Who would use explosive or EX-EX ammo? Who would make it?, No one of course Options

[Smokeskin]

Per the rules, explosive and EX-EX ammo sometimes blow up, destroying the weapon and damaging the user.

Who would use something like that? Certainly not any sort of professional outfit, like military, police or corpsec. I don't see a market for it in self defense either.

Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.

Leaving a side the obvious unrealism of most character types picking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?

There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something unreliable like that would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made ammo type?

[DWC]

Everything with a warhead has a chance of misfiring and premature detonation. That doesn't stop any military in the world from issuing rockets, missiles, mortars, grenades, and the like to their personnel. Look at flamethrowers. If a weapon is effective enough, the risks to the user will be deemed acceptable and the weapon will be pressed into service.

[Banaticus]

Then again, how many wired-acceleration cars has Toyota sold recently? This is what happens when corps get extraterritoriality and don't have to follow nonsensical "safety" regulations made by some stupid country's legislature. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ol' Scratch]

It doesn't damage the weapon, it just damages the shooter. And only in the case of a critical glitch, which happens once in a blue moon if you're particularly unskilled and uncoordinated (low Agility), or a possessor of incredibly bad luck (such as with the Gremlins quality). This type of ammo exists in the real world, too, so it's not like it's unrealistic. And considering that it's a Forbidden type of ammo, it's perfectly reasonable to have it in the game as is.

Taking even a large risk for a mild boost is pretty common in the real world, too. Especially when you play at the games a professional criminal like a shadowrunner does.

[Smokeskin]

Everything with a warhead has a chance of misfiring and premature detonation. That doesn't stop any military in the world from issuing rockets, missiles, mortars, grenades, and the like to their personnel. Look at flamethrowers. If a weapon is effective enough, the risks to the user will be deemed acceptable and the weapon will be pressed into service.

In case you're not aware of it, all other ammo types in SR can be fired rather more safely. Explosive ammo has special rules that cause the firearm to explode in the user's hands on a critical glitch.

You're looking at an ammo type that will wound you and destroy your weapon at a frequency high enough for it to not pass any sort of military or law enforcement quality testing for example.

[Smokeskin]

Then again, how many wired-acceleration cars has Toyota sold recently? This is what happens when corps get extraterritoriality and don't have to follow nonsensical "safety" regulations made by some stupid country's legislature. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Extraterritoriality won't free them from liability. A corp with extraterritorial status can't just do whatever it wants outside of its own territory - maybe if they're willing to completely drop a country as a market they could get away with it, but being willing to do that just to sell some bad ammo seems a bit farfetched.

[puke]

its just another instance of the rules being there for game balance rather than realism. even if the ammo was at high risk of cooking off, it shouldnt pose a substantial threat to the user.

militaries were reluctant to place bullpup weapons into service due to the risk of a malfunction or magazine-cookoff being right at the operators cheek. the counter was to redesign the weapons to reinforce the upper reciever and weaken the side, allowing catastrophic malfunctions to vent out the breach or out the magwell. Soldiers have survived such malfunctions with only minor injuries.

Castles designed their black powder magazines the same way. So did warships.

In the modern world, there is a stigma against caseless cartridges for similar reasons. but that stuff is ubiquitous in SR, and a magazine full of ex-ex isnt going to be any risker than that. so really, its just a game. and theyre just rules. they create a certain kind of balance, and you can either use them or not.

If you're going to start streaching everything to see how well it covers the full scope of its impact on society and how it fits into the economic landscape, you really should have started at the magic section.

[Jaid]

Per the rules, explosive and EX-EX ammo sometimes blow up, destroying the weapon and damaging the user.

Who would use something like that? Certainly not any sort of professional outfit, like military, police or corpsec. I don't see a market for it in self defense either.

Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.

Leaving a side the obvious unrealism of most character types picking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?

There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something unreliable like that would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made ammo type?

all you need is a spirit or a sprite on your side with the appropriate power (guard and stability, respectively) and its perfectly safe.

[FriendoftheDork]

Remember that for centuries armies used gunpowder weapons that could and did blow up in their user's faces. Yet they were used nevertheless.

Also it's hard to equal critical glitches with reliability. The ammo does in not way increase the CHANCE of a critical glitch, and that the concept of glitching is by itself arbitrary and based on a users skill with weapon as well as circumstantial modifiers that should have no impact on if the weapon malfunctions or not.

The way I see it explosive ammunition is just as reliable as normal ones, as long as they are loaded properly. I've never once seen explosive ammo blow up that way anyway.

[KnightRunner]

In case you're not aware of it, all other ammo types in SR can be fired rather more safely. Explosive ammo has special rules that cause the firearm to explode in the user's hands on a critical glitch.

What the hell kind of post is this? Of course we are aware of the ammo rules. Its not like we missed them. We just happen to use reason and common sense when reading them.

First of all its a game. In case you are not aware of it. The special rule is a game mechanic to balance out the obvious advantage of the ammo. So quit trying to apply real world logic in such a direct manner.

You're looking at an ammo type that will wound you and destroy your weapon at a frequency high enough for it to not pass any sort of military or law enforcement quality testing for example.

Talk about making assumptions. I did not read anything in the rules about ammo being quality tested. Heck I do not even see a point in the book that says the ammo WILL wound you or destroy the weapon. There is a small CHANCE that you can be wounded if you roll a crit glitch and are all out of edge. But that is so rare I have yet to see it happen.

And just for the record ammo does sometimes explode and cause injury in the real word. It is just a very rare occurrence.

[Smokeskin]

It doesn't damage the weapon, it just damages the shooter. And only in the case of a critical glitch, which happens once in a blue moon if you're particularly unskilled and uncoordinated (low Agility), or a possessor of incredibly bad luck (such as with the Gremlins quality). This type of ammo exists in the real world, too, so it's not like it's unrealistic.

It doesn't say that it damages the weapon, but how would it damage the shooter without ruining the weapon?

At low dice pools, critical glitches are far from uncommon. Even people with decent Agility and skill levels are going to be looking at low dice pools often enough. If you take a veteran soldier (agi 4 skill 4) with a smartlink, that's only 10 dice. A typical combat situation he's going to be in cover (-1) firing at someone in good cover (-4). That's 5 dice, and that's close to your optimal situation. Say there's some light smoke and medium range, and this highly trained well equipped soldier is rolling 2 dice and he has 20% of his ammo going off each time he pulls the trigger. Per the rules, there is no way something like that would be used by the military.

You say this ammo exists in the real world, what are you referring to?

[Yerameyahu]

I thought cover increased the defender's pool. That setup addresses the problem.

[KnightRunner]

It doesn't say that it damages the weapon, but how would it damage the shooter without ruining the weapon?

Because that is what the rule you are so hung up on says. How can you complain about a rule when you are adding things to it?

Besides weapons are made of material (like metal) that is slightly more durable than flesh.

[Smokeskin]

First of all its a game. In case you are not aware of it. The special rule is a game mechanic to balance out the obvious advantage of the ammo. So quit trying to apply real world logic in such a direct manner.

Haha, of course I won't quit applying "real world logic" to the game. That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. "In my game, the army uses ammo that blows up a lot, because they're using rpg logic" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[DWC]

In case you're not aware of it, all other ammo types in SR can be fired rather more safely. Explosive ammo has special rules that cause the firearm to explode in the user's hands on a critical glitch.

You're looking at an ammo type that will wound you and destroy your weapon at a frequency high enough for it to not pass any sort of military or law enforcement quality testing for example.

I think you're overestimating the frequency of critical glitches. Take an average Law Enforcement shooter. Give him a 3 agility and a 2 pistols along with a smartlink for a DP of 7. Check out the odds of getting at least 4 1s with no successes.

[KnightRunner]

Haha, of course I won't quit applying "real world logic" to the game. That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. "In my game, the army uses ammo that blows up a lot, because they're using rpg logic" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Once again. What the hell kind of post is this? Are you trying to be a dumbass or does it just come naturally?

In a game with Dragons, Megacorps, Cyberware, Nanoware, and Magic, it is the unrealistic exploding ammo you can not buy into?

[Ol' Scratch]

It doesn't say that it damages the weapon, but how would it damage the shooter without ruining the weapon?

Because that's what the rule you're bitching about says.

At low dice pools, critical glitches are far from uncommon. Even people with decent Agility and skill levels are going to be looking at low dice pools often enough. If you take a veteran soldier (agi 4 skill 4) with a smartlink, that's only 10 dice. A typical combat situation he's going to be in cover (-1) firing at someone in good cover (-4). That's 5 dice, and that's close to your optimal situation. Say there's some light smoke and medium range, and this highly trained well equipped soldier is rolling 2 dice and he has 20% of his ammo going off each time he pulls the trigger. Per the rules, there is no way something like that would be used by the military.

Gosh, you sure do like to throw on negative modifiers. Nevermind the numerous positive ones. Such as, oh I don't know, a smartlink, tracer rounds, recoil compensation, vision enhancement, aimed shots, and etc., or the fact that you're applying positive modifiers for the defender as a negative modifier for the attacker. Why stop at 2 dice? Why not just lower it to 1 or even 0? Or just wave your magic wand and say that all dice always come up as a 1 since we're making up bullshit scenarios anyway.

Say what you want, but critical glitches are insanely uncommon. Especially since there's this stat called "Edge." Which, you know, can be used to negate it any number of ways even on the unlikely chance it does come up.

I don't know why you mention it though. Everyone should be using Stick-n-Shock 24/7 anyway.

You say this ammo exists in the real world, what are you referring to?

There's this thing called Google. It's pretty helpful for discovering things like that.

[DWC]

It probably doesn't help that many people seem to confuse explosive ammunition (which is really just frangible ammunition) with some sort of microgrenade.

[kzt]

There's this thing called Google. It's pretty helpful for discovering things like that.

Particularly when someone just makes shit up and hence can't actually provide any examples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Nobody uses explosive ammo in pistols and rifles because it doesn't actually do anything useful and because it's actively dangerous to the person shooting it.

[Smokeskin]

Once again. What the hell kind of post is this? Are you trying to be a dumbass or does it just come naturally?

In a game with Dragons, Megacorps, Cyberware, Nanoware, and Magic, it is the unrealistic exploding ammo you can not buy into?

I think you're confusing willingly suspension of disbelief with internal inconsistencies. Having the military use magic falls under the former while using exploding ammo under the current rules fall under the latter.

[BlueMax]

Haha, of course I won't quit applying "real world logic" to the game. That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. "In my game, the army uses ammo that blows up a lot, because they're using rpg logic" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

You end that with a ROFL?

A military using something less than safe because it has an advantage when killing the other guys?
<MASSIVE SARCASM TAG>
Why that would never happen.
</MASSIVE SARCASM TAG>

I ROFL at the thought that every military values their soldiers as anything more than a killing asset.
And thats just the real world.

I don't see the difference between handing a trooper a POS rifle that jams and a round that's problematic.

Add in Massive amounts of SINless, peak oil, food issues and blammo! the foot troopers value just plummeted.

BlueMax

[svenftw]

I'm not aware of any actual explosive tipped bullets in real life - such things have been attempted but if they're in use somewhere I've never heard about it. Even in SR, "explosive" more likely means "pressurized" or designed in some way to forcibly expand and fragment upon contact - like a Black Talon on steroids.

There ways ammunition designed in this fashion could come apart while in the process of being charged into the weapon, or perhaps the critical glitch means the ammo misfired, got ejected whole, but the tip caught on the ejection port and set it off. Those are both ways it could happen without damaging the weapon. In both cases it's possible that a trained operator would decrease those risks by knowing how to properly load and store magazines and by knowing how to properly maintain his weapon, reflecting how a higher skill level would decrease the chances of injury.

If that doesn't satisfy your desire for logical crunch to be applied to game mechanics I'm not sure what will.

Also, if explosive bullets existed in the real world, they would be flying off the shelves. I think your assumption that nobody would use them because they are unsafe couldn't be further from reality. Blackwater operators were known to test all manner of experimental and half-baked weapons and ammo while on deployment in other countries. African militia fighters will use guns made from duct tape and wood. Real life mercenaries use all manner of self-loaded ammunition that is dangerous. Also, given the relatively low damage the misfire causes and the assuming that military forces in the game equip their soldiers with (at the very least) armored jackets and helmets and (probably more common) full body armor, the possibility of an actual casualty is close enough to "none" to be considered "none".

In summary, I think your concerns about the realism of explosive ammo are unfounded.

[Ol' Scratch]

Particularly when someone just makes shit up and hence can't actually provide any examples. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)

Nobody uses explosive ammo in pistols and rifles because it doesn't actually do anything useful and because it's actively dangerous to the person shooting it.

Oh I'm sorry. I missed the imaginary footnote that said we were only talking about pistols. I'm sorry for not being psychic. Please forgive me, all-knowing one.

[svenftw]

There's this thing called Google. It's pretty helpful for discovering things like that.

Have you performed the same search you're asking him to do? I think you'll find that your assumption was off base to begin with, and he might have asked the question after coming up empty on a Google search.

[Ol' Scratch]

Yep, sure have.

To quote yourself: "Even in SR, 'explosive' more likely means 'pressurized' or designed in some way to forcibly expand and fragment upon contact - like a Black Talon on steroids."