Hacker cannot Hack, Has no commlink, will not travel Options

[Red-ROM]

I find that these discussions tend to hinder my understanding of the matrix more than help it.

If a node is wireless. then its part of the matrix (that whole "mesh network" thing). WiFi devices are made to bounce signals off of, no questions asked.

If your hacking from 100 miles away, you'll need the address, or you'll have to search for it (try to google for a phone number, could be impossible).

If its Hidden, you have to scan for it, this takes mutual signal range because you have no address

Hacking on the fly will get you an account & automatically log you onto the node(sr4a 235)

mutual signal range includes a route across multiple devices(thus allowing a hack on the fly)

[Darkeus]

I agree with that. I never learn anything more than "stick with what I do already".

[Draco18s]

I find that these discussions tend to hinder my understanding of the matrix more than help it.

QFT.

[Sengir]

mutual signal range includes a route across multiple devices(thus allowing a hack on the fly)

Unfortunately not:
BBB, p. 222:
When two devices are within the range of the lowest Signal rating of the two, they are said to be in mutual Signal range; this is required for direct device-to device communication

BBB, p 224:
you must be able to either connect with it [a target node] directly (with a wired connection, or when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through the Matrix network

The OP is right, under these rules hackers are extremely screwed - why use firewalls when you can just turn down the signal ratings of your ultra-secret server to 0 (3m range) and keep relay commlink nearby? Nobody will be able to hack it unless standing right next to the serve, in which case they could just steal the HDDs and wouldn't need a hacker. Riggers on the other hand would have a field day, a rotodrone with signal rating 0 and a signal 6 commlink glued onto it would be unhackable unless the enemy can jump real high...



Obviously this belongs into the same category as the ghoul apocalypse and will hopefully be covered by an upcoming errata (assuming that AH was wrong about those...).

[Aerospider]

Thus, you cannot take the action at the same time you take the Log On action ... the Hack on the Fly action also does not state that it establishes a subscription as part of its operation.

As I've said, hacking on the fly includes the log on action. As a subscription comes from logging on, hacking on the fly does establish a subscription.

Now the rules could have been much clearer, yes, and in one particular sentence it does seem to be trying to say that you need the subscription before you can start to hack in, but as you stipulated in the OP this would lead to a circular dependence.

The closest thing I have to a pet hate on DS is the ideology that the identification of a paradox means the system is broken rather than concluding the interpretation is wrong. After all, why would they possibly want you to think that's what they meant? This is not to say that it is the interpreter's fault, it will usually be that of the author, but refusing to bend your interpretation because the text on the page also refuses to change doesn't help anyone. Instead of concluding that hacking is impossible it would be far more productive to conclude the author meant to say it a bit differently. Try it, your players will thank you.

DISCLAIMER – Your players will never thank you, ever, no matter how much work you put in to a game.

[Heath Robinson]

As I've said, hacking on the fly includes the log on action. As a subscription comes from logging on, hacking on the fly does establish a subscription.

Hacking
When you beat the threshold and gain the account, you are automatically logged onto the node with that level of access, and do not need to spend a Log On action (unless you log off ).

You are automatically logged in after you are finished, but to begin Hacking In, you must already have a subscription. Yes, it's stupid, but it's what the rules say. The rules for the Hack on the Fly action indicate that they are covered in more detail under the Hacking section, which states that you need a subscription to Hack. That does not mean "you must have a subscription at some future point in time", it means that you need one right now.

[Aerospider]

You are automatically logged in after you are finished, but to begin Hacking In, you must already have a subscription. Yes, it's stupid, but it's what the rules say. The rules for the Hack on the Fly action indicate that they are covered in more detail under the Hacking section, which states that you need a subscription to Hack. That does not mean "you must have a subscription at some future point in time", it means that you need one right now.

But what point are you trying to make? That the whole hacking thing was meant to be impossible or that the author screwed up?

Obviously it's not the first option, but you seem to want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and give up on the whole thing rather than realise it wasn't meant to be unworkable or nonsensical, because you obviously understand the words and concepts being expressed. You haven't asked for help in making it work, so are you just trying to convince everyone here that they should stop using hacker characters?

It is annoying when you have to mentally creatively interpret an expensive book of which you had higher expectations, but if I were to rip out all the contradictory pages of all the roleplay books I own it'd free up half a shelf for my girlfriend to fill with yet more pointless books on art and film that she'll never read or throw away and I'm just not going to let that happen! So instead I do what everyone does (doubtlessly including you) and play a workable game based on the published material.

[Cthulhudreams]

This has been pointed out before, all you discover is that no-one has actually read the hacking rules (in part because they are complex, and in part because they are awful) and are instead playing with random house rules on the basis of what they think the hacking rules say.

[Blade]

With such players/GM I guess that once everything is settled, Catalyst will keep their extra lawyers so that they can rewrite all the books.

[Yerameyahu]

Can you give the specific place you think it says that a subscription is necessary to Hack On the Fly? Or slow-hack, for that matter.

Just that first bit, 'mutual signal range or open subscription'? I realize I'm 'rebooting' the discussion a little, but I've gotten confused along the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Ascalaphus]

I'm getting the vague idea that you could even read the text to imply you can make contact with something towards which you have no Signal relation (firect or indirect) whatsoever, as long as there is a subscription. I KNOW that's not supposed to be the meaning, but the text appears to imply it. Sloppy writing.

[Ol' Scratch]

I'm getting the vague idea that you could even read the text to imply you can make contact with something towards which you have no Signal relation (firect or indirect) whatsoever, as long as there is a subscription. I KNOW that's not supposed to be the meaning, but the text appears to imply it. Sloppy writing.

I'm nowhere near you, but I'm making contact with you thanks to my subscription here.

[Sengir]

With such players/GM I guess that once everything is settled, Catalyst will keep their extra lawyers so that they can rewrite all the books.

That actually would not be the worst idea. What lawyers and engineers learn is to consistently use one term for one thing, and make sure that term is well-defined to begin with. While the "elegance" of the text suffers, keeping your hands away from the thesaurus helps to convey the intended meaning.

[Eratosthenes]

I'm nowhere near you, but I'm making contact with you thanks to my subscription here.

I think he meant that if the person wasn't connected to the Matrix (or in the middle of a static or dead zone), that you could still connect to them if you had a subscription, by the way it was written.

[Darkeus]

@ Yerameyahu

First instance of the "mutual signal range or open subscription" text comes on page 224 in SR4A. I quote:

"You must subscribe to a node
if you want to “travel” to it in the Matrix, which means that you must
be able to either connect with it directly (with a wired connection, or
when within mutual Signal range) or by establishing a route through
the Matrix network. Subscribing to a node is a Complex Action (Log
On, p. 231). When you log on to a node, your icon appears there."

Here it says that to subscribe to an account you just need to establish a route or be in mutual signal range.

If you look at Log-On it says:

"Log On (System)
You open a subscription to a node, and your icon appears there. This
requires no test, but does require either the proper authentication to an
account (such as a passcode) or a hacked account. You also need a connection
to the node’s device, either with a wired connection or a wireless
connection (by being within mutual Signal range or establishing a route
across multiple devices)."

So this says that you have to have a hacked account or proper authentication. Still makes sense, you must hack a node before subscribing it seems.

Now if you go to hacking on page 235, it has some contradictory text. It reads:

"The goal of hacking into a node is to create your own account on the target node. In
order to hack a node, you must either be within mutual Signal range of the target node’s
device or have an open subscription with the node through the Matrix."

I would say that the problem here is:

A). No where does the hacking rules or the log-on rules mention that if you try to log-on with no authentication then it gives you a public account. Of course, the ultra-hot server your trying to log onto is not going to give out public access.

B). Obviously, the goal of hacking is to create a hacked account so that you may open a subscription on a node and log-on with said hacked account. If you cannot hack an account without an open subscription then you cannot hack a node that does not allow public access. Of course this makes the decker have to go with the team in some instances but it does not seem to be the true meaning of the rules. I don't know where they lost their consistency but the small paragraph in the hacking section is obviously written poorly or is a copy-paste job. The rules pretty much say that to subscribe to a node, you need to establish an account. To establish an account you need to either use the public account or hack yourself an account. Seems simple to me even though the rules as written in RAW are not written well at all.

People act like RAW is some perfect Bible that can do no wrong and always has the right answers. Truth is, RAW were created by humans and humans make mistakes and are not perfect and sometimes write contradictory things in rule sets. RAW is not the end all be all, that is why the gamemaster and players have the right to get together and change things if needed.

It also means that we can actually use our common sense and interpret rules that may be contradictory or written poorly...

[Yerameyahu]

I see. But I always thought that you just subscribed to a node that *was* in mutual signal range, then hacked from there. You still don't *need* a subscription to hack. If you do have a subscription (i.e., at least Public access), you can hack up to a better account.

Obviously, if it has no wireless, you have to go wired: connect to the target node or a node hardwired to the target. Still no subscription to the target.

I understand that the entire point is 'ha ha, a minor textual brain-fart', but I don't even see that. I certainly don't see that 'it's a given' that the hacking actions we're talking about require subscriptions. I feel like it's clear they're special cases. *shrug*

Your point, I guess, is that we're not told explicitly that they're special. In the end, we agree: there's no real problem.

[Darkeus]

I see. But I always thought that you just subscribed to a node that *was* in mutual signal range, then hacked from there. You still don't *need* a subscription to hack. If you do have a subscription (i.e., at least Public access), you can hack up to a better account.

Obviously, if it has no wireless, you have to go wired: connect to the target node or a node hardwired to the target. Still no subscription to the target.

I understand that the entire point is 'ha ha, a minor textual brain-fart', but I don't even see that. I certainly don't see that 'it's a given' that the hacking actions we're talking about require subscriptions. I feel like it's clear they're special cases. *shrug*

Your point, I guess, is that we're not told explicitly that they're special. In the end, we agree: there's no real problem.

See, I am not saying that you need to have a subscription. I was just writing down the rules for you that contained that phrase "Mutual Signal range or route to the node" I personally think that you hack to get an account and subscription, not that you need a subscription to hack. I am on your side of the opinion I think!

In my game, I would let a hacker hack a node that he can see. If he can get a public account then it makes that step easier. They have to hack on the fly or probe the node to get a hacked account. Like I said, the goal of hacking, IMO, is to create a hacked account on a node. Since hacking on the fly logs you on automatically, it also subscribes you to the node. If you probe, you are not automatically logged in but you now have the info you need to log-on and subscribe to the account.

I am no matrix expert but this seems logical, to me at least.

I do think we agree here... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Catadmin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of an MSP (Matrix Service Provider- Black or legit) to give you at least one subscription from whence you can do all sorts of dirty hacking points? It seems to me that the problem with this discussion is that no one is considering it from the POV of multiple subscriptions.

1) You log into the Matrix via your commlink and MSP (whether you're using a legit service or not). You have your subscription to that public access node. That then is the initial subscription needed to hack into another node to create a new subscription / account.

2) Depending on where you're hacking, you have to be either in physical range (and there is official SR fiction in some of the opening sections of the books - Buzzkill for one) to hack the node or within Signal range of the node to do it.

3) Create new account and new subscription with your Madz Hackz Skillz because you just so L33T!

4) Logon again under new creds.

Point is, every commlink needs an MSP or it doesn't work. Whether you're paying a Black MSP under the table for an unregistered account or going the SprintNextel route, you still have an initial "in" to the Matrix from which all other things stem off of.

Right? Or am I totally wrong about this?

[Yerameyahu]

Right, Darkeus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Catadmin, that makes sense to me. Obviously, nodes that don't have public access are simply a whole different animal, but that's not a problem. You have a teammate hook up a commlink via fiber optic to the target, DONE.

[Catadmin]

Catadmin, that makes sense to me. Obviously, nodes that don't have public access are simply a whole different animal...

Right, but I think the point of the original "You must have a subscription before you can hack" essentially boils down to "If you're not online, you can't hack Jack(point)!" And the only way to get online (public or private) is to have an MSP for your commlink.

At least, that's how I read it. I now await further comments from other posters regarding this subject.

[Yerameyahu]

I feel vaguely like you could, if you really wanted to, hook your commlink to a node and sneak onto the matrix that way. Not sure. MSP is certainly easier.

[Darkeus]

Hmm, you bring up a good point!

[SpellBinder]

*sigh*

A public account is a sort of “foyer” for a node. When logging on without any authentication, you get a public account. Public accounts usually allow the user to access public information about the node, and could also allow a small amount of functionality, like the ability to order food, shop, fill out forms, etc., depending on the node’s purpose. Most retail outlets, malls, restaurants, and other nodes open to the public offer this account to customers.

You can perform the "Log On" to access a node and get that oh so golden subscription you need to hack that node without having to hack said node first. The Matrix Action "Log On" description is lacking this bit of info.

And before someone starts going off on about something like high security nodes won't have a "public" option, consider that the node must let you sign on to at least Public access to tell you that you've got absolutely no access to it in the first place. Once you get that "Access Denied" message, you've got your subscription.

Using Dumpshock as an example, everyone here who's posting has a subscription with User level access at least. Those without a user name and password can still come to the site and get some information at least (not sure what all is restricted to Guest accounts); that's a subscription with Public level access.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, no, they don't have to give you an Access Denied subscription. There's no reason high security nodes couldn't be Hidden, which means they only respond to valid access [SR4A, p264]. But this isn't a problem, because you brought friends with wired jacks.

[Banaticus]

When you're accessing Dumpshock's forums, can you hack Microsoft's servers? No, you need to hack Dumpshock's servers first. This is analogous to how you need to be in mutual signal with your target -- not over the net, but something that you either have hacked or that you control has to be in mutual signal range with the target. That's the IC reasoning.

The OOC reason is that hackers should get to feel useful during a run. Now they aren't hacking, then the rest of the group does the real run, now the real run is expressly done to support the hacker during his hack. Once he's hacked, he can subscribe to the node, then he can hack from a distance during the next run or whenever (noting the limit on subscriptions).

So, to hack Big Bob's, you can either go hang out in front of (or behind or to the sides) of Big Bob's, or inside Big Bob's, or you can hack every node in between you and Big Bob's. For most groups, it's far easier to just go do a run on Big Bob's.