Something that really annoys me about SR4 is that carbines and PDWs are lumped in with SMGs. PDWs, maybe...but carbines?! While it's true that most carbines and PDW have shorter ranges than an assault rifle, these ranges are generally longer than SMGs, and most carbines shoot full-sized assault rifle rounds. I'm also not entirely certain, but I'm pretty sure that SR4 rules let you wield an SMG with one hand, whereas ARs would of course require two (unless you're a troll or heavily cybered).

What do people think about creating the "Carbine" category of weapon, using Automatics, with ranges ~1/2-2/3 of AR range, firing 6P or 7P rounds? Representative members would be the AK97 Carbine, the Praetor, etc.

Why not? The SR4A core book already lists "Carbines" as a specialization of the Automatics skill. Which seems quite nonsensical if there's no corresponding weapons category.

The problem concerning the PDWs I see is that there are two different kinds:

• The ones that are just scaled down SMGs that still fire 9x19mm Parabellum like the Russian "KBP Instrument Design Bureau PP-2000" or the Austrian "Brügger & Thomet MP9 (ex Steyr TMP)". I think these fit well into the SMG category, albeit they lose a little accuracy due to the shorter barrel.
• The ones that use specially developed ammunition that is optimized for high armor penetration, high muzzle velocity and low recoil like the 4.6x30mm cartridges of the German "Heckler & Koch MP7" or the 5.7x28mm cartridges of the Belgian "FN Herstal P90". These might deserve their own category (same or slightly less damage, more AP, more range than SMGs imho).

All depends on how relaistic/complicated you want to play it

Carbine ?
a Carbine is (for Me) simply an Assault Rifle with short Barrell and folding stock (in SR Terms) instead of a rigid stock
thats all

with a simple dance
Medicineman

The differences in stats between an SMG and an Assault Rifle are already marginal. An in-between category definitely isn't necessary. If you feel one is closer to an Assault Rifle, put it in the AR list. Otherwise, put it on the SMG list. It doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

That's the real point: there's basically no room to squeeze them in.

Then one could file the aforementiond PDWs, that use special ammunition, as SMGs, give them 200m max range and rule that regular ammunition for those does not exist but that they use special ammunition which is harder to get (9R), more expensive (45 NuYen per 10 rounds) and has a -2 AP modifier (all halfway between regular ammo and APDS as not to render the latter useless for those PDWs).

What do you think?

As for the carbines: In my mind they are either SMGs with the damage of Assault Rifles or Assault Rifles with the ranges of SMGs. Either way would work imho

I feel like a -1 AP is more like it (cf. Assault Rifles), but yeah, you can always custom-rule a weapon. I mean, the Defiance T-250 sawed off has wholly different stats.

As I see it the AP from Assault Rifles is built in by design of the weapon and works in addition to any ammunition you use, whereas the AP on the PDWs is only from the special ammunition used, that's why I chose that way to describe it. It only has that AP as long as you use that special ammunition.
Giving the weapon itself the AP would be overpowered in the case of PDWs imho.

That's what the Extended/Reduced Barrel options can help simulate. Again, no need to make a whole new category for such a minute niche.

On second thought, I'd also model carbines as assault rifles with the barrel reduction mod just for simplicity's sake.

Still makes me wonder why carbines are listed as a separate specialization.

If I really aimed for more "realism", I'd use weapon designs instead of the current categories as specializations. E.g. a present-day U.S. soldier would have the automatics skill with a specialization "AR15", which would apply to the M16 rifle and M4 carbine, but also the 9mm Colt SMG variant. However I'm not sure whether the added "realism" is worth the hassle.

They still are different from both SMGs and Assault Rifles.
If you are used to SMGs they feel strange because of the different caliber/stats of the rounds, if you are used to Assault Rifles they feel strange because of less accuracy and less AP.
In Addition it's bigger than the average SMG and smaller than the average Assault Rifle.
I think that would justify a specialisation for carbines even if they do not have their own category.

Revolvers have a separate specialization, too, even though it's not an actual weapon category. The Heavy Pistols specialization covers the Ruger Warhawk (revolver) and even the Remington Roomsweeper (shotgun). Specializations aren't solely limited to metagame categories.

Carbines are ARs with reduced barrel, as said above.
PDWs are machine pistols or SMGs with APDS.

Even the real differences are not exactly clear, creating another group in the fuzzy area between SMGs and assault rifles wouldn't help with that...

But does it even matter? Weapon specializations don't depend on table names

Where can I find the Barrel Reduction/Extension mod?

Arsenal, page 150, "Barrel Extension/Reduction"

Isn't a carbine generally more accurate than an assault rifle (less recoil)?

Quite the opposite, actually. A carbine and an AR using the same ammo type will have roughly the same recoil generated by the round; the carbine, due to having less material and therefore less weight fighting the recoil, will buck a little more than normal. Due to the shorter barrel length, the carbine will also have a slightly reduced max range (though not necessarily max effective range).

Let's face it. There are no carbines in SR4... yeah, some guns have "carbine" in their name or discribtion, but such thing as a carbine does not exist in SR...

Honestly, isn't the problem that 'carbines' in SR are classed as SMGs? A carbine is very clearly an AR, with maybe integral Barrel Reduction and a folding/telescoping/retractible/detachable stock. So, AR range, reduced a little (still more than SMG), AR damage, AR skill specialization…

Nah, the problem is just how weapons are handled in the game, period. Pretty much everything is a completely arbitrary arrangement that rarely make any real sense. Why does a SA/BF Machine Pistol require a completely different skill than a SA/BF Light Pistol, for instance? You can't even "default" to the other skill. It's an all-or-nothing proposition. It's either Agility + Automatics/Pistols or just Agility - 1. No room in between without buying two unrelated skills.

Logically most carbines would belong into the AR section. But as Doc Funkenstein said, weapon categories and stats don't exactly follow real world mechanics. A dead shot with an assault rifle wouldn't be able to use any of his skills with a civillian (semi-automatic) variant, while everybody who can shoot an MG can handle an ATGM just as well.

PS: Then again, by not making sense SR rules perfectly mimic real life rules/laws for firearms

Dr. Funkenstein: Okay, yes, that's the *real* problem. I just meant for this rules question.

That said, there are 'machine pistols' that are just like pistols (Glock G18, I think?) and there are those that are more like small SMGs (Mini-Uzi?I dunno). I think SR uses a size-category system specifically because the terms are so vague. So, the G18 is a BF/FA pistol in SR, and the Mini-Uzi is a Machine Pistol, and the bigger Uzi is an SMG.

For most things, it works /okay/, except for the edge cases, but the Firearms skills are exactly where they run into (lots of) trouble.

This also begs the question of why longarms and assault rifles have no overlap.

Maybe break the skills up into Short Arms and Long Arms, by firing type (SS, SA, BF). Specializations would still be by weapon, though...

That actually sounds pretty cool.

Well, there's always trouble. When does an SMG fire 'more like' an AR than a machine pistol? How much different is the skillset for sniping than firing a shotgun? Tricksy, bleh. I fully support a simple system of 'default to related gun', but it's not a snap to make one that's game balanced and RL-logical.

There's two easy solutions here, folks... house-rule in a category somewhere between SMGs and ARs in terms of range and damage/AP, or roll with the barrel extension/reduction idea. I'm not sure this is any more complex than that.

Yeah. Like I said, there's really not much room between SMG and AR; SMG is 5P, AR is 6P/-1. So, I think a PDW *maybe* would 5P/-1, and a little extra range (only 10-20%). This fits the 'special armor piercing ammo' concept the we associate with PDWs, but also their modest range. The P90, for example, has only slightly more effective range than SR's SMG category, while the (real-life) AK-74 is definitely in SR's AR range category. Easiest thing would be just give the special stats in the weapon description, instead of a whole special category. Definitely use the SMG specialization, though.

By the way things are going with modern weapons designs, it's probably best to figure that the ARs in the game are what we would consider carbines and that the carbines are more like the super-chopped "shorty" longarms that are cycling around now.

*shrug* I just go by the game art. Maybe armor's a little better in the future, and we need the extra barrel length.