Quality BP Limitations Options

[chinagreenelvis]

This might be a pointless thread, but I really feel like limiting Positive and Negative qualities to 35 BP each really puts a hurting on the fun that could really be had if it were raised to something like 50. Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?

[D2F]

Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?

With 6 billion people in the world, someone is bound to find that 35 is not enough. I think 35 is just fine.

[Dumori]

I tend to say anything over 35 is a very much my decision area. I some times also play the rule that you only get 50% back on negatives under -35 and pay x2 more on positives over 35.

[Eratosthenes]

I really hate seeing people taking Mild Addiction: Betel as a negative quality. Cheesy much? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Bull]

All things Chargen are subject to the GMs approval. I know I'm both real careful with what I allow, and if you take it as a flaw, you better be damn sure it's going to come into play somehow.

If my players take a flaw and then roleplay it on a regular basis, cool, that's the end of it. As long as it factors in. But folks who take Colorblind and then just ignore it? Heh. "So, Bob, you need to cut a wire or you blow up real good. You know you have to cut the green wire..."

As for how many points, I generally go with the book default, but I might allow more if there was a good reason and the player wasn't just trying to munch out.

Bull

[Karoline]

This might be a pointless thread, but I really feel like limiting Positive and Negative qualities to 35 BP each really puts a hurting on the fun that could really be had if it were raised to something like 50. Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?

I think it's generally enough. It is designed that you have to make choices and can't just grab everything you want. I think they also priced certain qualities with the 35 limit in mind. You can't for instance get Type-O and biocompatability, not because they exclude each other, but because their total cost is over 35.

I do have to admit that those positive quality points disappear rather quickly when making a mage, and so I've seen some GMs have magic related qualities (positive and negative) not count towards the 35BP limit. This makes things like aspected mage alot more attractive, since it is a very serious hit compared to most other things of similar BP.

[Red-ROM]

I only feel the squeeze when it comes to martial arts. We really need to cut those karate guys a break.

[Belvidere]

As a GM, I allow 50 points of positive without an issue, cause you're spending your BP, so if you want those instead. There are a lot of things you could use more you might be losing out on. And I guess I'm blessed to have heavy roleplaying players. Ive got players who take more than 35 BP worth of negative qualities because it fits the character, but only take the 35 bonus BP.

[Udoshi]

I do have to admit that those positive quality points disappear rather quickly when making a mage, and so I've seen some GMs have magic related qualities (positive and negative) not count towards the 35BP limit. This makes things like aspected mage alot more attractive, since it is a very serious hit compared to most other things of similar BP.

Agreed. And some things, like martial arts, ought to be skills. A personal annoyance is Obscure and Blandness. They do the same thing, one for the real world, one for the matrix, and one is priced double the other. Go figure.

Sometimes I feel like the 35bp limit is too small. Sometimes you have a rather cool idea or backstory, and you want to stat it. Because, really, a character should have an interesting place to come from and some qualities to reflect it. But you also want to fit in qualities to make your character effective in their chosen role, and I don't mean min-maxed to hell and back, but effective in the 10-15 dice pool range that says your character knows what they're doing. The problem comes in when you try to fit both in the points you have to work with, and you're 5-10 points over, and its rather annoying.

It would be nice if GM's in general would relax on the 35 limit a bit, actually look at what a player is trying to do on a case by case basis, and give them a little leeway if it fits with a theme. I'd rather have a player feeling into the game, behind a neat concept they like, contributing to the game instead of rerolling a more generic archetype cause of a knee-jerk gm reaction. I mean, there is plenty of stupid powergamey min-maxey shit you can do within the limit already. 5-10 points here and there of flavorful qualities add up. If someone wants to play a crash victim who got their sin back eventually, and ended up with both Mistaken Identity and Digital Doppelganger out of it, which is kinda neat - but if that same player is the playgroups Magician, well, crap, no room for a Mentor Spirit or a Spirit Pact, or other mage-related qualities.

I, personally, think the 35 limit is too small, but also that some qualities are really not properly priced or worth taking, which doesn't help either, and that it is ultimately up to a gm to say no - or yes - to things the players bring up. An optimizer will work within the rules to get what they want anyway, but a more casual, inspired player might not have the persistence or book-fu to do the same, and it just hurts that kind of player who just want to have fun.

Solutions to your problem? Use your discretion. Be candid with your players. Tell it to them straight: if you have a cool concept, run it by me. But if you bring a cyberzombie to the table, by god, i'm going to eat all the cheetos, then go to the toilet with your character sheet in hand, and put it on myspace.'

Yes, that means I do have a cyberzombie build I could use out the door of character generation. Would I ever actually use it? No, no I wouldn't. Instead, have some houserules i've spotted around dumpshock that might be of use.

Saw a decent houserule in a thread last week or so, for this. Player's get to take up to 70 in positive qualities - but anything over 35 must have an equal number of negative qualities to go with it. Subject to the gm going 'no, that's stupid', of course.

Kerenshara also has a pretty decent list of minor argh-reducing houserules and things, in the 'seeking seattle runners' thread from ages ago. Since its on-topic, i'm going to paste it here.

IF you choose to play a Technomancer of an Awakened character, I DO NOT count the cost of the Qualities directly related to those abilities against the 70 Karma limit on Qualities. That would include:
• Technomancer
• Paragon
• Wild Technomancer
• Adept
• Mystic Adept
• Magician
• Mentor Spirit
• Aspected Magician
If you have another quality you feel should be added to that list, I will listen and approve/disapprove on a 1-on-1 basis. Latent Technomancer and Latent Awakening still both count against the limit.

I do NOT consider the "Martial Arts Qualities" from Arsenal to be subject to the 70 Karma limit.

[Medicineman]

This might be a pointless thread, but I really feel like limiting Positive and Negative qualities to 35 BP each really puts a hurting on the fun that could really be had if it were raised to something like 50. Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?

Do it "the GURPS Way"
invent Quirks.
5 Minor Disadvantages
(like Addiction to Bethel,prefers authentic Coffee & Tobacco,loves his Bike,etc)as a Package for 5BP. These are Minor Disadvantage,not Worth 5 Points by themselves thats why you take them as a "Package"
That Way you can have much more Disadvantages and thus much more Fun

with more fun Dances
Medicineman

[Banaticus]

Sometimes I feel like the 35bp limit is too small. Sometimes you have a rather cool idea or backstory, and you want to stat it. Because, really, a character should have an interesting place to come from and some qualities to reflect it. But you also want to fit in qualities to make your character effective in their chosen role, and I don't mean min-maxed to hell and back, but effective in the 10-15 dice pool range that says your character knows what they're doing. The problem comes in when you try to fit both in the points you have to work with, and you're 5-10 points over, and its rather annoying.

Which is precisely why all the best mucnkins are awesome roleplayers and writers, 'cause you're not going to be able to break the rules and get the truly awesome uber stuff without some serious written novels and a lot of roleplaying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[D2F]

Which is precisely why all the best mucnkins are awesome roleplayers and writers, 'cause you're not going to be able to break the rules and get the truly awesome uber stuff without some serious written novels and a lot of roleplaying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You don't need a BP quality for a background story.

[Karoline]

You don't need a BP quality for a background story.

But if you're background story includes "I was an escaped clone" it would be weird to not have the escaped clone quality. Or to claim you are a wanted person with a bounty on your head, and then not have the bounty and so on.

[Doc Chaos]

But if you're background story includes "I was an escaped clone" it would be weird to not have the escaped clone quality. Or to claim you are a wanted person with a bounty on your head, and then not have the bounty and so on.

Only if your GM is "narrow minded" enough to ignore everything that isn't served RAW.

[D2F]

But if you're background story includes "I was an escaped clone" it would be weird to not have the escaped clone quality. Or to claim you are a wanted person with a bounty on your head, and then not have the bounty and so on.

Why would that be weird? You would simply not have the benefits of the quality. There could be various reasons for that. For excemple, I have an Ork technomancer with two case modded cyberarms, yet I don't have the "distinctive style" flaw. Why? Because I can and will cover them up if nescessary. In the case of the escaped clone it could be something along the lines of "the original owner is not registered in the system". It would be weird to get confused with someone they should not have in the system in the first place.

I can only repeat myself: You don't need qualities for a background. To argue that you should have them BECAUSE of your background is ludicrous.

[fistandantilus4....]

I like a wider point limit, as long as it makes sense to the character and their background. I don't see why a player shouldn't be able to customize their character with qualities rather than skills.

Naturally everything should be to GM approval.

[Mäx]

If i ever get to paly i will definedly try to convice my GM to either raise the point limits on qualities or agree that indeb shouldn't be a quality and just use its rules for taking a lone at chargen.
This is becouse there are few negative qualites i would like to take for my Sasha but i kinda need that 20k (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) from indeb 4.

[Karoline]

That I can back up. I don't like in-debt as a negative quality very much, but think it is a good means to gain some extra starting cash.

[Nixda]

I think the 35 limit is about right. That doesnt mean I cant allow more when a player has a character concept that doesnt work out at all with a 35 limit, but I'd only allow it if I had the impression that it really was for concept reasons and not powergaming ones.

However, concerning game balance I especially like how Adepts can have a Type O system, while Mystic Adepts cannot. While this does not offset the power difference between the two, it surely helps a lot.

I have to agree on the martial arts, though - the way it is currently designed, characters are better off learning their MA styles once the game has started, which is counter-intuitive to some concepts. As far as mages are concerned, I do not see them having enough problems - in fact they're quite powerful - to justify needing a higher limit. Being a mage with the versatility, power and amount of game time in the spotlight is a nice advantage and priced fairly, imho.

[Omenowl]

I think it depends on what you do.

A character with a wife and baby (10 or 15), a full time job (15), debt (30) and a addiction to gambling (10), sinner (5) makes perfect sense while still blowing the 35 bp limit. The story writes itself as to why the character turned to shadowrunning as he got into debt from gambling and has to pay it off else they will go after his family.

It would just depend on what the positive qualities that he bought if I would allow him to get more than 35 points in positive qualities.

[D2F]

I think it depends on what you do.

A character with a wife and baby (10 or 15), a full time job (15), debt (30) and a addiction to gambling (10), sinner (5) makes perfect sense while still blowing the 35 bp limit. The story writes itself as to why the character turned to shadowrunning as he got into debt from gambling and has to pay it off else they will go after his family.

It would just depend on what the positive qualities that he bought if I would allow him to get more than 35 points in positive qualities.

That character would be nigh impossible to play anyway.

[Doc Chaos]

And you believe that... why exactly?

[RedFish]

I am playing a character with addiction to gambling at the moment. He does not have it as a negative quality - nor do I think that should be allowed, seeing as it might be detrimental to your finances, but it is not (directly) something that leads to the deterioration of your health (it might indirectly as people you owe money come a-knocking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

[Dumori]

Addiction to gamble is stat wise a compulstion

[RedFish]

Addiction to gamble is stat wise a compulstion

True. That's one way to handle it. Personally I just go with it as I find that a lot of the personality flaws limit the roleplaying if you take them as forced stats rather than just go with what makes for the best story. Occasionally I'll roll for some things that might be interesting either way.