous of the developers hung out here and this place has churned up ideas and highlighted rules problems leading to FAQs and errata. A house rule I came up with actually made it into the book. (glee). If a lot of the core contributors and fans (I'm thinking of the outgoing developers rather than tag-a-longs like me, mainly) become disillusioned, disgusted with the company or simply pissed off, then it will have a negative impact on Shadowrun. Not through sales, but through quality. And quality, not proposed boycotts or contempt for Loren Coleman's behaviour, is what will determine sales on the large scale.

My 0.02 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

K.

I agree with this. That surely won't help either.