Per the rules, explosive and EX-EX ammo sometimes blow up, destroying the weapon and damaging the user.

Who would use something like that? Certainly not any sort of professional outfit, like military, police or corpsec. I don't see a market for it in self defense either.

Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.

Leaving a side the obvious unrealism of most character types picking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?

There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something unreliable like that would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made ammo type?

Everything with a warhead has a chance of misfiring and premature detonation. That doesn't stop any military in the world from issuing rockets, missiles, mortars, grenades, and the like to their personnel. Look at flamethrowers. If a weapon is effective enough, the risks to the user will be deemed acceptable and the weapon will be pressed into service.

Then again, how many wired-acceleration cars has Toyota sold recently? This is what happens when corps get extraterritoriality and don't have to follow nonsensical "safety" regulations made by some stupid country's legislature.

It doesn't damage the weapon, it just damages the shooter. And only in the case of a critical glitch, which happens once in a blue moon if you're particularly unskilled and uncoordinated (low Agility), or a possessor of incredibly bad luck (such as with the Gremlins quality). This type of ammo exists in the real world, too, so it's not like it's unrealistic. And considering that it's a Forbidden type of ammo, it's perfectly reasonable to have it in the game as is.

Taking even a large risk for a mild boost is pretty common in the real world, too. Especially when you play at the games a professional criminal like a shadowrunner does.

In case you're not aware of it, all other ammo types in SR can be fired rather more safely. Explosive ammo has special rules that cause the firearm to explode in the user's hands on a critical glitch.

You're looking at an ammo type that will wound you and destroy your weapon at a frequency high enough for it to not pass any sort of military or law enforcement quality testing for example.

Extraterritoriality won't free them from liability. A corp with extraterritorial status can't just do whatever it wants outside of its own territory - maybe if they're willing to completely drop a country as a market they could get away with it, but being willing to do that just to sell some bad ammo seems a bit farfetched.

its just another instance of the rules being there for game balance rather than realism. even if the ammo was at high risk of cooking off, it shouldnt pose a substantial threat to the user.

militaries were reluctant to place bullpup weapons into service due to the risk of a malfunction or magazine-cookoff being right at the operators cheek. the counter was to redesign the weapons to reinforce the upper reciever and weaken the side, allowing catastrophic malfunctions to vent out the breach or out the magwell. Soldiers have survived such malfunctions with only minor injuries.

Castles designed their black powder magazines the same way. So did warships.

In the modern world, there is a stigma against caseless cartridges for similar reasons. but that stuff is ubiquitous in SR, and a magazine full of ex-ex isnt going to be any risker than that. so really, its just a game. and theyre just rules. they create a certain kind of balance, and you can either use them or not.

If you're going to start streaching everything to see how well it covers the full scope of its impact on society and how it fits into the economic landscape, you really should have started at the magic section.

all you need is a spirit or a sprite on your side with the appropriate power (guard and stability, respectively) and its perfectly safe.

Remember that for centuries armies used gunpowder weapons that could and did blow up in their user's faces. Yet they were used nevertheless.

Also it's hard to equal critical glitches with reliability. The ammo does in not way increase the CHANCE of a critical glitch, and that the concept of glitching is by itself arbitrary and based on a users skill with weapon as well as circumstantial modifiers that should have no impact on if the weapon malfunctions or not.

The way I see it explosive ammunition is just as reliable as normal ones, as long as they are loaded properly. I've never once seen explosive ammo blow up that way anyway.

What the hell kind of post is this? Of course we are aware of the ammo rules. Its not like we missed them. We just happen to use reason and common sense when reading them.

First of all its a game. In case you are not aware of it. The special rule is a game mechanic to balance out the obvious advantage of the ammo. So quit trying to apply real world logic in such a direct manner.




Talk about making assumptions. I did not read anything in the rules about ammo being quality tested. Heck I do not even see a point in the book that says the ammo WILL wound you or destroy the weapon. There is a small CHANCE that you can be wounded if you roll a crit glitch and are all out of edge. But that is so rare I have yet to see it happen.

And just for the record ammo does sometimes explode and cause injury in the real word. It is just a very rare occurrence.

It doesn't say that it damages the weapon, but how would it damage the shooter without ruining the weapon?

At low dice pools, critical glitches are far from uncommon. Even people with decent Agility and skill levels are going to be looking at low dice pools often enough. If you take a veteran soldier (agi 4 skill 4) with a smartlink, that's only 10 dice. A typical combat situation he's going to be in cover (-1) firing at someone in good cover (-4). That's 5 dice, and that's close to your optimal situation. Say there's some light smoke and medium range, and this highly trained well equipped soldier is rolling 2 dice and he has 20% of his ammo going off each time he pulls the trigger. Per the rules, there is no way something like that would be used by the military.

You say this ammo exists in the real world, what are you referring to?

I thought cover increased the defender's pool. That setup addresses the problem.

Because that is what the rule you are so hung up on says. How can you complain about a rule when you are adding things to it?

Besides weapons are made of material (like metal) that is slightly more durable than flesh.

Haha, of course I won't quit applying "real world logic" to the game. That's the funniest thing I've heard in a long time. "In my game, the army uses ammo that blows up a lot, because they're using rpg logic"

I think you're overestimating the frequency of critical glitches. Take an average Law Enforcement shooter. Give him a 3 agility and a 2 pistols along with a smartlink for a DP of 7. Check out the odds of getting at least 4 1s with no successes.

Once again. What the hell kind of post is this? Are you trying to be a dumbass or does it just come naturally?

In a game with Dragons, Megacorps, Cyberware, Nanoware, and Magic, it is the unrealistic exploding ammo you can not buy into?

Because that's what the rule you're bitching about says.


Gosh, you sure do like to throw on negative modifiers. Nevermind the numerous positive ones. Such as, oh I don't know, a smartlink, tracer rounds, recoil compensation, vision enhancement, aimed shots, and etc., or the fact that you're applying positive modifiers for the defender as a negative modifier for the attacker. Why stop at 2 dice? Why not just lower it to 1 or even 0? Or just wave your magic wand and say that all dice always come up as a 1 since we're making up bullshit scenarios anyway.

Say what you want, but critical glitches are insanely uncommon. Especially since there's this stat called "Edge." Which, you know, can be used to negate it any number of ways even on the unlikely chance it does come up.

I don't know why you mention it though. Everyone should be using Stick-n-Shock 24/7 anyway.


There's this thing called Google. It's pretty helpful for discovering things like that.

It probably doesn't help that many people seem to confuse explosive ammunition (which is really just frangible ammunition) with some sort of microgrenade.

Particularly when someone just makes shit up and hence can't actually provide any examples.

Nobody uses explosive ammo in pistols and rifles because it doesn't actually do anything useful and because it's actively dangerous to the person shooting it.

I think you're confusing willingly suspension of disbelief with internal inconsistencies. Having the military use magic falls under the former while using exploding ammo under the current rules fall under the latter.

You end that with a ROFL?

A military using something less than safe because it has an advantage when killing the other guys?
<MASSIVE SARCASM TAG>
Why that would never happen.
</MASSIVE SARCASM TAG>

I ROFL at the thought that every military values their soldiers as anything more than a killing asset.
And thats just the real world.

I don't see the difference between handing a trooper a POS rifle that jams and a round that's problematic.

Add in Massive amounts of SINless, peak oil, food issues and blammo! the foot troopers value just plummeted.

BlueMax

I'm not aware of any actual explosive tipped bullets in real life - such things have been attempted but if they're in use somewhere I've never heard about it. Even in SR, "explosive" more likely means "pressurized" or designed in some way to forcibly expand and fragment upon contact - like a Black Talon on steroids.

There ways ammunition designed in this fashion could come apart while in the process of being charged into the weapon, or perhaps the critical glitch means the ammo misfired, got ejected whole, but the tip caught on the ejection port and set it off. Those are both ways it could happen without damaging the weapon. In both cases it's possible that a trained operator would decrease those risks by knowing how to properly load and store magazines and by knowing how to properly maintain his weapon, reflecting how a higher skill level would decrease the chances of injury.

If that doesn't satisfy your desire for logical crunch to be applied to game mechanics I'm not sure what will.

Also, if explosive bullets existed in the real world, they would be flying off the shelves. I think your assumption that nobody would use them because they are unsafe couldn't be further from reality. Blackwater operators were known to test all manner of experimental and half-baked weapons and ammo while on deployment in other countries. African militia fighters will use guns made from duct tape and wood. Real life mercenaries use all manner of self-loaded ammunition that is dangerous. Also, given the relatively low damage the misfire causes and the assuming that military forces in the game equip their soldiers with (at the very least) armored jackets and helmets and (probably more common) full body armor, the possibility of an actual casualty is close enough to "none" to be considered "none".

In summary, I think your concerns about the realism of explosive ammo are unfounded.

Oh I'm sorry. I missed the imaginary footnote that said we were only talking about pistols. I'm sorry for not being psychic. Please forgive me, all-knowing one.

Have you performed the same search you're asking him to do? I think you'll find that your assumption was off base to begin with, and he might have asked the question after coming up empty on a Google search.

Yep, sure have.

To quote yourself: "Even in SR, 'explosive' more likely means 'pressurized' or designed in some way to forcibly expand and fragment upon contact - like a Black Talon on steroids."

This is what I was saying as well. "Explosive" ammo is highly unlikely to contain actual explosives inside the tip, they are more likely going to be designed to fly apart in a terribly efficient fashion upon penetration. Such a round wouldn't make your gun explode if it misfired, it would just make a mess and (possibly) injure the operator - a condition offered neatly by the RAW.

I apologize, I thought you were saying that bullets that contain actual explosives inside of them existed.

Those are perfectly normal modifiers, both parties in cover and at medium range is perfectly common - the only non-standard thing was the smoke, but those -2 could come from a host of other sources. I included a smartlink, he didn't have tracer rounds, RC and vision enhancements doesn't give positive modifiers so that wouldn't help.

He could be using aimed shots, there could be a host of other negative modifiers that lowered the dice pool even lower. There could be lots of different scenarios with different modifiers, but the point is that facing 8 points of negative modifiers is hardly uncommon, I don't see why you call that a "bullshit scenario".

This is what my rulebook says under ranged attack modifiers, good cover:

Target Has Good Cover
If at least 50% of the target’s form is obscured by intervening
terrain. A –4 dice pool modifi er applies. Th is modifi er can
also apply to prone targets at least 20 meters away.

Where do you get this applying as a plus to the defender?




Critical glitches are only uncommon if you forget to add proper modifiers. If you do add common modifiers, you're going to be going through your Edge in no time, just avoiding misfires.




My actual army experience tells me that there's no ammunition in use that blows up and harms the user on a regular basis. I just tried googling it, and I couldn't find anything there either. What sort of ammunition are you thinking of?

I thought only PCs had edge? So, if someone critically glitches, then they just critically glitched -- no if's, and's, or but's about it. I agree. This stuff sounds incredibly dangerous. I would never issue it to soldiers/guards -- the cost of the training alone to get one of my soldiers/guards up to snuff is enough that I can't risk their life on something like that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Explosiv...cing_Ammunition

Umm they do exist. As the a fore mentioned google search reveals.

That is a cannon round, which in SR has a blast radius and which is not what we are discussing in this thread.

1) PCs only have Edge when resolving conflicts for dramatic reasons. There's nothing special about PCs in 'the real world' of the setting. They're not the only ones who can call upon it.
2) I'm pretty sure a basic wound (base damage, not staged in any way whatsoever, and all your armor is fully effective against it) isn't going to kill anyone unless they're using some crazy kind of weapon. And on the rare chance that a critical glitch does somehow occur (which no matter who or what is saying it, is incredibly rare), they'd likely pull out and recover from it instead of just conitnue firing like an idiot.

You should read the rules on edge.

And where the happy hell in the book does it say that EX-ammo is used in military. I thought it was on a list of ammo that is available to Shadowrunners for use. Maybe they are willing to take a few more risks than the military. I mean the ammo is forbidden. Perhaps outlawed because it was deemed too dangerous.

Read before you talk out your ass.

Typical of a modern HEIAP shell is the Raufoss Mk 211 .50 BMG round designed for weapons such as heavy machine guns and anti-materiel rifles.

They're widely used in .50 calibre weapons. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raufoss_Mk_211. Global security even has it listed as the most popular round for US military snipers.

You're using the wrong rulebook. SR4A, p160; cover is +2/+4 to defense.

Anyway, critical glitches are vanishingly rare. If they're not, you shouldn't be trying it.

Personal attacks are against the ToS

There, fixed it for you.

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

Yeah, I assume they changed that specifically to avoid making critical glitches really common just for firing into cover.

Fair enough, but I wouldn't consider myself "talking out of my ass" and I would advise you to slow your roll.

Regardless, a rifle firing that round is going to be a far cry from a weapon anybody carries into a firefight. It's going to be a specialized application in a limited and specialized role. It's still not what we're talking about in this thread when we discuss the EX ammo in SR, so my ass talking was not very far from accurate.

Happens more than 50% of the time if you get your dicepool down to 2. Which doesn't mean you are unskilled or clumsy; you could just be shooting at a long range target with poor visibility, while wounded. Funny how the gun is more likely to blow up because the target is further away....
Glitch rules are kinda messed up like that. Granted, when knocked down to a 2 dicepool, you probably should find something better to do that wasting time on an wild shooting....

Or a smartgun with a machine sprite in it!

Ex-Ex in a Warhawk(which can be smartlinked very cheaply) hits very, very hard at 6P/ap-3

*ahem*





(edited for improved clarity)

If you find it's a problem, the solution is to houserule the random chance differently. But I never shoot anyone with 2 dice. I feel like the troopers would simply think, 'nope, I'm too hurt/far away for this shot'. *shrug*

To be quite honest Your rolling 10 dice as sated above 4skill 4 stat + smart-link. Now -6 is not being able to see at all. From cover is a -1 if some on is in cover they get to have +4 on there defiance roll not -4 on your attack. However due to the logic of the rules you notgoign to get mtoe that -6 form perception based modifiers as that unable to see. and assuming your going going full-auto -8 is about the max you can hit with out being shot to pices or such. witch means total wost case sinario is if your still going to try and shoot. Rolling 2 dice. Yes then a critical gliche is quite likely but Then why are you shooting when you cant see form and when inhibited in some other ways any PC I'm paying or played with would try and even the odds some how.

Fair enough. Sorry. Bad day. Maybe I should not log onto Dumpshock when my BS limit has already been met for the day?

Wow, that's so badly written and internally contradictory that it's a poster child for why you can't trust wiki for anything serious.

Uh, no.

I play in a game that has negative and positive modifiers, and people who don't regularly pull the trigger randomly when they have no shot in hell of making the shot to begin with.


Uh, no. You do know a critical glitch only occurs when 1) one-half or more of your dice show up as a 1 and 2) you fail the test, yes? That means you have to roll a 1 on one die and NOT a 5 or 6 on the other. That's not a 50-50 crap shoot whatsoever, even on the painfully rare occasion that you're bothering to pull the trigger when your chances are that abysmal that you'll get even one hit that'll matter. And it still ignores Edge to boot.

Otherwise, yes, it is weird how glitches have a higher chance of occurring due to weird modifiers like that. No argument there.

that's when you just use suppressive fire, of course.