Area Damage: Avoidable, or Only Soakable?, n00bz question, please forgive Options

[Nifft]

So, the spell Fireball and the object Grenade: how do they work?

Can one avoid their area damage with a Reaction check before soaking damage, or does one only soak the damage?

Thanks, -- N

[tagz]

As they are both targeted actions and not Direct Combat spells, yes, they should be able to roll their Defense pool to avoid it. Anyone who can't avoid it will soak.

Additionally, unless the user changed it ahead of time, a grenade is set to explode on the next initiative pass after a person threw it, right after their place in the order (whether or not the character themselves have a pass to act). This means everyone who has an initiative pass to act in between those two times has a chance to just run away from it.

[Nifft]

As they are both targeted actions and not Direct Combat spells, yes, they should be able to roll their Defense pool to avoid it. Anyone who can't avoid it will soak.

Awesome, we did that right. Thanks.

Additionally, unless the user changed it ahead of time, a grenade is set to explode on the next initiative pass after a person threw it, right after their place in the order (whether or not the character themselves have a pass to act). This means everyone who has an initiative pass to act in between those two times has a chance to just run away from it.

If the grenade user fires it via a launcher with an airburst link, then there's no delay, right?

[DWC]

Grenades fired from a launcher with an airburst link explode in the Action Phase they were launched in.

[Falconer]

As far as the spells go. They work differently than the grenade... they are an opposed attack roll. It is literally how many hits did you get on the spell (3 for example)... oh he rolled 4 on reaction (+counterspelling)... you completely missed. Then roll soak on the DV+net hits if it hits. You can 'miss' with them even if something is in the center of the blast zone.


In the case of a grenade, it's simply how far away from the character does it land then calculate effects accordingly. If you get people trying to toss 2 nades per pass. Just remind them that drawing a grenade and 'pulling the pin' is a simple action (ready weapon), before throw weapon (simple). Grenades are true to the old saying... close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. The only question is where they land, anyone close enough to this point will roll to soak that damage, unlike a spell which can still miss outright.



Airburst is like firing grenades w/ a fast & precise timer. Airburst also requires a smartgun (p322, 'smartgun accessory'). (smartgun already has the rangefinders and ballistics calculations and the like). What it does is calculate the trajectory then put the round on a timer, after 20ms of flight explode close to the target.

Generally if you're trying to hit a specific person w/ the blast, it's an opposed test. And they go off in the round fired.

Thrown grenades can be set to command, timer (1pass, or longer it's programmable, default is 1), or even contact. (they explode when they hit something when thrown... if players try and abuse that one too much, there's a lot of things they can 'bump' into if you take my meaning).


But as a GM you have some latitude... because technically it's perfectly valid to attack the furniture which just happens to be terrorizing you and catch the others in the blast zone accidentally. Situation willing, you should probably give everyone aware in the blast zone a reaction test to treat their distance from the blast as +1m/hit. (he flinched behind the desk reducing the effect of the blast, this pud used this other pud for cover... doesn't matter).

Also be aware the scatter rules in SR4a are absolutely brutal now.

[D2F]

In our group, grenades are not an opposed roll. The attacker designates a point of impact, rolls his success test and uses hits to reduce the scatter. If any viable target is still within the radius when the grenade goes off, they take the appropriate amount of damage (base damage-range modifier) and resist normaly.
We've always been playing it like that and I honestly thought that's how it worked anyway. Well, at least that's how it should work, so we continue using it this way.

[Ol' Scratch]

So if people see a grenade skittering along the ground, they're just going to stand there and wait for it to detonate? That's how it should work?

[D2F]

So if people see a grenade skittering along the ground, they're just going to stand there and wait for it to detonate? That's how it should work?

They have until it detonates to do something about it.

[Falconer]

If it's contact fused, or airburst... it's not skittering around.

For all the rest, they get one pass to get the hell out of Dodge City.

Though that's one wierdness in the rules... it goes off in the next pass... If you have a runner w/ 1 pass, and a mook w/ 1 pass... that means even a thrown grenade goes off in the 2nd pass (even though the players don't have a 2nd pass). So yeah it's possible especially in the 3rd pass or so, that you get people flatfooted and caught by a blast they would have been able to run away from had they still had actions.


(one reason I'm fond of always splitting movement by 4, and having people move partial every pass rather than you only get 1 pass... and allowing people to take their 1IP worth of action on any pass, and not just the first one).

[D2F]

Though that's one wierdness in the rules... it goes off in the next pass... If you have a runner w/ 1 pass, and a mook w/ 1 pass... that means even a thrown grenade goes off in the 2nd pass (even though the players don't have a 2nd pass). So yeah it's possible especially in the 3rd pass or so, that you get people flatfooted and caught by a blast they would have been able to run away from had they still had actions.

That's why we take "next pass" quite literal and refer to the next available pass. If all participants have only 1 pass, it goes off on the next available one of the thrower. I prefer that rule over "at the end of the combat round" anyway.

[DWC]

No, they'll probably move on their turn, before the grenade goes off. If they're out of Initiative Passes, they'll bug their eyes out like Rodney Dangerfield and get blown the fuck up. If you're throwing a grenade to hit a specific person, I can see giving them a defensive test, but the more common application of grenades is still going to be "I throw a grenade over the SUV that the four Triad goons are hiding behind", which means one of them gets to make defense test, but who gets to determine which one, and what happens to all the other assholes who happened to be standing near the guy who was chosen by The Hand of God to save them from hot, spinning, metallic death.

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to WAR! is to see how the use of grenades against multiple opponents and the use of autofire with scattering weapons get codified.

[Warlordtheft]

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to WAR! is to see how the use of grenades against multiple opponents and the use of autofire with scattering weapons get codified.

MK-19 + Drone = massive chunky salsa!!!


Woot!

[Dumori]

Grenades fired from a launcher with an airburst link explode in the Action Phase they were launched in.

Same goes with those fired from a launcher with out the airbust link.

[DWC]

Same goes with those fired from a launcher with out the airbust link.

The instant detonation is specifically a property of the Airburst Link. Nothing in the rules for grenade launchers states that they do not have the same detonation delay if they do not have an airburst link.

[Dumori]

It sates the explode on impact.

[DWC]

It sates the explode on impact.

Where? I've read the section on grenades six times in the last ten minutes, along with everything in Arsenal referencing grenades and the only thing I can find is the part about launched grenades not arming if they strike something before traveling 5 meters.

Edit: Interesting. The rules contradict themselves with a single line in the Gear section describing minigrenades, which state that they explode on impact once they've traveled 5 meters.

[Red-ROM]

heres another thing I have trouble with in the area effect realm. The Triad guy inside the van. Is he at the exact same risk as the guy standing directly over the grenade? And a guy in the stuffer shack gets the protection of the wall?

In game terms. Vehicles add their armor to the character when bullets are flying, but when an area effect goes off. the Player doesn't get such protection. Conversely, any other barrier soaks the damage until its breeched. Please somebody tell me I'm wrong!!

[Banaticus]

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to WAR! is to see how the use of grenades against multiple opponents and the use of autofire with scattering weapons get codified.

To what? I see a book called Mob War! but it was published in 2002.

In game terms. Vehicles add their armor to the character when bullets are flying, but when an area effect goes off. the Player doesn't get such protection.

Why wouldn't they?

[Red-ROM]

Why wouldn't they?

SR4a p.171 Damage and passengers:

IN the case of ramming, full-auto, and area-effect attacks, both passengers and vehicles resist the damage equally.

[Falconer]

That's why we take "next pass" quite literal and refer to the next available pass. If all participants have only 1 pass, it goes off on the next available one of the thrower. I prefer that rule over "at the end of the combat round" anyway.

No I don't buy that...

Then you arbitrarily change the fuse length based on character speed. Rather than all grenades being set the same...

Does this mean that if the 4IP street sam tosses it goes on his next pass a second later. While if the street punk tosses it it waits a whole 3s combat turn.


But anyhow, like I said, I like using a house rule where everyone aware in the blast zone gets a reaction test to make the explosion act as if it were farther away than it was. For the vast majority it's unlikely to move them out of the blast radius, but it will help soak an extra few points of damage by reducing the damage before soak. (I consider it, ducking behind a desk, behind your teammate, turning your armor more effectively to the blast... doesn't matter what exactly, just mechanically it works well).



Vehicles & explosives damage:
Yes passengers and vehicle need to resist seperately... but people behind the barrier (vehicle armor) will still get the extra protection. That rule mostly reflects the attack is unfocused and might hit any and all... generally people in a vehicle are going to have double or triple their normal armor and resist most of us, or take a point or two of stun at most.

[D2F]

SR4a p.171 Damage and passengers:

IN the case of ramming, full-auto, and area-effect attacks, both passengers and vehicles resist the damage equally.

In my opinion, that just means they both resist the same damage. I don't read that they no longer get the benefit of the chassis out of it.

[Yerameyahu]

Ditto.

[Shinobi Killfist]

My understanding is that the official rule is the person you aim at with your grenade gets to dodge, everyone else in the AoE stands around like an idiot. Which is why people came up with the brilliant idea of aiming at a chair or other object that wont dodge. I believe it is the same for indirect AoE spells. I think that is a pile of stupid and ignore it, everyone in the AoE should get a reaction test to reduce damage, though I also think grenades should still scale up in damage. I do not remember if 4A changed this or not, maybe whatever potential forthcoming book will enlighten us or change the rule.

[Draco18s]

So if people see a grenade skittering along the ground, they're just going to stand there and wait for it to detonate? That's how it should work?

By raw the guy nearest the grenade gets a chance to kick it.

Or something.

But only the first guy, even if the direction he kicks it adds more people to the blast zone, even if it would be to his advantage to kick it another way. AND he doesn't need to be anywhere near the grenade at the time.

[Prime Mover]

My players routinely make use of wireless grenades. Activated and subscribed then tossed and set off via commlink. No fear of hacking as rarely more then a round or two goes by unless setting up an ambush. Free action to set it off, guy goes to kick it or toss it back and BOOM!

Edit: On the lines of chunky salsa effect, what happens when two guys toss several wireless activated stun grenades into the small room with the Wendigo?

A short finally.