Hacker cannot Hack, Has no commlink, will not travel Options

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think that's how it works in SR4, though. Routing is free and easy. It Just Works™. You just route up to any mesh device, *anything*, that's in range of/connected to the target.

[Aerospider]

Point is, every commlink needs an MSP or it doesn't work.

I'm really quite surprised nobody's yet picked up on this because it really, really isn't true.

Commlinks own their own wireless functionality - it's not like today where you need an ISP to hire out the use of their cables to you. When a commlink tries to communicate wirelessly with another active node (either in MSR or by routing) be it his buddy's 'link two feet to the left or a big corporate nexus on the other side of the planet, it will do so. There's no inherent physical or legal obstruction that having an MSP will circumvent.

MSPs (IIRC, AFB) are simply there to provide Matrix services like commcodes, secure data storage and access to common use programs (Browse in particular). They make the experience easier and more pleasant for almost all 'Trix-surfers, but that's not usually much of a priority to SINless shadowrunners.

[Sengir]

When you're accessing Dumpshock's forums, can you hack Microsoft's servers?

The DS forum server is not a router. The correct analogy would be "when you are accessing Microsoft's servers via a router (which you do unless directly plugged into the server), can you hack them or does the simple retransmission done by the router make hacking impossible?"

The OOC reason is that hackers should get to feel useful during a run.

Option one, hacking or routers does not work:
"Right, I'll do a quick virtual dungeon crawl though the cleaning drone, ceiling light, bad guy A's commlink and bad guy B's underwear to finally reach bad guy B's commlink. Then I'll screw around with all devices in his PAn which are directly connected to the commlink. Maybe you guys want to watch some TV while me and the GM do all that?"

Option two, routers do not provide some sort of magical barrier to hackers:
"I start hacking bad guy B's commlink, next round his smartlink is toast"


Which of the two makes a hacker more useful?

[Draco18s]

I don't think that's how it works in SR4, though. Routing is free and easy. It Just Works™.

Yes. But...

You just route up to any mesh device, *anything*, that's in range of/connected to the target.

That's a problem with the system that needs to be fixed.

[Darkeus]

What says you have to hack every node to establish a route. Unwired says routing is automatic.

You don't have to hack every node you use as a path to Big Bob's. That makes no sense at all! Most nodes give you public access, which is more than enough to gain a subscription and move on. You only hack what you need to hack. Over-complicating it again...

[Sengir]

Most nodes give you public access, which is more than enough to gain a subscription and move on.

Public access does not allow you to programs, good luck hacking without one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, neither drones nor underwear should have a public account, and inside a corp installation even toggling the lights requires you to be an authentified user of the corp network.

That makes no sense at all!

...which is why I consider the "you can only hack in signal range" passage an oversight by the writers, just like the unstoppable ghoul apocalypse

[Darkeus]

Public access does not allow you to programs, good luck hacking without one (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Besides, neither drones nor underwear should have a public account, and inside a corp installation even toggling the lights requires you to be an authentified user of the corp network.

It isn't necessary to run programs in a node with a public account when making a path, you just need to make a path. No need to hack these nodes. Public accounts log you on to a node and open a subscription. From there, you hack.

Plus I think the idea of having to have an open subscription to hack a node is the contradiction in the rules when it seems obvious that your goal in hacking is to open a subscription using a hacked account. Therefore it makes no sense to have to open a subscription first before you hack saying the contradiction in the rules would make that impossible...


Ah forget it, I think most of us agree here. I feel like I am really just preaching to the quire... The rules are jacked up and it is best if you don't over think them or it gets too complicated...

[Sengir]

It isn't necessary to run programs in a node with a public account when making a path, you just need to make a path. No need to hack these nodes. Public accounts log you on to a node and open a subscription. From there, you hack.

Let's assume you have a chain of nodes from node 1 (your commlink) to node n (the target host).
Hacking node n requires you to run an exploit program on node n-1, so you need to hack node n-1 for user rights. Hacking node n-1 requires you to run an exploit program on node n-2, so you need to hack node n-2 for user rights...

re·cur·sion (rɪˈkɜːʃən)
n. Mathematics
See ->recursion

Ah forget it, I think most of us agree here.

Yeah, we just disagree about how much insanity this obvious error by the authors generates ^^

[Yerameyahu]

You're not running the program on the node. If you were, it would count toward that node's program limit, and it doesn't. Unless you want to do that specfically, in which case you don't get your bonuses anyway.

Hacking's supposed to be simple. Auto-routing, hack in, boom. There are plenty of ways to lock down nodes, but also plenty of room for hackers to play in. Cuz it's a game.

Good catch on the MSP thing, Aerospider. That's explicitly given in the SR4A.

[Darkeus]

Eh, I was gonna write something but forget it. I 'll just stick to trying to run it the way I always have. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) With these rules, whatever makes sense should work for you!

I agree 100% with the above post.

[DireRadiant]

Let's assume you have a chain of nodes from node 1 (your commlink) to node n (the target host).
Hacking node n requires you to run an exploit program on node n-1, so you need to hack node n-1 for user rights. Hacking node n-1 requires you to run an exploit program on node n-2, so you need to hack node n-2 for user rights...

Why am I running my Exploit program in the routing nodes instead of my own commlink?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Exactly... You aren't... or at least, you shouldn't be...
Your programs run off of your 'link... all except the IC/Worms/Agents that you drop in the target node that is...

Routing is not Hacking...

Hacking occurs at the endpoint, not in between, unless the system architecture you are intent upon hacking has multiple layers, then of course, you must penetrate each and every layer before finding the data/device you are seeking...

Keep the Faith

[Ascalaphus]

If you had to subscribe to every node you're routed to, then you'd hit your subscription limit pretty fast.

Another problem is the vagueness about "accounts" and "access"; sometimes it seems you can have access either with or without an account. (And, of course, the vagueness about what level of account you need, and what you could do as Admin; shut down IC?)

[Sengir]

You're not running the program on the node.

If hacking was only possible from a node in mutual signal range and rounting made hacking impossible, you would have to run the exploit program on a node in mutual signal range.


That would be horribly complicated, completely against the design philosophy of the new matrix and basically make hackers unplayable? Congratulations, you got my point (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Dixie Flatline]

See Unwired's chapter on routing:
A routing is established every time data from node A want to access node B, facilitating other nodes in between as routers. Due to the mesh-network nature of the Matrix, every wireless node can function as a router and will do so if not in passive or hidden mode (see PAN modes, p. 211, SR4). Even peripheral nodes participate in the mesh network routing, though priority is given to standard nodes and nexi

Exploit:

Hack the nearby major traffic hub to use Sam the Street Sammy's comlink that he's using for AR to become the next major hop for the regional matrix.

Now his comlink smokes under the load.

The problem with mesh network is that it's INCREDIBLY inefficient in a wireless environment. It also sounds like the wireless matrix includes inherent blind trust of all neighboring nodes when it comes to routing traffic. I find that hard to believe after 20 years of deckers/hackers running rampant nobody would design a system that makes such things a little more difficult. In fact, in fluff, it's to the contrary. A new matrix system was built from the *ground* up, and instead of making it more difficult to do illicit stuff, they instead in many ways made it a *lot* easier.

[Red-ROM]

Exploit:

Hack the nearby major traffic hub to use Sam the Street Sammy's comlink that he's using for AR to become the next major hop for the regional matrix.

Now his comlink smokes under the load.

The problem with mesh network is that it's INCREDIBLY inefficient in a wireless environment. It also sounds like the wireless matrix includes inherent blind trust of all neighboring nodes when it comes to routing traffic. I find that hard to believe after 20 years of deckers/hackers running rampant nobody would design a system that makes such things a little more difficult. In fact, in fluff, it's to the contrary. A new matrix system was built from the *ground* up, and instead of making it more difficult to do illicit stuff, they instead in many ways made it a *lot* easier.

The only thing I can imagine is that routers are hardwired to seek out different paths as needed, just like they redirect signals from other nodes automatically. Maybe you would have to physicaly alter the traffic hub to melt that commlink. Or maybe they're designed in a way that they can handle whatever traffic you throw at them. I guess I have two points;

1) the future is magic, we don't understand it.
2) there's many things in SR done for game balance, or cinematic effect, so you have to wave your hands a little at the details

[Yerameyahu]

I assume that it's communism; no device is given more traffic than it can handle, and all devices freely help. *shrug* Don't really care, in the end.

[Darkeus]

I would agree that the above is probably the reality. It seems to impy in the routing section that data is constantly rerouted if need be.

[Catadmin]

I assume that it's communism; no device is given more traffic than it can handle, and all devices freely help.

RL Load balancing at work. S.E.T.I. does that by getting people to subscribe to their services and then uses your idle CPU cycles to crunch their numbers. Or at least they did. Not sure if they still are.

Still, that would make an interesting plot hook. Deus part million & 3, anyone? @=)

(runs away to hide).

[Draco18s]

RL Load balancing at work. S.E.T.I. does that by getting people to subscribe to their services and then uses your idle CPU cycles to crunch their numbers. Or at least they did. Not sure if they still are.

I think SETI@home is still active, but for the most part its been subsumed by a larger conglomerate called World Community Grid. The last time I had it installed my computer used its free cycles computing the folding of proteins (for cancer research).

Had a really nifty screensaver too. You could actually see it at work.

[Sengir]

Exploit:

Hack the nearby major traffic hub to use Sam the Street Sammy's comlink that he's using for AR to become the next major hop for the regional matrix.

Now his comlink smokes under the load.

The problem with mesh network is that it's INCREDIBLY inefficient in a wireless environment. It also sounds like the wireless matrix includes inherent blind trust of all neighboring nodes when it comes to routing traffic. I find that hard to believe after 20 years of deckers/hackers running rampant nobody would design a system that makes such things a little more difficult. In fact, in fluff, it's to the contrary. A new matrix system was built from the *ground* up, and instead of making it more difficult to do illicit stuff, they instead in many ways made it a *lot* easier.

That is part of the reason why the topic of scatternets has produced the equivalent of a few rainforests in papers and theses, but nobody has ever come up with a workable concept, let alone a prototype. But SR assumes that It Just Works��™ so we don't need to worry about that.

[Catadmin]

Point is, every commlink needs an MSP or it doesn't work

I'm really quite surprised nobody's yet picked up on this because it really, really isn't true.

Commlinks own their own wireless functionality - it's not like today where you need an ISP to hire out the use of their cables to you. When a commlink tries to communicate wirelessly with another active node (either in MSR or by routing) be it his buddy's 'link two feet to the left or a big corporate nexus on the other side of the planet, it will do so. There's no inherent physical or legal obstruction that having an MSP will circumvent.

It's a good point, but I have to politely disagree.

Bluetooth devices own their own wireless functionality too. You can network devices in your house all day long together (which is what a commlink does), but that doesn't give any of them access to the internet. This is the difference between LAN mentality and WAN mentality. Though, is SR terms, we're calling the LAN a PAN.

A PAN can receive signal because AROs are basically set up to broadcast in wide open "See me here" mode, but that doesn't mean they can reach out and touch some one without an MSP.

I guess my interpretation of the rules on this one will just have to be different from yours on this one.

[Yerameyahu]

That'd have to be a house-rule. The book is explicit that no MSP is required: "An MSP is not necessary for surf- ing or hacking, but most casual users (and many shadowrunners) find the services offered by MSPs to be useful in their day-to-day routines." (SR4A, p218).

[KarmaInferno]

The OP is right, under these rules hackers are extremely screwed - why use firewalls when you can just turn down the signal ratings of your ultra-secret server to 0 (3m range) and keep relay commlink nearby? Nobody will be able to hack it unless standing right next to the serve, in which case they could just steal the HDDs and wouldn't need a hacker.

Um...

How is this different than previous editions of SR where all the REALLY secure servers had no connection to the Matrix at all? Where you had to send in a hacker to personally interface with the server to do any hacking?



-karma

[Catadmin]

How is this different than previous editions of SR where all the REALLY secure servers had no connection to the Matrix at all? Where you had to send in a hacker to personally interface with the server to do any hacking?

Beside the fact that you don't have to carry around 15 lbs of deck to do it? @=)

It's not, really.

Oh, and thanks to Yerameyahu for the specific page reference. I apparently missed that.