Look, I normally ignore the Matrix system in SR4. I knew from the beginning that I would hate it because it is thoroughly Gibsonian. It is in a cyberpunk game, of course it'll be Gibsonian. It is, therefore, only recently that I bothered actually reading the Wireless World chapter. That means that my first exposure to most of the text is in the form of the passages as conveyed in the Anniversary rewrite. I was taken aback when I noticed something amiss.


Emphases mine:






Let's summarise:
To hack a node we need a subscription.
To have a subscription we need an account.
To have an account we need to hack the node.

the part you missed was the or between "you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s device" and "have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix." It means if you are not within mutual signal range of each other then you have to have a subscription, but don't need one if you are closer.

Yeah, basicly: You get inside signal range, hack yourself an account and subscription, then, later on, you can access
from anywhere.

Example:
You want to hack into a node at Big Bob's Used Gun Emporium. If you do not have a subscription, you
have to actually be close enough for your signal and the node at Big Bob's to overlap. If you have a subscription,
you can hack it while sunbathing in Hawaii when Big Bob's is in, say, Quebec.

I am aware of that. Nodes don't have to have Signal.



Without Signal, they can never be in "mutual signal range". Nodes connected to a fibre network that is also connected to a node with Signal will be able to route through the node with Signal whilst still being immune to hacking.


If you had the choice between being completely immune to hacking, and not being completely immune to hacking, which would you choose?

How are you going to track where your employees are without wireless? How are you going to control your
security drones without wireless? How are your security going to communicate back to central without wireless
or how are you going to monitor their vitals without wireless?

There is going to be wireless throughout a complex. It might not necessarily be to where you need to be, but,
if you can get to something conected into the network, since the network, even fiber-optic connected nodes,
is considered within its "mutual signal range", getting in ANYWHERE is a foot in the door.

The only places in a corp that are going to be completely wired are going to the most secure areas, deep inside the
building, and even THOSE will have to connect to the matrix at somepoint to sync up with the other people on the same project at different facilities.

Then you have to physically access the network it is on. If it is a fiber optic network, you plug in (use that Electronics/Hardware skill perhaps) with your datajack or the i/o port of your external commlink, and hack it from there.

Some places will still use wires, but wireless (per fluff) is a boon to productivity/convenience that wireless networks are more common.

Also note that some networks will use the same accounts across networked devices. So if Node A is connected via fiber optic to Node B, which is wireless, the same hacked account might work on both, in which case you'd just need to hack Node B, and then log on/subscribe to Node A (from Node B) with the hacked account. In this case, Node B would serve as a gateway or choke point, and likely be loaded with IC (where Node A would be where the paydata was, and where the wageslaves do their work).

This post had me quite worried since my grasp of 4ed Matrix concepts is usually tenuous-at-best and the quote-combo you've presented is so NOT how I've been playing it! However, I think I actually can help here.

It's not really contradictory, but well done for spotting it because just one more sentence in the book to clarify the following would have been helpful.

It does stipulate that hacking on the fly takes care of the Log On action (i.e. after you've created your phoney account you don't have to take another complex action to get in) and that for probing the Log On action does come decidedly afterwards. Either way, you achieve your subscription after finding your own unique way round the firewall.

With that in mind, when it says "In order to hack a node, you must either..." I take the word "hack" to refer to the enterprise as a whole and not just the getting in bit. Reading a file using falsified security privileges is still 'hacking' even though you're not rolling any dice and your character isn't cracking encryption to do so. I reckon they just wanted to stop people from thinking subscriptions were only for legitimate users.

So that works for me and hopefully you too.

My group has never run wireless connection protocols quite so punctiliously-- as we read the rules (not interpret, but read), "mutual signal range" is always achievable between two devices that can actively send or receive over the Matrix-- that is, neither of the devices can be slaved (to a device the would-be user doesn't have access to) or hidden. Slaved modules need to be spoofed or physically (as in, cable-jacked) hacked, and the hidden ones are the only ones that I ever require my hackers to be within actual, physical signal range of, as they're not sending or receiving and so their presence can only be picked out of the background noise by someone close enough to get a direct wireless connection.

We regard the hacking as part of the "request to connect." You aren't actually subscribed to a node until you've actually hacked your way in (or gotten in legitimately, but where's the fun in that?). Remember, also, that not all nodes require any sort of "special" authorization to connect-- many of them have public areas, whose only requisite for allowing a user in is that the user has a readable access ID. (And, I'm not sure it's RAW, but logically, we've concluded at my table that if you've got public access to a node you can hack your way up to user, security, or admin from inside of it, with all the thresholds being the same as if you were hacking your way in from outside).

Are folks really saying that hacking in SR4A was changed so that you can not hack your way into a node over the matrix? That is a MAJOR change if so. In the straight SR4 rules you could hack quickly or slowly via the matrix. (This presumed that you somehow, presumably via legwork, located the target perimeter team on the matrix.)
If you can not do that, it makes hacking slowly a VERY limited tool, since you would have to be able to find a place to park for several hours within signal range of the node.
Conversely, it makes "creating an account" a very useful option, and does remedy the fact that almsot any node in existence was hackable if one had time as the rules were written before.

Yours,
Joel

Ditto: being connected to the Matrix *is* 'mutual signal range', and 'Hack on the Fly' *is* connecting as a user. It seems to work fine for me, isn't that RAW?

I think something might've been forgotten...

If the node is in mutual signal range with something else nearby, then you can access it through that something else, presuming that you've hacked your way into that something else first. To go off a previous example that someone else gave, to hack into Big Bob's normally you need to be there within range of Big Bob's network (presuming that he has one), then later you can hack into it from Hawaii.

Or, you can go to Hawaii first and call a cab to pick you up from Big Bob's, hack into the hotel in Hawaii, access the airport travel agents there, hack into that, access the HI airport, hack into that, find the connection to the rental car agency in the other airport, hack into that, access a taxi service, hack into that, access the meter in the taxicab as the driver idles (the company likes to keep tabs of what the meter actually reads to ensure the driver isn't stiffing them), hack into that, then use that wireless device to access Big Bob's network (since they're in mutual signal range) and finally you can hack into Big Bob's. Once you've done that and subscribed, since Big Bob's is connected to the Matrix, you can now access it directly from Hawaii without going through everything else, but you have to get within range of it first somehow.

Wow, I have never run my matrix like that... That just doesn't seem right...

I mean, in real life you do not have to go through those steps. I can hack a company from my room...

As long as you can fool the matrix provider (or have access) and then surf your way to the node and wam... Hack it.

SR Matrix rules have always been an annoyance to run but understanding them is not too bad...

IN fact SR4A says: "You must subscribe to a node
if you want to “travel” to it in the Matrix, which means that you must
be able to either connect with it directly (with a wired connection, or
when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through
the Matrix network."

I don't think you have to hack a dozen plus nodes to do this, otherwise ordering a pizza delivery over the Matrix is gonna suck ass! If connecting to a node is supposed to be like accessing it on the web then it doesn't connect to dozens upon dozens of "nodes" to access dumpshock...

I am no Matrix expert at all but I must add that what Tom Dowd said was very interesting... SR matrix isn't supposed to be real, that would be boring!

Nope, routing is done automatically and does not depend on user rights. So if Big Bob's commlink is not in range but you can "see" Little Luke's commlink and he is in range of Big Bob, you have a connection to Bob.

See Unwired's chapter on routing:
A routing is established every time data from node A want to access node B, facilitating other nodes in between as routers. Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode (see PAN modes, p. 211, SR4). Even peripheral nodes participate in the mesh network routing, though priority is given to standard nodes and nexi


So if you really need to hack every node on the way, things get really complicated.

Said wageslave is using public access rights to order that pizza. No hacking necessary.

Hacking involves getting user, security, or admin access rights to a particular node.

I've just never even heard the idea that you can't freely route to almost anywhere. It's not even a single path, it's a huge branching tree of paths; that's why to Intercept Traffic (or whatever it's called), you have to be at the node or at all the nodes it's connected to. Otherwise the traffic is fragmented.

Obviously all bets are off if we're not talking about Matrix-connected things.

You can go to just about any node that's within signal range of the matrix (just about anywhere), but you need to have the ID of the node you're trying to contact (IRL, an HTTP or IP adress), to tell the matrix where you trying to connect.

Direct signal let you try the connexion without knowing the adress for the node you're hacking firsthand, you get it by monitoring the node's transmissions and then try directly

A meatworld analogy would be the difference between taking a cab to do some breaking-in and looting - you give the cab an adress to go where you want - and walking in the street, noticing a pormising-looking house and going straight in.

Right, but you already get public access to any node when you access it. So if you need to hack said node, you are already there.

I just don't see having to hack two dozen nodes to hack the pizza shop. You just hack the node of the pizza shop, no jumping around required.

Eh, I try to keep the Matrix simple. I tend to fall on the side of handwavium when running it...

It means hackers have to go in with the team. It moves the hacker from an NPC (do all the legwork during "down time", then go do the "real" mission while the hacker sits back and eats ice cream) to a PC -- the hacker has to go in with the rest of the team.

Well, that is because paydata never ends up being easy to get...

There always has to be a catch. That is when you throw it at them...

Plus seriously, it really doesn't put the hacker with the team. You can still sit in a van outside and hack if you have enough signal floating around.

But I digress, I always think these Matrix discussions on Dumpshock over complicate things. Then again, the rules don't help the situation either...

edit: Damn double post... Weird..

Unfortunately not, so far as I can see. There are these inconvenient bits of phrasing where the rules say "be in mutual signal range or have a route to it over the matrix" (owtte) that indicate that the two are intended to mean different things.

The Hacking section indicates that the user must have a subscription if they are not within mutual signal range. The Hack on the Fly option is actually an action in the action system (it's a Complex action as indicated on page 230).



(It is a given that the rules referenced indicate that you need a subscription.) Thus, you cannot take the action at the same time you take the Log On action. Both are Complex. Since the Log On action requires you have an account you cannot attempt it (or it fails, your choice), and since the Hack on the Fly action requires a subscription you cannot attempt it (or it fails, your choice).

Needless to say, the Hack on the Fly action also does not state that it establishes a subscription as part of its operation. You can use it if you are already logged onto a node, that's easy. Most secured nodes are not running in Active, though, and do not give out accounts like candy.



Now, I personally think this is all bollocks. The change isn't in the changes doc, and it seems to be a mere mishap. It's amusing, though.

All you have to do is connect to a node to get a subscription. That is what a public account is called. You hack it when you want to get one of those better accounts (which is always).

Also, if you succeed in a hack on the fly, it logs you on automatically at the account level you hacked for.

So in theory, you could access a node with a public account and then hack your way up. This would solve the open subscription problem and it seems that is the part they forgot to connect.

So a node becomes unhackable (except within signal range) if it refuses public subscriptions?

Well, if it isn't taking public subscriptions then you are gonna have to drag your hacker out of the van and into the fray.

I think this is the part where they were trying to get the hacker as a more active party member. If there are nodes you can't hack the ol' fashion way cause you can't get low access and work up then you either get close and personal and hack it in mutual signal range or you probe the system and backdoor it and spend the time.

To me this is part of the "it isn't realistic but it helps play a game" rule concessions that were made.

Like I have said before, I don't try to complicate or over think it. It is a game after all. I don't need it to be realistic, just functional...

I mean, if you look at the rule example of Hacking on the Fly the hacker is in the place they are hitting's bathroom! Mutual signal range indeed!

And to make a point, I am not saying that the wording of the rules is good. It is not and if anything is contradictory at times.

So I would make it that a node that has no public account needs to be either hacked on the fly in mutual signal range or probed with either being in mutual range or establishing a route. That makes more sense to me...

You can always just steal the password for admin access ya know!

I find that these discussions tend to hinder my understanding of the matrix more than help it.

If a node is wireless. then its part of the matrix (that whole "mesh network" thing). WiFi devices are made to bounce signals off of, no questions asked.

If your hacking from 100 miles away, you'll need the address, or you'll have to search for it (try to google for a phone number, could be impossible).

If its Hidden, you have to scan for it, this takes mutual signal range because you have no address

Hacking on the fly will get you an account & automatically log you onto the node(sr4a 235)

mutual signal range includes a route across multiple devices(thus allowing a hack on the fly)

I agree with that. I never learn anything more than "stick with what I do already".

QFT.

Unfortunately not:
BBB, p. 222:
When two devices are within the range of the lowest Signal rating of the two, they are said to be in mutual Signal range; this is required for direct device-to device communication

BBB, p 224:
you must be able to either connect with it [a target node] directly (with a wired connection, or when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through the Matrix network

The OP is right, under these rules hackers are extremely screwed - why use firewalls when you can just turn down the signal ratings of your ultra-secret server to 0 (3m range) and keep relay commlink nearby? Nobody will be able to hack it unless standing right next to the serve, in which case they could just steal the HDDs and wouldn't need a hacker. Riggers on the other hand would have a field day, a rotodrone with signal rating 0 and a signal 6 commlink glued onto it would be unhackable unless the enemy can jump real high...



Obviously this belongs into the same category as the ghoul apocalypse and will hopefully be covered by an upcoming errata (assuming that AH was wrong about those...).

As I've said, hacking on the fly includes the log on action. As a subscription comes from logging on, hacking on the fly does establish a subscription.

Now the rules could have been much clearer, yes, and in one particular sentence it does seem to be trying to say that you need the subscription before you can start to hack in, but as you stipulated in the OP this would lead to a circular dependence.

The closest thing I have to a pet hate on DS is the ideology that the identification of a paradox means the system is broken rather than concluding the interpretation is wrong. After all, why would they possibly want you to think that's what they meant? This is not to say that it is the interpreter's fault, it will usually be that of the author, but refusing to bend your interpretation because the text on the page also refuses to change doesn't help anyone. Instead of concluding that hacking is impossible it would be far more productive to conclude the author meant to say it a bit differently. Try it, your players will thank you.

DISCLAIMER – Your players will never thank you, ever, no matter how much work you put in to a game.

You are automatically logged in after you are finished, but to begin Hacking In, you must already have a subscription. Yes, it's stupid, but it's what the rules say. The rules for the Hack on the Fly action indicate that they are covered in more detail under the Hacking section, which states that you need a subscription to Hack. That does not mean "you must have a subscription at some future point in time", it means that you need one right now.

But what point are you trying to make? That the whole hacking thing was meant to be impossible or that the author screwed up?

Obviously it's not the first option, but you seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and give up on the whole thing rather than realise it wasn't meant to be unworkable or nonsensical, because you obviously understand the words and concepts being expressed. You haven't asked for help in making it work, so are you just trying to convince everyone here that they should stop using hacker characters?

It is annoying when you have to mentally creatively interpret an expensive book of which you had higher expectations, but if I were to rip out all the contradictory pages of all the roleplay books I own it'd free up half a shelf for my girlfriend to fill with yet more pointless books on art and film that she'll never read or throw away and I'm just not going to let that happen! So instead I do what everyone does (doubtlessly including you) and play a workable game based on the published material.

This has been pointed out before, all you discover is that no-one has actually read the hacking rules (in part because they are complex, and in part because they are awful) and are instead playing with random house rules on the basis of what they think the hacking rules say.

With such players/GM I guess that once everything is settled, Catalyst will keep their extra lawyers so that they can rewrite all the books.

Can you give the specific place you think it says that a subscription is necessary to Hack On the Fly? Or slow-hack, for that matter.

Just that first bit, 'mutual signal range or open subscription'? I realize I'm 'rebooting' the discussion a little, but I've gotten confused along the way.

I'm getting the vague idea that you could even read the text to imply you can make contact with something towards which you have no Signal relation (firect or indirect) whatsoever, as long as there is a subscription. I KNOW that's not supposed to be the meaning, but the text appears to imply it. Sloppy writing.

I'm nowhere near you, but I'm making contact with you thanks to my subscription here.

That actually would not be the worst idea. What lawyers and engineers learn is to consistently use one term for one thing, and make sure that term is well-defined to begin with. While the "elegance" of the text suffers, keeping your hands away from the thesaurus helps to convey the intended meaning.

I think he meant that if the person wasn't connected to the Matrix (or in the middle of a static or dead zone), that you could still connect to them if you had a subscription, by the way it was written.

@ Yerameyahu

First instance of the "mutual signal range or open subscription" text comes on page 224 in SR4A. I quote:

"You must subscribe to a node
if you want to “travel” to it in the Matrix, which means that you must
be able to either connect with it directly (with a wired connection, or
when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through
the Matrix network. Subscribing to a node is a Complex Action (Log
On, p. 231). When you log on to a node, your icon appears there."

Here it says that to subscribe to an account you just need to establish a route or be in mutual signal range.

If you look at Log-On it says:

"Log On (System)
You open a subscription to a node, and your icon appears there. This
requires no test, but does require either the proper authentication to an
account (such as a passcode) or a hacked account. You also need a connection
to the node’s device, either with a wired connection or a wireless
connection (by being within mutual Signal range or establishing a route
across multiple devices)."

So this says that you have to have a hacked account or proper authentication. Still makes sense, you must hack a node before subscribing it seems.

Now if you go to hacking on page 235, it has some contradictory text. It reads:

"The goal of hacking into a node is to create your own account on the target node. In
order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s
device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix."

I would say that the problem here is:

A). No where does the hacking rules or the log-on rules mention that if you try to log-on with no authentication then it gives you a public account. Of course, the ultra-hot server your trying to log onto is not going to give out public access.

B). Obviously, the goal of hacking is to create a hacked account so that you may open a subscription on a node and log-on with said hacked account. If you cannot hack an account without an open subscription then you cannot hack a node that does not allow public access. Of course this makes the decker have to go with the team in some instances but it does not seem to be the true meaning of the rules. I don't know where they lost their consistency but the small paragraph in the hacking section is obviously written poorly or is a copy-paste job. The rules pretty much say that to subscribe to a node, you need to establish an account. To establish an account you need to either use the public account or hack yourself an account. Seems simple to me even though the rules as written in RAW are not written well at all.

People act like RAW is some perfect Bible that can do no wrong and always has the right answers. Truth is, RAW were created by humans and humans make mistakes and are not perfect and sometimes write contradictory things in rule sets. RAW is not the end all be all, that is why the gamemaster and players have the right to get together and change things if needed.

It also means that we can actually use our common sense and interpret rules that may be contradictory or written poorly...

I see. But I always thought that you just subscribed to a node that *was* in mutual signal range, then hacked from there. You still don't *need* a subscription to hack. If you do have a subscription (i.e., at least Public access), you can hack up to a better account.

Obviously, if it has no wireless, you have to go wired: connect to the target node or a node hardwired to the target. Still no subscription to the target.

I understand that the entire point is 'ha ha, a minor textual brain-fart', but I don't even see that. I certainly don't see that 'it's a given' that the hacking actions we're talking about require subscriptions. I feel like it's clear they're special cases. *shrug*

Your point, I guess, is that we're not told explicitly that they're special. In the end, we agree: there's no real problem.

See, I am not saying that you need to have a subscription. I was just writing down the rules for you that contained that phrase "Mutual Signal range or route to the node" I personally think that you hack to get an account and subscription, not that you need a subscription to hack. I am on your side of the opinion I think!

In my game, I would let a hacker hack a node that he can see. If he can get a public account then it makes that step easier. They have to hack on the fly or probe the node to get a hacked account. Like I said, the goal of hacking, IMO, is to create a hacked account on a node. Since hacking on the fly logs you on automatically, it also subscribes you to the node. If you probe, you are not automatically logged in but you now have the info you need to log-on and subscribe to the account.

I am no matrix expert but this seems logical, to me at least.

I do think we agree here...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of an MSP (Matrix Service Provider- Black or legit) to give you at least one subscription from whence you can do all sorts of dirty hacking points? It seems to me that the problem with this discussion is that no one is considering it from the POV of multiple subscriptions.

1) You log into the Matrix via your commlink and MSP (whether you're using a legit service or not). You have your subscription to that public access node. That then is the initial subscription needed to hack into another node to create a new subscription / account.

2) Depending on where you're hacking, you have to be either in physical range (and there is official SR fiction in some of the opening sections of the books - Buzzkill for one) to hack the node or within Signal range of the node to do it.

3) Create new account and new subscription with your Madz Hackz Skillz because you just so L33T!

4) Logon again under new creds.

Point is, every commlink needs an MSP or it doesn't work. Whether you're paying a Black MSP under the table for an unregistered account or going the SprintNextel route, you still have an initial "in" to the Matrix from which all other things stem off of.

Right? Or am I totally wrong about this?

Right, Darkeus.

Catadmin, that makes sense to me. Obviously, nodes that don't have public access are simply a whole different animal, but that's not a problem. You have a teammate hook up a commlink via fiber optic to the target, DONE.

Right, but I think the point of the original "You must have a subscription before you can hack" essentially boils down to "If you're not online, you can't hack Jack(point)!" And the only way to get online (public or private) is to have an MSP for your commlink.

At least, that's how I read it. I now await further comments from other posters regarding this subject.

I feel vaguely like you could, if you really wanted to, hook your commlink to a node and sneak onto the matrix that way. Not sure. MSP is certainly easier.

Hmm, you bring up a good point!

*sigh*
You can perform the "Log On" to access a node and get that oh so golden subscription you need to hack that node without having to hack said node first. The Matrix Action "Log On" description is lacking this bit of info.

And before someone starts going off on about something like high security nodes won't have a "public" option, consider that the node must let you sign on to at least Public access to tell you that you've got absolutely no access to it in the first place. Once you get that "Access Denied" message, you've got your subscription.

Using Dumpshock as an example, everyone here who's posting has a subscription with User level access at least. Those without a user name and password can still come to the site and get some information at least (not sure what all is restricted to Guest accounts); that's a subscription with Public level access.

Well, no, they don't have to give you an Access Denied subscription. There's no reason high security nodes couldn't be Hidden, which means they only respond to valid access [SR4A, p264]. But this isn't a problem, because you brought friends with wired jacks.

When you're accessing Dumpshock's forums, can you hack Microsoft's servers? No, you need to hack Dumpshock's servers first. This is analogous to how you need to be in mutual signal with your target -- not over the net, but something that you either have hacked or that you control has to be in mutual signal range with the target. That's the IC reasoning.

The OOC reason is that hackers should get to feel useful during a run. Now they aren't hacking, then the rest of the group does the real run, now the real run is expressly done to support the hacker during his hack. Once he's hacked, he can subscribe to the node, then he can hack from a distance during the next run or whenever (noting the limit on subscriptions).

So, to hack Big Bob's, you can either go hang out in front of (or behind or to the sides) of Big Bob's, or inside Big Bob's, or you can hack every node in between you and Big Bob's. For most groups, it's far easier to just go do a run on Big Bob's.