Shadowrun 4th Ed Options

[Jyster]

This probably already been talked about, but i dont know where.

I like 4th ed for the most part, I still dont understand why they made 8 stats and turned karma pool into Edge. Plus for edges/flaws or whatever they are called going from 1- 4 points to 5 - 20 points. It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character. You cant max your stats or skills except one and then your also penalized.

[imperialus]

You've obviously never met a pornomancer, or Mr. Lucky, or Bloodzilla, or an agent Smith army, or a troll more armour than a main battletank.

And yes, this has already been talked about. Several (some might perhaps say many) times before.

Besides, the flame war de-jour is rampant speculation on the certain alleged possible financial malfeasance co-mingling accounting errors in CGL depending on your definition of malfeasance, finances, and possibly (though I'm not sure) the presence of Jennifer's belly button ring and a lone star cop riding a unicorn... It's possible it's come full circle and returned to drop bears and Nadja Daviar's large brown nipples but I'm not sure, I gave up on the threads after the 6th one.

*edit* "Me a pornomancer?* heh... Me wishes... stupid typing

[Mantis]

Imperialus, that's hi-lar-i-us. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I too, stopped paying attention to those various threads, but even sooner, around 2 or 3. I like the generalized characters in SR4. I had to deal with too many of the troll tanks in SR3 and like that things are more balanced now.

[wind_in_the_ston...]

This probably already been talked about, but i dont know where.

I like 4th ed for the most part, I still dont understand why they made 8 stats and turned karma pool into Edge. Plus for edges/flaws or whatever they are called going from 1- 4 points to 5 - 20 points. It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character. You cant max your stats or skills except one and then your also penalized.

Hang around a while. Every few weeks there's a discussion about how SR is made for min/maxing, and what to do about it.

You can very easily make a narrow character, and you don't have to put sixes in more than one stat to do it. Five is pretty close to six, and there's always 'ware. Lots of 'ware...

[Medicineman]

This probably already been talked about, but i dont know where.

I like 4th ed for the most part, I still dont understand why they made 8 stats and turned karma pool into Edge. Plus for edges/flaws or whatever they are called going from 1- 4 points to 5 - 20 points. It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character. You cant max your stats or skills except one and then your also penalized.

8 Stats
Maybe so you can play a dumb Troll that istn't Blind as a bat (is that a correct saying ?)
Edge Instead of Karmapool
Karmapool for Humans was a Powergaming-Tool in SR3 especially with 3 Digit Karma Chars
Edge istn't anymore Plus you can now have a "Lucky Guy Char"
Points
in SR3 you had 120 BP and Advantages were 1-4 Points
in SR4 you get 400 BP and Advantages for 5-20 Points
To me its nearly the same

It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character.
to Me it seems as if they tried to erase the Mistakes they made in SR3 by forcing the Char into Overspecialisation
Having a SR4 Char with Two natural Attributes of 5 and 2 Skills of 5 (+ Specialisation, ' ware and other Boni for a Pool of 12-15)is ImO a Specialist.So ,you can still have your Specialist in SR4

and yes this discussion isn't new (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with no new Dance
Medicineman

[Blade]

Intelligence was broken down in Intuition and Logic because too many fighting chars had high intelligence just to get a higher combat pool, initiative and for perception tests. Quickness was broken down into Agility and Reaction because you had to keep the same number of mental and physical attribute, and having the same attribute for shooting and dodging would make it far too useful compared to the other attributes.
I don't know exactly why karma pool was turned into Edge, but I've seen too many veteran SR3 characters being able to do anything they wanted just because they had a huge karma pool (Surviving a railgun shot or a fall from the 40th floor) while starting characters were unable to follow.

They didn't exactly try to force you to generalize your character. You can still specialize, but that'll require a real investment. I remember a SR3 player who wanted to have a really fast character. The problem was that any good streetsam would actually be as fast as this character because it didn't cost that much to be the best. In SR4, the same character would have been really faster than most other.

[Delta]

I don't know exactly why karma pool was turned into Edge, but I've seen too many veteran SR3 characters being able to do anything they wanted just because they had a huge karma pool (Surviving a railgun shot or a fall from the 40th floor) while starting characters were unable to follow.

I'd say that's exactly the reason. Karma pool was HUGE in SR3, and it was simply ridiculous once you hit some 2-300 points of karma, even if you didn't refresh the pool between adventures, you had DOZENS of free rerolls. With Edge, you really have to pick the rolls you know will be important, with karma, you could just use a reroll on pretty much any roll you didn't like, which IMHO became quite boring after a while.

[Karoline]

Yes, blind as a bat is the correct expression Medicineman.

Now, on to the OP.

I understand what you are getting at, since you can't max stats and skills as easily in SR4 as in SR3, but you have to keep a few things in mind.

First of which is that stats are more important in SR4 than they were in SR3, since they directly influence your DP as opposed to indirectly influencing things like your combat pool. In SR3, an extra point of quickness was an extra 1/3rd (or was it 1/2?) of a combat pool die, which in turn could only be used once per combat turn. In SR4, an extra point of agility is a full extra die, that is used every time you make a: attack roll, infiltration roll, gymnastics roll, and a few other rolls. Similarly an extra point of reaction is always an extra die on all defense rolls.

Next thing you have to keep in mind, is that in SR3, a skill of 6 was good, but was far from the top of the game. In SR4, 6 is basically as good as it gets.

And actually, BP pushes you to specialize, not to generalize. Remember, there is supposed to be roughly a 2:1 ratio for karma to BP, but 1 and 2 point skills and 2 point attributes all cost the same amount of BP as karma. So BP pushes you to go as high as you can, then puts in a ceiling. I don't know that I'd call that pushing people not to specialize.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And actually, BP pushes you to specialize, not to generalize. Remember, there is supposed to be roughly a 2:1 ratio for karma to BP, but 1 and 2 point skills and 2 point attributes all cost the same amount of BP as karma. So BP pushes you to go as high as you can, then puts in a ceiling. I don't know that I'd call that pushing people not to specialize.

Yes, when I was creating my first SR4 character I realized that having any starting skill lower than 4 was worst than starting with a zero rating and buy it with karma, except maybe for skill groups. In the end, my starting skills were: Hacking 5, Perception 5, Electronics SG 4, Infiltration SG 4, Blade 4, Unarmed Combat 4. Later I picked Heavy Weapons, Athletics SG, negotiation, etiquette, etc.

[Jyster]

I realize you can still tweak out your character as social, gun bunny etc. I dont think that will ever go away.

My longest campaign was with 2nd that added a little of 3rd when it came out.

The flaws with 5pt increment kinda hard to pay off after character creation compared to 2nd or 3rd edition. My 3pt flaw is now a 15pt flaw, which would take at least 3-4 sessions to pay off.

I actually like the 4ed mechanics better for the most part. Has movement ever been fixed in any ed yet?

I still liked how you could go multiple times before someone else in initiative, but I understand why they changed it.

[hermit]

Edge Instead of Karmapool
Karmapool for Humans was a Powergaming-Tool in SR3 especially with 3 Digit Karma Chars
Edge istn't anymore Plus you can now have a "Lucky Guy Char"

Which of course isn't powergaming at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I had to deal with too many of the troll tanks in SR3 and like that things are more balanced now.

Yes, making encumberance dependent on the primary soak attribute really put an end to tank trolls! No, wait ...

But that discussion has been had a million billion times, and everyone knows where they stand ... so, unless you care to be flamed by either zealots of SR4 like Medicine Man (though his English is even worse than his German) or yours truly, you might well just ... leave it be ...

Also, for the record, the attribute split is something I rather like. I'd have left Quickness alone and Reaction a derived int/Q attribute and split charisma into impression and looks, but the idea was the same.

[Saint Sithney]

I actually like the 4ed mechanics better for the most part. Has movement ever been fixed in any ed yet?

That depends on what you mean. If you mean, characters with greater and fewer IPs having problems meshing up their movements across a combat turn, that's mostly fixed. If you mean the fact that your average guy can sprint like an Olympic athlete, that's still a bit weird.

[Synner667]

I actually like the 4ed mechanics better for the most part.

They're pretty much the same as World of Darkness, except it uses d10s.

When I got Aeon Trinity, sometime in the 90s, I used those rules instead of SR v2 - it worked out ok...
...But I did a lot of tweaking of both systems and ended up moving on.

[Medicineman]

.....
unless you care to be flamed by either zealots of SR4 like Medicine Man (though his English is even worse than his German) or yours truly, you might well just ... leave it be ...
....

Sigh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif)
It was such a nice Time here at Dumpshock
Until You reapear and start the flaming !
You can shove your Grudge against me(and the others that have proven you wrong in the past) where the sun won't shine

Hough!
Medicineman

[Grinder]

Careful, hermit and Medicineman.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/extinguish.gif)

[Cardul]

Biggest thing thing that bugs me(and so, I ignore it) about 4th Edition is the change that when you
take a move action, your movement is divided by the number of passes you can take. I remember
when having multiple initiative passes meant that you could, indeed, run at 60 KPH, and I remember,
one time, a Street Sam on a bicycle out pedaling a Rapier...

Honestly...I think that is the ONLY 4th Edition rule I just outright ignore..

[Doc Chaos]

Which of course isn't powergaming at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Indeed, it is not. Edge does not give you a "lucky" way out of every bad die you throw, because after you spend it, it has to regenerate. Which it does rather slowly.

[Karoline]

Biggest thing thing that bugs me(and so, I ignore it) about 4th Edition is the change that when you
take a move action, your movement is divided by the number of passes you can take. I remember
when having multiple initiative passes meant that you could, indeed, run at 60 KPH, and I remember,
one time, a Street Sam on a bicycle out pedaling a Rapier...

Honestly...I think that is the ONLY 4th Edition rule I just outright ignore..

See, and I'm in the opposite camp. None of the reflex enhancers cause you to physically move quicker, so there is no reason for them to cause you to run faster than a car.

[Doc Chaos]

I agree. The enhancements grow/get attached to your nervesystem. They dont boost your muscles.

[hermit]

Indeed, it is not. Edge does not give you a "lucky" way out of every bad die you throw, because after you spend it, it has to regenerate. Which it does rather slowly.

Edge also is far more powerful than Karma pool in that it generates far more relaible successes with one point spent than Karma Pool, and rerolls are exploding. 9 Edge do NOT equal 9 Karma Pool in effectiveness, but more something around 400 (for buying dice, less for rerollsing, though exploding dice and sure successes make it still far more effective). Also, you get 9 Hands of God with Edge versus one per character lifetime in SR3. Mr. Lucky is far harder to kill than Mr. 100 Karma Pool, because there is the escape death rule, and has the equivalent of 400 Karmapool (equalling 4000 lifetime KArma for humans and 8000 lifetime KArma for metahumans by SR3 rules) in dice he may buy.

[CeeJay]

Mr. Lucky is far harder to kill than Mr. 100 Karma Pool, because there is the escape death rule. Edge also is far more powerful than Karma pool in that it generates far more relaible successes with one point spent than Karma Pool, and rerolls are exploding. 9 Edge do NOT equal 9 Karma Pool in effectiveness, but more something around 400 (for buying dice, less for rerollsing, though exploding dice and sure successes make it still far more effective). Also, you get 9 Hands of God with Edge versus one per character lifetime in SR3.

It's been a long time since I last played SR3 but if my memory serves me, you could use more than one Karma pool on a single roll in SR3. Espescially on rerolling, that was really powerfull (1 Karma to reroll missed dice, than 2 Karma to reroll again, than 3 Karma, than 4 and so on).
In SR4 you are limited to one use of edge on a single roll, so I would argue that 9 Edge (which is impossible, by the way, max is 8 for a human Mr. Lucky) are better than 100 Karma Pool.
But on the other hand, in SR4 you can start play with a high edge attribute, in SR3 you actually had to "earn" your Karma pool. But when you reach a 3-digit Karma Pool you should have a quite competent character, don't you think? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-CJ

[KnightRunner]

Yes, blind as a bat is the correct expression Medicineman.

It may be the correct expression, but the expression is not correct. Bats are not blind. (And yes I know I am picking nits, but I often work with bats and the misconceptions annoy me.)

[tete]

This probably already been talked about, but i dont know where.

I like 4th ed for the most part, I still dont understand why they made 8 stats and turned karma pool into Edge. Plus for edges/flaws or whatever they are called going from 1- 4 points to 5 - 20 points. It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character. You cant max your stats or skills except one and then your also penalized.

8 Stats for a few reasons, now that you have attribute+skill you dont want INT to be a god stat so you split it into two. Reaction was always an odd stat to begin with so it kind made sense to move it over to the core to keep with even physical and mental. Edge well they removed all pools so you have to call it something, also I've known player characters with 50 karma pool which can get a bit insane when you use it to reroll all failed dice (ie they never fail a test) While I would have personally preferred 6 stats and Karma Pool get renamed to Karma, I didnt design 4e.

[Sengir]

Waidaminute, isn't the usual complaint "All those minmaxers are ruining my games!!!!!!!1111111111"? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


I'd also like to point out that burning edge lets you survive the falling rocks, not ignore them. You will still be in for a long hospital visit, massive cyber replacement, disfiguring scars, paralysis, or anything else the GM comes up with. And if a player still thinks he can abuse the rule, the Hand of God might take the shape of somebody/something with a "sign on the dotted line in your own blood" kind of proposal...

[hermit]

It's been a long time since I last played SR3 but if my memory serves me, you could use more than one Karma pool on a single roll in SR3. Espescially on rerolling, that was really powerfull (1 Karma to reroll missed dice, than 2 Karma to reroll again, than 3 Karma, than 4 and so on).

You got to reroll for additional successes, yes, but Edge can do that too,although using edge to add [edge] dice always is more useful, IMO, because it just may double your dice pool.

You could also add dice in SR3, at 1 for 1 die, 2 for 2, 3 for 3, ect. Mr. Lucky adds 9 dice for 1 Edge. That'S worth 45 Karmapool in SR3. Each. Time.

In SR4 you are limited to one use of edge on a single roll, so I would argue that 9 Edge (which is impossible, by the way, max is 8 for a human Mr. Lucky) are better than 100 Karma Pool.

Extraordinary attribute, Luck, maximum Edge = 9. Or are Ex. Attribute and Luck incompatible? If so, why introduce Luck? And even with the limit, that's still 45 (36 in case of incompatibility) Karmapool spent on that roll in SR3 terms.

But on the other hand, in SR4 you can start play with a high edge attribute, in SR3 you actually had to "earn" your Karma pool. But when you reach a 3-digit Karma Pool you should have a quite competent character, don't you think?

You sure would. I've never seen one, because at a certain power level you just semiregularily burn Karmapool for hits to stay alive. I've seen more than one four-digit Karma Pool characters and none of them had a 3-digit Karma Pool. Whereas you can have Mr. Lucky in SR4 straight out the box.

So yes, I consider Mr. Lucky far more powerful than anything of that sort you could hope to have as a startup character in SR3.