CGL speculation #6 Options

[Adam]

So how were people able to withhold copyright, then? It was because they weren't paid?

Correct.

And the situation that happen is as such: someone withholds copyright, which means that they basically get put on the top of the "to pay" list ... which means that anyone else who is owed money on that project has incentive to also withhold copyright, so not to fall to the bottom of the payment ladder. This is why, in the occurrences when it happens, you'll find that people appear to be withholding copyright in batches -- nobody wants to be on the bottom of the payment ladder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[JM Hardy]

Oh, and I somehow forgot about another product I wrote: Battlerun, the only Shadowrun-related product to be nominated for an ENnie in 2009.

Jason H.

[Athenor]

I apologize if I'm not taking everything you are saying in kind. I should be, but I'm also typing fast.

My logic hinges on this being a binary:

If he's on the side of the angels and is a good writer? Cool.

This is begging the question: 'I'm okay with him if he's a good writer and on the side of good.' And if he's not, well... It isn't labeling him as an angel or a devil, but it is invoking the comparison. Language is all about conveying images and ideas, and one does not need to state words to convey those thoughts.

Also, there is no such thing as inviolate canon. Lucas has proven this. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Whoever writes the story makes the rules, and through the history of Shadowrun "false" information has been inserted into the canon. Hell, the entire beginning of SoNA effectively de-canonized the guides to the Native American Nations, at least by my reading. I am not going to presume what will come about as a result of any work currently in development getting published, in terms of reception and retention, but I do know that it will result in a legally binding contract to pay those involved in its creation. Destroying Catalyst might lead to that outcome not occurring.

I also highly doubt either Bobby or Jason's material will be lost forever.

[crizh]

Oh, and I somehow forgot about another product I wrote: Battlerun, the only Shadowrun-related product to be nominated for an ENnie in 2009.

Jason H.

Ah, now that's a quality piece of prose.

Much better than that silly PC Dragons thing...

[Kronk2]

Does this continual font of venom serve any further purpose? I am quite tired of my fellow dumpshockers spewing vitriol and anger, I just want my favorite game to survive, nay thrive, in the adversity of this situation. This game, by its very nature, caters to a semi underground motif.

[Darkeus]

Same thing I said earlier but it seems to have taken on a life of its own.

[Athenor]

I loved Battlerun. It was funny as hell, and I personally believe you can't have dark, depressing stories without at least some touch of humor.

I also still fail to see most of the either/or information being presented. I mean.. what if Jason gets his book out in time (which means it'd have to go to print in the next 3 weeks, which also involves the owners cutting checks if the previous description of checks and balances is accurate), and then the ownership changes hands, and then Bobby sells his materials to the new owners, who then take it and publish it, either in its original form or inserted into other material? Then doesn't everyone win? (in this specific case of two personalities having a spat, I mean. )

[DireRadiant]

Then doesn't everyone win?

Not allowed in Dystopia.

[Athenor]

Not allowed in Dystopia.

Damn! And here I was thinking dystopias were cautionary tales, and the best ones always had a glimmer of hope buried somewhere deep in them. Or maybe I'm thinking of diasporas? Either way, I miss Fading Suns. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Method]

I think the scenario crizh is referring to is that if CGL publishes a Sixth World Almanac (for example) without Bobby's material before shutting down, no company that inherits the license is going to turn around a publish another SWA-like tome any time in the near future. Thus Bobby's material would be lost (to the official canon anyway).

[Ancient History]

I also still fail to see most of the either/or information being presented. I mean.. what if Jason gets his book out in time (which means it'd have to go to print in the next 3 weeks, which also involves the owners cutting checks if the previous description of checks and balances is accurate), and then the ownership changes hands, and then Bobby sells his materials to the new owners, who then take it and publish it, either in its original form or inserted into other material? Then doesn't everyone win? (in this specific case of two personalities having a spat, I mean. )

If Jason did somehow miraculously get a book to print, my drafts would no longer have a place. So I would release them for free.

[crizh]

Does this continual font of venom serve any further purpose? I am quite tired of my fellow dumpshockers spewing vitriol and anger,

I was about to say that, whilst that last exchange might have been a little heated, I don't recall descending into vitriol.

Then I recall that I can only see about two thirds of the thread.

That Doc Funk is a wise, wise man.

[Athenor]

I think the scenario crizh is referring to is that if CGL publishes a Sixth World Almanac without Bobby's material before shutting down, no company that inherits the license is going to turn around a publish another SWA-like tome any time in the near future.

But that's the fallacy. Unless the material is drastically different (which I don't think it would be as Jason probably gave Bobby the notes on what he was contracted to write, but that is conjecture on my part), then it isn't all that hard to create a "volume 2" or a supplementary guide, or even publish Bobby's content as a web supplement. Or hell, you could even go the AEG route and release something akin to Oriental Adventures / Rokugan... Now there, THERE was a clusterfuck.

Man, it's hard to convince people that things really aren't so dire, as long as everyone is able to make a living (which is my only vested stake in this, mind you. I don't want to see anyone starve.)

[Athenor]

I was about to say that, whilst that last exchange might have been a little heated, I don't recall descending into vitriol.

Then I recall that I can only see about two thirds of the thread.

That Doc Funk is a wise, wise man.

Funk hasn't posted since #547, at 3:28 PM CST. It's much better, IMO, to just ignore someone by not responding to them than to hit some magical "don't make their posts appear" button. Censoring discussion like that does far more harm than good.

[crizh]

Unless the material is drastically different

I can't comment on whether it is or is not drastically different.

It sure annoyed Bobby when he read it but that's all we have to go on.

Which was kinda my point.

[Athenor]

Bobby also has an admitted bias. Which is my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I think I'm done, btw. Sorry, everyone, for hijacking the thread for so long.

[Method]

Does this continual font of venom serve any further purpose?

I won't comment on the content of this thread, but whatever it is, this thread keeps it out of others. People are going to talk about this, so we might as well provide them a dedicated space to discuss it.

Having said that, tho, I'd say its almost time for a re-spawn...

[crizh]

Funk hasn't posted since #547, at 3:28 PM CST. It's much better, IMO, to just ignore someone by not responding to them than to hit some magical "don't make their posts appear" button. Censoring discussion like that does far more harm than good.

It's an experiment for the time being. I'm finding that not seeing the deliberate provocation and outright hostility allows one a measure of calm that makes participation easier.

Even if you don't respond the emotions leak through into other posts and threads. Threefold return and all that.

The gist filters through other peoples replies but the initial reaction is blunted.

YMMV, like I say I'm just trying it out.

[edit]

Bobby also has an admitted bias. Which is my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

No doubt, hence why my mind is as yet not made up.

[JM Hardy]

But that's the fallacy. Unless the material is drastically different (which I don't think it would be as Jason probably gave Bobby the notes on what he was contracted to write, but that is conjecture on my part), then it isn't all that hard to create a "volume 2" or a supplementary guide, or even publish Bobby's content as a web supplement. Or hell, you could even go the AEG route and release something akin to Oriental Adventures / Rokugan... Now there, THERE was a clusterfuck.

Man, it's hard to convince people that things really aren't so dire, as long as everyone is able to make a living (which is my only vested stake in this, mind you. I don't want to see anyone starve.)

One quick point of order: The Almanac was already in editing when I was hired, so I didn't give notes to any of the writers--it was past that stage. Not sure if that really matters, but I thought I'd say it anyway.

Jason H.

[Cain]

Here's the point that Doc keeps missing.

We at Dumpshock have a huge influence on the way Shadowrun goes. Most (all?) of the 4.0-4.5 changes were things we bitched about here on Dumpshock. I know that some of my personal battles with Synner and some of the other CGL employees led directly to new errata being released. I also know that Dumpshock claims over 11,000 members. Assuming that less than half of them still posts, knows about the situation, and agrees to boycott CGL, that's still 5,000 books that didn't get bought. Even with a large print run, that's a huge number of books to have sitting in a warehouse.

[Zak]

This whole dilemma will probably do a better job at introducing players to the field of intra-corp intruiges than the splatbooks we got so far on this topic.

[Red-ROM]

there are thousands of gaming stores in the country. The majority are independently owned, and probably don't bring in a ton of money.

This plan assumes two things: That every single one of those stores has someone who is a regular at these forums, and that every single one of those people is wanting to see Catalyst shut down via boycott...

No, the more likely scenario is that all the store owners/operators are aware of the situation. They are the main vehicle of information for a store, after all. They order the product, they push the product, they promote.. because their livelihoods depend on it. And the owners/operators would be the ones to feel the pain from a boycott, because they've already bought the books -- The distributors have already gotten their money, and CGL has already gotten its money from the distributors (in theory). So all a boycott at the store level would do is hurt the FLGS, and I highly doubt the FLGS would support that. They may not order more product after they sell out, but that would be the extent of it.

And what's worse, this plan ignores the fact that there are sellers like Barnes & Noble/Borders, Amazon, and online stores out there. None of these companies care about the politics of the books they carry; they just sell 'em. So you aren't going to get them to boycott.


As I said above: The best option is to wait and see, and don't treat this like some massive war. No one is asking you to be silent on the issue, just see it from all sides. If you choose not to buy any more Shadowrun books, that is your prerogative. If you choose to inform people of this situation, good on you -- as long as you let them make their own decisions and conclusions, and be honest in your discussion. Anything less than this is being unfair.

my local game stores carry little to no Shadowrun, and one store is boycotting it outright.

[Athenor]

The qualifier was All. my local stores carry little to no Shadowrun either, and the next town over's upset over the situation. That's where the leverage is.. but you aren't going to get the entirety of the gaming industry together to flex that muscle. Distributors? Sure. Writers? Most definitely. Creditors? They're first in line. But at the store or individual level, pressure is hard to exert unless you fall into those categories.

[Chrome Tiger]

Having said that, tho, I'd say its almost time for a re-spawn...

Yeah, I quite agree... All these multiple pages makes it hard to track down all of the reported posts... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Method]

I that case we'll cap it at 600 posts.

Please feel free to continue the discussion in CGL Speculation #7.