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> Hacker cannot Hack, Has no commlink, will not travel
Heath Robinson
post Apr 20 2010, 05:36 AM
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Look, I normally ignore the Matrix system in SR4. I knew from the beginning that I would hate it because it is thoroughly Gibsonian. It is in a cyberpunk game, of course it'll be Gibsonian. It is, therefore, only recently that I bothered actually reading the Wireless World chapter. That means that my first exposure to most of the text is in the form of the passages as conveyed in the Anniversary rewrite. I was taken aback when I noticed something amiss.


Emphases mine:
QUOTE (Page 224 @ BBB)
To connect to a node (aside from the one on which your persona is running), you must subscribe to it.
...
Subscribing to a node is a Complex Action (Log On, p. 231).


QUOTE (Page 231 @ BBB)
Log On (System)
You open a subscription to a node, and your icon appears there.
...
This requires no test, but does require either the proper authentication to an account (such as a passcode) or a hacked account.


QUOTE (Page 235 @ BBB)
Hacking
...
In order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix.


Let's summarise:
To hack a node we need a subscription.
To have a subscription we need an account.
To have an account we need to hack the node.
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merashin
post Apr 20 2010, 05:54 AM
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the part you missed was the or between "you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device" and "have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix." It means if you are not within mutual signal range of each other then you have to have a subscription, but don't need one if you are closer.
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Cardul
post Apr 20 2010, 06:16 AM
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Yeah, basicly: You get inside signal range, hack yourself an account and subscription, then, later on, you can access
from anywhere.

Example:
You want to hack into a node at Big Bob's Used Gun Emporium. If you do not have a subscription, you
have to actually be close enough for your signal and the node at Big Bob's to overlap. If you have a subscription,
you can hack it while sunbathing in Hawaii when Big Bob's is in, say, Quebec.
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 20 2010, 06:50 AM
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QUOTE (merashin @ Apr 20 2010, 06:54 AM) *
the part you missed was the or between "you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device" and "have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix." It means if you are not within mutual signal range of each other then you have to have a subscription, but don't need one if you are closer.


I am aware of that. Nodes don't have to have Signal.

QUOTE (Page 314 @ BBB)
If you consider a device’s wireless link to be a nuisance, you can have it removed completely with a Hardware + Logic (8, 10 minutes) Extended Test - or simply purchase a non-wireless device in the first place (always an option, though it may get you some funny looks).


Without Signal, they can never be in "mutual signal range". Nodes connected to a fibre network that is also connected to a node with Signal will be able to route through the node with Signal whilst still being immune to hacking.


If you had the choice between being completely immune to hacking, and not being completely immune to hacking, which would you choose?
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Cardul
post Apr 20 2010, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 20 2010, 01:50 AM) *
I am aware of that. Nodes don't have to have Signal.



Without Signal, they can never be in "mutual signal range". Nodes connected to a fibre network that is also connected to a node with Signal will be able to route through the node with Signal whilst still being immune to hacking.


If you had the choice between being completely immune to hacking, and not being completely immune to hacking, which would you choose?


How are you going to track where your employees are without wireless? How are you going to control your
security drones without wireless? How are your security going to communicate back to central without wireless
or how are you going to monitor their vitals without wireless?

There is going to be wireless throughout a complex. It might not necessarily be to where you need to be, but,
if you can get to something conected into the network, since the network, even fiber-optic connected nodes,
is considered within its "mutual signal range", getting in ANYWHERE is a foot in the door.

The only places in a corp that are going to be completely wired are going to the most secure areas, deep inside the
building, and even THOSE will have to connect to the matrix at somepoint to sync up with the other people on the same project at different facilities.
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Eratosthenes
post Apr 20 2010, 01:18 PM
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QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ Apr 20 2010, 02:50 AM) *
I am aware of that. Nodes don't have to have Signal.



Without Signal, they can never be in "mutual signal range". Nodes connected to a fibre network that is also connected to a node with Signal will be able to route through the node with Signal whilst still being immune to hacking.


If you had the choice between being completely immune to hacking, and not being completely immune to hacking, which would you choose?


Then you have to physically access the network it is on. If it is a fiber optic network, you plug in (use that Electronics/Hardware skill perhaps) with your datajack or the i/o port of your external commlink, and hack it from there.

Some places will still use wires, but wireless (per fluff) is a boon to productivity/convenience that wireless networks are more common.

Also note that some networks will use the same accounts across networked devices. So if Node A is connected via fiber optic to Node B, which is wireless, the same hacked account might work on both, in which case you'd just need to hack Node B, and then log on/subscribe to Node A (from Node B) with the hacked account. In this case, Node B would serve as a gateway or choke point, and likely be loaded with IC (where Node A would be where the paydata was, and where the wageslaves do their work).
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Aerospider
post Apr 20 2010, 01:20 PM
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This post had me quite worried since my grasp of 4ed Matrix concepts is usually tenuous-at-best and the quote-combo you've presented is so NOT how I've been playing it! However, I think I actually can help here.

It's not really contradictory, but well done for spotting it because just one more sentence in the book to clarify the following would have been helpful.

It does stipulate that hacking on the fly takes care of the Log On action (i.e. after you've created your phoney account you don't have to take another complex action to get in) and that for probing the Log On action does come decidedly afterwards. Either way, you achieve your subscription after finding your own unique way round the firewall.

With that in mind, when it says "In order to hack a node, you must either..." I take the word "hack" to refer to the enterprise as a whole and not just the getting in bit. Reading a file using falsified security privileges is still 'hacking' even though you're not rolling any dice and your character isn't cracking encryption to do so. I reckon they just wanted to stop people from thinking subscriptions were only for legitimate users.

So that works for me and hopefully you too.
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Drats
post Apr 20 2010, 02:24 PM
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My group has never run wireless connection protocols quite so punctiliously-- as we read the rules (not interpret, but read), "mutual signal range" is always achievable between two devices that can actively send or receive over the Matrix-- that is, neither of the devices can be slaved (to a device the would-be user doesn't have access to) or hidden. Slaved modules need to be spoofed or physically (as in, cable-jacked) hacked, and the hidden ones are the only ones that I ever require my hackers to be within actual, physical signal range of, as they're not sending or receiving and so their presence can only be picked out of the background noise by someone close enough to get a direct wireless connection.

We regard the hacking as part of the "request to connect." You aren't actually subscribed to a node until you've actually hacked your way in (or gotten in legitimately, but where's the fun in that?). Remember, also, that not all nodes require any sort of "special" authorization to connect-- many of them have public areas, whose only requisite for allowing a user in is that the user has a readable access ID. (And, I'm not sure it's RAW, but logically, we've concluded at my table that if you've got public access to a node you can hack your way up to user, security, or admin from inside of it, with all the thresholds being the same as if you were hacking your way in from outside).
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JoelHalpern
post Apr 20 2010, 02:49 PM
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Are folks really saying that hacking in SR4A was changed so that you can not hack your way into a node over the matrix? That is a MAJOR change if so. In the straight SR4 rules you could hack quickly or slowly via the matrix. (This presumed that you somehow, presumably via legwork, located the target perimeter team on the matrix.)
If you can not do that, it makes hacking slowly a VERY limited tool, since you would have to be able to find a place to park for several hours within signal range of the node.
Conversely, it makes "creating an account" a very useful option, and does remedy the fact that almsot any node in existence was hackable if one had time as the rules were written before.

Yours,
Joel
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 20 2010, 05:59 PM
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Ditto: being connected to the Matrix *is* 'mutual signal range', and 'Hack on the Fly' *is* connecting as a user. It seems to work fine for me, isn't that RAW?
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SpellBinder
post Apr 20 2010, 06:13 PM
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I think something might've been forgotten...
QUOTE (Unwired, page 52)
Public Access Rights

If a connection is established without sending any information except the access ID, the connection is automatically granted public access rights. This is the type of access a user receives when she is entering the public part of a node. The public account allows access to public data like website information, blogs, databases, personal profiles, and so on. Depending on the accessed data, different access rights might come with the public account, for example the ability to write without a username in public forums.
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Banaticus
post Apr 20 2010, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (JoelHalpern @ Apr 20 2010, 07:49 AM) *
Are folks really saying that hacking in SR4A was changed so that you can not hack your way into a node over the matrix?

If the node is in mutual signal range with something else nearby, then you can access it through that something else, presuming that you've hacked your way into that something else first. To go off a previous example that someone else gave, to hack into Big Bob's normally you need to be there within range of Big Bob's network (presuming that he has one), then later you can hack into it from Hawaii.

Or, you can go to Hawaii first and call a cab to pick you up from Big Bob's, hack into the hotel in Hawaii, access the airport travel agents there, hack into that, access the HI airport, hack into that, find the connection to the rental car agency in the other airport, hack into that, access a taxi service, hack into that, access the meter in the taxicab as the driver idles (the company likes to keep tabs of what the meter actually reads to ensure the driver isn't stiffing them), hack into that, then use that wireless device to access Big Bob's network (since they're in mutual signal range) and finally you can hack into Big Bob's. Once you've done that and subscribed, since Big Bob's is connected to the Matrix, you can now access it directly from Hawaii without going through everything else, but you have to get within range of it first somehow.
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Darkeus
post Apr 20 2010, 06:47 PM
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Wow, I have never run my matrix like that... That just doesn't seem right...

I mean, in real life you do not have to go through those steps. I can hack a company from my room...

As long as you can fool the matrix provider (or have access) and then surf your way to the node and wam... Hack it.

SR Matrix rules have always been an annoyance to run but understanding them is not too bad...

IN fact SR4A says: "You must subscribe to a node
if you want to “travel” to it in the Matrix, which means that you must
be able to either connect with it directly (with a wired connection, or
when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through
the Matrix network.
"

I don't think you have to hack a dozen plus nodes to do this, otherwise ordering a pizza delivery over the Matrix is gonna suck ass! If connecting to a node is supposed to be like accessing it on the web then it doesn't connect to dozens upon dozens of "nodes" to access dumpshock... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I am no Matrix expert at all but I must add that what Tom Dowd said was very interesting... SR matrix isn't supposed to be real, that would be boring!
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Sengir
post Apr 20 2010, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (Banaticus @ Apr 20 2010, 07:17 PM) *
If the node is in mutual signal range with something else nearby, then you can access it through that something else, presuming that you've hacked your way into that something else first.

Nope, routing is done automatically and does not depend on user rights. So if Big Bob's commlink is not in range but you can "see" Little Luke's commlink and he is in range of Big Bob, you have a connection to Bob.

See Unwired's chapter on routing:
A routing is established every time data from node A want to access node B, facilitating other nodes in between as routers. Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode (see PAN modes, p. 211, SR4). Even peripheral nodes participate in the mesh network routing, though priority is given to standard nodes and nexi


So if you really need to hack every node on the way, things get really complicated.
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SpellBinder
post Apr 20 2010, 07:39 PM
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QUOTE (Darkeus @ Apr 20 2010, 12:47 PM) *
I don't think you have to hack a dozen plus nodes to do this, otherwise ordering a pizza delivery over the Matrix is gonna suck ass!

Said wageslave is using public access rights to order that pizza. No hacking necessary.

Hacking involves getting user, security, or admin access rights to a particular node.
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Yerameyahu
post Apr 20 2010, 07:55 PM
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I've just never even heard the idea that you can't freely route to almost anywhere. It's not even a single path, it's a huge branching tree of paths; that's why to Intercept Traffic (or whatever it's called), you have to be at the node or at all the nodes it's connected to. Otherwise the traffic is fragmented.

Obviously all bets are off if we're not talking about Matrix-connected things.
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Manunancy
post Apr 20 2010, 08:38 PM
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You can go to just about any node that's within signal range of the matrix (just about anywhere), but you need to have the ID of the node you're trying to contact (IRL, an HTTP or IP adress), to tell the matrix where you trying to connect.

Direct signal let you try the connexion without knowing the adress for the node you're hacking firsthand, you get it by monitoring the node's transmissions and then try directly

A meatworld analogy would be the difference between taking a cab to do some breaking-in and looting - you give the cab an adress to go where you want - and walking in the street, noticing a pormising-looking house and going straight in.
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Darkeus
post Apr 20 2010, 09:26 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Apr 20 2010, 03:39 PM) *
Said wageslave is using public access rights to order that pizza. No hacking necessary.

Hacking involves getting user, security, or admin access rights to a particular node.


Right, but you already get public access to any node when you access it. So if you need to hack said node, you are already there.

I just don't see having to hack two dozen nodes to hack the pizza shop. You just hack the node of the pizza shop, no jumping around required.

Eh, I try to keep the Matrix simple. I tend to fall on the side of handwavium when running it... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Banaticus
post Apr 20 2010, 11:29 PM
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It means hackers have to go in with the team. It moves the hacker from an NPC (do all the legwork during "down time", then go do the "real" mission while the hacker sits back and eats ice cream) to a PC -- the hacker has to go in with the rest of the team.
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Darkeus
post Apr 20 2010, 11:34 PM
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Well, that is because paydata never ends up being easy to get...

There always has to be a catch. That is when you throw it at them...

Plus seriously, it really doesn't put the hacker with the team. You can still sit in a van outside and hack if you have enough signal floating around.

But I digress, I always think these Matrix discussions on Dumpshock over complicate things. Then again, the rules don't help the situation either...
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Darkeus
post Apr 20 2010, 11:34 PM
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edit: Damn double post... Weird..
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Heath Robinson
post Apr 21 2010, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 20 2010, 06:59 PM) *
Ditto: being connected to the Matrix *is* 'mutual signal range', and 'Hack on the Fly' *is* connecting as a user. It seems to work fine for me, isn't that RAW?

Unfortunately not, so far as I can see. There are these inconvenient bits of phrasing where the rules say "be in mutual signal range or have a route to it over the matrix" (owtte) that indicate that the two are intended to mean different things.

The Hacking section indicates that the user must have a subscription if they are not within mutual signal range. The Hack on the Fly option is actually an action in the action system (it's a Complex action as indicated on page 230).

QUOTE (Page 230 @ BBB)
Hack on the Fly (Exploit)
You attempt to create an account for yourself on another node.
...
This process is described in more detail in Hacking the Matrix, p. 235.


(It is a given that the rules referenced indicate that you need a subscription.) Thus, you cannot take the action at the same time you take the Log On action. Both are Complex. Since the Log On action requires you have an account you cannot attempt it (or it fails, your choice), and since the Hack on the Fly action requires a subscription you cannot attempt it (or it fails, your choice).

Needless to say, the Hack on the Fly action also does not state that it establishes a subscription as part of its operation. You can use it if you are already logged onto a node, that's easy. Most secured nodes are not running in Active, though, and do not give out accounts like candy.



Now, I personally think this is all bollocks. The change isn't in the changes doc, and it seems to be a mere mishap. It's amusing, though.
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Darkeus
post Apr 21 2010, 01:26 AM
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All you have to do is connect to a node to get a subscription. That is what a public account is called. You hack it when you want to get one of those better accounts (which is always).

Also, if you succeed in a hack on the fly, it logs you on automatically at the account level you hacked for.

So in theory, you could access a node with a public account and then hack your way up. This would solve the open subscription problem and it seems that is the part they forgot to connect.
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Draco18s
post Apr 21 2010, 01:35 AM
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QUOTE (Darkeus @ Apr 20 2010, 08:26 PM) *
All you have to do is connect to a node to get a subscription. That is what a public account is called. You hack it when you want to get one of those better accounts (which is always).


So a node becomes unhackable (except within signal range) if it refuses public subscriptions?
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Darkeus
post Apr 21 2010, 01:49 AM
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Well, if it isn't taking public subscriptions then you are gonna have to drag your hacker out of the van and into the fray. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think this is the part where they were trying to get the hacker as a more active party member. If there are nodes you can't hack the ol' fashion way cause you can't get low access and work up then you either get close and personal and hack it in mutual signal range or you probe the system and backdoor it and spend the time.

To me this is part of the "it isn't realistic but it helps play a game" rule concessions that were made.

Like I have said before, I don't try to complicate or over think it. It is a game after all. I don't need it to be realistic, just functional...

I mean, if you look at the rule example of Hacking on the Fly the hacker is in the place they are hitting's bathroom! Mutual signal range indeed! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And to make a point, I am not saying that the wording of the rules is good. It is not and if anything is contradictory at times.

So I would make it that a node that has no public account needs to be either hacked on the fly in mutual signal range or probed with either being in mutual range or establishing a route. That makes more sense to me...

You can always just steal the password for admin access ya know!
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