Nobody "shoots to wound". They are shooting you to make you stop doing something. When you stop doing that they will generally stop shooting. Your survival is immaterial.
Deadly force is "deadly force", your use of deadly force is only authorized under certain limited circumstances under which the death or permanent disability of the target is considered acceptable.
QUOTE (kzt @ Apr 29 2010, 08:36 PM) 
Nobody "shoots to wound". They are shooting you to make you stop doing something. When you stop doing that they will generally stop shooting. Your survival is immaterial.
Yeah, "Shooting to wound" is generally at odds against actual firearms training... you shoot to stop a particular action from occurring...
Keep the Faith
Granted, but if this wasn't a dystopia, there'd be protests about the inhumane EX rounds. ^_^
QUOTE (Falanin @ Apr 29 2010, 09:33 PM)
There might be a bit of PR backlash as well, since "shooting to wound" with explosive ammo is something of an oxymoron.
Who shoots to wound? Not modern day police. If they shoot, they're... well, they aren't going for a kill over a wound per say, but they will go for the shot that has the highest chance of taking the person down (which is center mass, which can easily be deadly), and they will be firing multiple shots (usually in taps of two or three, depending on training) They would likely prefer that you survive the experience, but they would even more prefer to not be shot, and the multiple shots (especially if multiple cops are involved) means a fairly high chance of death when being shot at by cops. And since EX rounds have a higher chance of taking a person down than regular rounds, they wouldn't shy away from EX rounds.
Besides, they're shooting goblinoids. 
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Apr 29 2010, 11:54 PM)
Besides, they're shooting goblinoids.
QFT.
"Oh my god, there's a Troll go-gang coming right this. Quick, change to EX-EX clips".
Besides, in shadowrun, the "shoot to wound" thing would use SnS, Gel ammo or DMSO. Shooting to wound someone with a real bullet is an euphemism...
I figure that, just like IRL, all the people who make a living possibly having to shoot other people aim center of mass... and all the folks who make a living turning whatever recent shooting or other crime into high-profit news will talk about how you can't shoot to wound with this type of ammo. "Shooting to wound" may be bullshit, but it doesn't mean it's not bullshit people talk about.
A side thought on that topic... most of the people who might actually "shoot to wound" strike me as being criminals out to make a point... shooting a competitor in the kneecap, that kind of thing.
A side thought on that topic... most of the people who might actually "shoot to wound" strike me as being criminals out to make a point... shooting a competitor in the kneecap, that kind of thing.
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Apr 23 2010, 04:50 PM)
Per the rules, explosive and EX-EX ammo sometimes blow up, destroying the weapon and damaging the user.
Who would use something like that? Certainly not any sort of professional outfit, like military, police or corpsec. I don't see a market for it in self defense either.
Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.
Leaving a side the obvious unrealism of most character types picking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?
There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something unreliable like that would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made ammo type?
Who would use something like that? Certainly not any sort of professional outfit, like military, police or corpsec. I don't see a market for it in self defense either.
Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.
Leaving a side the obvious unrealism of most character types picking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?
There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something unreliable like that would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made ammo type?
QUOTE
Who would use tobacco products? Who would make them?
Per commonly known statistics, pipes, cigarettes, and chewing tobacco sometimes give you cancer, destroying the user.
Who would use something like that? Certainly no one without a death wish, like folks in the military, police, or corpsec. I don't see a market for them in civilian demographics, either.
Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.
Leaving aside the obvious unrealism of most character types smoking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?
There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something carcinogenic like this would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made recreational drug?
Per commonly known statistics, pipes, cigarettes, and chewing tobacco sometimes give you cancer, destroying the user.
Who would use something like that? Certainly no one without a death wish, like folks in the military, police, or corpsec. I don't see a market for them in civilian demographics, either.
Maybe, maybe, some sort of psycho gang banger, trying to show how death defying he is or something.
Leaving aside the obvious unrealism of most character types smoking something like this, why would something like this exist in the game world to begin with?
There's practically no market for it, and even if you could get someone to buy it, the obvious liability issues with selling something carcinogenic like this would mean no company would sell or manufacture something like it. Is it some sort of home made recreational drug?
See how funny that works? And heck, EX and explosive rounds have a tangible, quantifiable, game-world effect (pretty vastly increased damage against whoever you're shooting at and trying to kill). Cigarettes have no such game effect. They don't give you a bonus to damage levels with firearm attacks, and they give you cancer. Who would ever buy such a thing?!
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 30 2010, 01:31 AM)
See how funny that works? And heck, EX and explosive rounds have a tangible, quantifiable, game-world effect (pretty vastly increased damage against whoever you're shooting at and trying to kill). Cigarettes have no such game effect. They don't give you a bonus to damage levels with firearm attacks, and they give you cancer. Who would ever buy such a thing?!
Nice, can't believe no one drew that comparison yet. I tried with driving, but smoking is such a better comparison.
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 29 2010, 06:17 PM)
You have no idea how much I know about firearms, friend. You're the one saying that the projectile is larger than the barrel through which it is fired. At the time, you weren't referring to the methods by which calibers and barrels are measured and designated, but rather you were discussing the physics of how a firearm works, and why an explosion is required to move a bullet down a barrel.
A nonsensical statement like that doesn't tell anyone that I'm the one without firearm knowledge, okay? It's true that a misfire isn't going to make a bullet just idly tumble out the end of the barrel, but the reason you give -- that the bore is smaller than the bullet -- is ridiculous. If the barrel is smaller than the bullet, the bullet's not going any where any time soon.
A nonsensical statement like that doesn't tell anyone that I'm the one without firearm knowledge, okay? It's true that a misfire isn't going to make a bullet just idly tumble out the end of the barrel, but the reason you give -- that the bore is smaller than the bullet -- is ridiculous. If the barrel is smaller than the bullet, the bullet's not going any where any time soon.
Maybe you know a lot about firearms, but you're wrong about this. I even provided you with solid documentation - even if you did misunderstand it and thought it was just designation, you could have researched it a bit yourself.
Here's another link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaging#Firearms_and_ammunition
Most firearm bullets are made slightly larger than the inside diameter of the barrel, so that they are swaged to engage the rifling and form a tight seal upon firing
You might think it is nonsensical and ridiculous - but none the less, it is true.
Yeah, it's the reason bullets have softer material like lead or copper on the outside. It needs to be able to deform.
Heck, even artillery ammo has bands of lead around the outside of each round.
Try casting bullets out of solid steel with no coating. See how many you can fire before you get a severe jam.
-karma
Heck, even artillery ammo has bands of lead around the outside of each round.
Try casting bullets out of solid steel with no coating. See how many you can fire before you get a severe jam.
-karma
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Apr 30 2010, 05:45 AM)
Maybe you know a lot about firearms, but you're wrong about this. I even provided you with solid documentation - even if you did misunderstand it and thought it was just designation, you could have researched it a bit yourself.
Here's another link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaging#Firearms_and_ammunition
Most firearm bullets are made slightly larger than the inside diameter of the barrel, so that they are swaged to engage the rifling and form a tight seal upon firing
You might think it is nonsensical and ridiculous - but none the less, it is true.
Here's another link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaging#Firearms_and_ammunition
Most firearm bullets are made slightly larger than the inside diameter of the barrel, so that they are swaged to engage the rifling and form a tight seal upon firing
You might think it is nonsensical and ridiculous - but none the less, it is true.
Actually, the bullets are crafted to the Grooves in the bore, not the Lands... as such, the actual bore diameter is equal to the Grooves, not the Lands... the lands are there to provide stability to the round when fired (your use of the term Swaging)... the truth is that the bullet is not bigger than the bore of the rifle... One of the reasons that bullet material is soft is to conform to the lands in the barrel...
However, there are many guns that I have fired over the years where the lands were so worn that you could not actually discern them... in those cases, the bullet did not just "Fall out" of the barrel, and it still fired perfectly well... stability sufferred a bit, and the gun was less accurate than a modern gun with evident Lands and Grovves, but it was still deadly to functional ranges... Hell, I even have a hunting rifle from the 1800's that is like this...
Anyways...
Keep the Faith
Also, in response to Smokeskin, I never said the bullet fell out of the barrel and somehow detonated. I said they shot themselves in the foot.
Critical glitch, they shoot themselves by accident. Whoops.
Critical glitch, they shoot themselves by accident. Whoops.
QUOTE (Harbin @ Apr 30 2010, 04:03 PM)
Also, in response to Smokeskin, I never said the bullet fell out of the barrel and somehow detonated. I said they shot themselves in the foot.
Critical glitch, they shoot themselves by accident. Whoops.
Critical glitch, they shoot themselves by accident. Whoops.
Indeed... My Apologies... must have gotten confuded there a bit...
Agree with the shooting yourself bit, though... it happens all the time in the real world...
Keep the Faith
QUOTE (Harbin @ May 1 2010, 12:03 AM)
Also, in response to Smokeskin, I never said the bullet fell out of the barrel and somehow detonated.
QUOTE (Harbin @ Apr 27 2010, 05:19 PM)
Perhaps the propellant itself misfires, causing the bullet to drop out and explode at their feet.
???
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