Carbines and PDWs? |
Carbines and PDWs? |
Apr 25 2010, 07:46 AM
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#1
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 368 Joined: 18-April 10 From: Boulder, PCC Sector, Denver Member No.: 18,468 |
Something that really annoys me about SR4 is that carbines and PDWs are lumped in with SMGs. PDWs, maybe...but carbines?! While it's true that most carbines and PDW have shorter ranges than an assault rifle, these ranges are generally longer than SMGs, and most carbines shoot full-sized assault rifle rounds. I'm also not entirely certain, but I'm pretty sure that SR4 rules let you wield an SMG with one hand, whereas ARs would of course require two (unless you're a troll or heavily cybered).
What do people think about creating the "Carbine" category of weapon, using Automatics, with ranges ~1/2-2/3 of AR range, firing 6P or 7P rounds? Representative members would be the AK97 Carbine, the Praetor, etc. |
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Apr 25 2010, 08:30 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 7-July 08 From: Germany Member No.: 16,124 |
Why not? The SR4A core book already lists "Carbines" as a specialization of the Automatics skill. Which seems quite nonsensical if there's no corresponding weapons category.
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Apr 25 2010, 11:14 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 15-April 10 From: AGS Member No.: 18,455 |
The problem concerning the PDWs I see is that there are two different kinds:
All depends on how relaistic/complicated you want to play it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Apr 25 2010, 11:22 AM
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#4
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,748 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Good ol' Germany Member No.: 7,015 |
Carbine ?
a Carbine is (for Me) simply an Assault Rifle with short Barrell and folding stock (in SR Terms) instead of a rigid stock thats all with a simple dance Medicineman |
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Apr 25 2010, 11:27 AM
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#5
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
The differences in stats between an SMG and an Assault Rifle are already marginal. An in-between category definitely isn't necessary. If you feel one is closer to an Assault Rifle, put it in the AR list. Otherwise, put it on the SMG list. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.
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Apr 25 2010, 04:11 PM
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#6
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
That's the real point: there's basically no room to squeeze them in.
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Apr 25 2010, 08:21 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 15-April 10 From: AGS Member No.: 18,455 |
Then one could file the aforementiond PDWs, that use special ammunition, as SMGs, give them 200m max range and rule that regular ammunition for those does not exist but that they use special ammunition which is harder to get (9R), more expensive (45 NuYen per 10 rounds) and has a -2 AP modifier (all halfway between regular ammo and APDS as not to render the latter useless for those PDWs).
What do you think? As for the carbines: In my mind they are either SMGs with the damage of Assault Rifles or Assault Rifles with the ranges of SMGs. Either way would work imho (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Apr 25 2010, 08:23 PM
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#8
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
I feel like a -1 AP is more like it (cf. Assault Rifles), but yeah, you can always custom-rule a weapon. I mean, the Defiance T-250 sawed off has wholly different stats.
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Apr 25 2010, 08:40 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 15-April 10 From: AGS Member No.: 18,455 |
As I see it the AP from Assault Rifles is built in by design of the weapon and works in addition to any ammunition you use, whereas the AP on the PDWs is only from the special ammunition used, that's why I chose that way to describe it. It only has that AP as long as you use that special ammunition.
Giving the weapon itself the AP would be overpowered in the case of PDWs imho. |
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Apr 25 2010, 08:44 PM
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#10
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
As for the carbines: In my mind they are either SMGs with the damage of Assault Rifles or Assault Rifles with the ranges of SMGs. Either way would work imho (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) That's what the Extended/Reduced Barrel options can help simulate. Again, no need to make a whole new category for such a minute niche. |
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Apr 25 2010, 08:49 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 7-July 08 From: Germany Member No.: 16,124 |
On second thought, I'd also model carbines as assault rifles with the barrel reduction mod just for simplicity's sake.
Still makes me wonder why carbines are listed as a separate specialization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) If I really aimed for more "realism", I'd use weapon designs instead of the current categories as specializations. E.g. a present-day U.S. soldier would have the automatics skill with a specialization "AR15", which would apply to the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, but also the 9mm Colt SMG variant. However I'm not sure whether the added "realism" is worth the hassle. |
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Apr 25 2010, 08:57 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 15-April 10 From: AGS Member No.: 18,455 |
---snip--- Still makes me wonder why carbines are listed as a separate specialization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif) ---snip--- They still are different from both SMGs and Assault Rifles. If you are used to SMGs they feel strange because of the different caliber/stats of the rounds, if you are used to Assault Rifles they feel strange because of less accuracy and less AP. In Addition it's bigger than the average SMG and smaller than the average Assault Rifle. I think that would justify a specialisation for carbines even if they do not have their own category. |
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Apr 25 2010, 09:16 PM
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#13
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Revolvers have a separate specialization, too, even though it's not an actual weapon category. The Heavy Pistols specialization covers the Ruger Warhawk (revolver) and even the Remington Roomsweeper (shotgun). Specializations aren't solely limited to metagame categories.
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Apr 25 2010, 09:25 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 31-July 06 From: Denmark Member No.: 8,995 |
Carbines are ARs with reduced barrel, as said above.
PDWs are machine pistols or SMGs with APDS. |
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Apr 25 2010, 09:55 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
The differences in stats between an SMG and an Assault Rifle are already marginal. Even the real differences are not exactly clear, creating another group in the fuzzy area between SMGs and assault rifles wouldn't help with that... But does it even matter? Weapon specializations don't depend on table names |
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Apr 25 2010, 09:56 PM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 368 Joined: 18-April 10 From: Boulder, PCC Sector, Denver Member No.: 18,468 |
Where can I find the Barrel Reduction/Extension mod?
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Apr 26 2010, 05:16 AM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,556 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 98 |
Arsenal, page 150, "Barrel Extension/Reduction"
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Apr 26 2010, 06:48 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 510 Joined: 19-May 06 From: Southern CA Member No.: 8,574 |
Isn't a carbine generally more accurate than an assault rifle (less recoil)?
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Apr 26 2010, 07:51 AM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 15-September 08 From: Florida Member No.: 16,346 |
Isn't a carbine generally more accurate than an assault rifle (less recoil)? Quite the opposite, actually. A carbine and an AR using the same ammo type will have roughly the same recoil generated by the round; the carbine, due to having less material and therefore less weight fighting the recoil, will buck a little more than normal. Due to the shorter barrel length, the carbine will also have a slightly reduced max range (though not necessarily max effective range). |
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Apr 26 2010, 08:48 AM
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#20
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Target Group: New Member Probation Posts: 8 Joined: 23-April 10 Member No.: 18,493 |
Let's face it. There are no carbines in SR4... yeah, some guns have "carbine" in their name or discribtion, but such thing as a carbine does not exist in SR...
This post has been edited by sir stenz: Apr 26 2010, 08:49 AM |
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Apr 26 2010, 03:25 PM
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#21
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Honestly, isn't the problem that 'carbines' in SR are classed as SMGs? A carbine is very clearly an AR, with maybe integral Barrel Reduction and a folding/telescoping/retractible/detachable stock. So, AR range, reduced a little (still more than SMG), AR damage, AR skill specialization…
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Apr 26 2010, 03:29 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Nah, the problem is just how weapons are handled in the game, period. Pretty much everything is a completely arbitrary arrangement that rarely make any real sense. Why does a SA/BF Machine Pistol require a completely different skill than a SA/BF Light Pistol, for instance? You can't even "default" to the other skill. It's an all-or-nothing proposition. It's either Agility + Automatics/Pistols or just Agility - 1. No room in between without buying two unrelated skills.
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Apr 26 2010, 03:39 PM
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#23
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Great Dragon Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,082 Joined: 3-October 09 From: Kohle, Stahl und Bier Member No.: 17,709 |
Honestly, isn't the problem that 'carbines' in SR are classed as SMGs? Logically most carbines would belong into the AR section. But as Doc Funkenstein said, weapon categories and stats don't exactly follow real world mechanics. A dead shot with an assault rifle wouldn't be able to use any of his skills with a civillian (semi-automatic) variant, while everybody who can shoot an MG can handle an ATGM just as well. PS: Then again, by not making sense SR rules perfectly mimic real life rules/laws for firearms (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Apr 26 2010, 03:47 PM
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#24
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Advocatus Diaboli Group: Members Posts: 13,994 Joined: 20-November 07 From: USA Member No.: 14,282 |
Dr. Funkenstein: Okay, yes, that's the *real* problem. I just meant for this rules question. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
That said, there are 'machine pistols' that are just like pistols (Glock G18, I think?) and there are those that are more like small SMGs (Mini-Uzi?I dunno). I think SR uses a size-category system specifically because the terms are so vague. So, the G18 is a BF/FA pistol in SR, and the Mini-Uzi is a Machine Pistol, and the bigger Uzi is an SMG. For most things, it works /okay/, except for the edge cases, but the Firearms skills are exactly where they run into (lots of) trouble. |
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Apr 26 2010, 04:53 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 368 Joined: 18-April 10 From: Boulder, PCC Sector, Denver Member No.: 18,468 |
This also begs the question of why longarms and assault rifles have no overlap.
Maybe break the skills up into Short Arms and Long Arms, by firing type (SS, SA, BF). Specializations would still be by weapon, though... That actually sounds pretty cool. |
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