This probably already been talked about, but i dont know where.

I like 4th ed for the most part, I still dont understand why they made 8 stats and turned karma pool into Edge. Plus for edges/flaws or whatever they are called going from 1- 4 points to 5 - 20 points. It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character. You cant max your stats or skills except one and then your also penalized.

You've obviously never met a pornomancer, or Mr. Lucky, or Bloodzilla, or an agent Smith army, or a troll more armour than a main battletank.

And yes, this has already been talked about. Several (some might perhaps say many) times before.

Besides, the flame war de-jour is rampant speculation on the certain alleged possible financial malfeasance co-mingling accounting errors in CGL depending on your definition of malfeasance, finances, and possibly (though I'm not sure) the presence of Jennifer's belly button ring and a lone star cop riding a unicorn... It's possible it's come full circle and returned to drop bears and Nadja Daviar's large brown nipples but I'm not sure, I gave up on the threads after the 6th one.

*edit* "Me a pornomancer?* heh... Me wishes... stupid typing

Imperialus, that's hi-lar-i-us. I too, stopped paying attention to those various threads, but even sooner, around 2 or 3. I like the generalized characters in SR4. I had to deal with too many of the troll tanks in SR3 and like that things are more balanced now.

Hang around a while. Every few weeks there's a discussion about how SR is made for min/maxing, and what to do about it.

You can very easily make a narrow character, and you don't have to put sixes in more than one stat to do it. Five is pretty close to six, and there's always 'ware. Lots of 'ware...

8 Stats
Maybe so you can play a dumb Troll that istn't Blind as a bat (is that a correct saying ?)
Edge Instead of Karmapool
Karmapool for Humans was a Powergaming-Tool in SR3 especially with 3 Digit Karma Chars
Edge istn't anymore Plus you can now have a "Lucky Guy Char"
Points
in SR3 you had 120 BP and Advantages were 1-4 Points
in SR4 you get 400 BP and Advantages for 5-20 Points
To me its nearly the same

It seems to me that they tried their hardest to make sure you generalized your character.
to Me it seems as if they tried to erase the Mistakes they made in SR3 by forcing the Char into Overspecialisation
Having a SR4 Char with Two natural Attributes of 5 and 2 Skills of 5 (+ Specialisation, ' ware and other Boni for a Pool of 12-15)is ImO a Specialist.So ,you can still have your Specialist in SR4

and yes this discussion isn't new

with no new Dance
Medicineman

Intelligence was broken down in Intuition and Logic because too many fighting chars had high intelligence just to get a higher combat pool, initiative and for perception tests. Quickness was broken down into Agility and Reaction because you had to keep the same number of mental and physical attribute, and having the same attribute for shooting and dodging would make it far too useful compared to the other attributes.
I don't know exactly why karma pool was turned into Edge, but I've seen too many veteran SR3 characters being able to do anything they wanted just because they had a huge karma pool (Surviving a railgun shot or a fall from the 40th floor) while starting characters were unable to follow.

They didn't exactly try to force you to generalize your character. You can still specialize, but that'll require a real investment. I remember a SR3 player who wanted to have a really fast character. The problem was that any good streetsam would actually be as fast as this character because it didn't cost that much to be the best. In SR4, the same character would have been really faster than most other.

I'd say that's exactly the reason. Karma pool was HUGE in SR3, and it was simply ridiculous once you hit some 2-300 points of karma, even if you didn't refresh the pool between adventures, you had DOZENS of free rerolls. With Edge, you really have to pick the rolls you know will be important, with karma, you could just use a reroll on pretty much any roll you didn't like, which IMHO became quite boring after a while.

Yes, blind as a bat is the correct expression Medicineman.

Now, on to the OP.

I understand what you are getting at, since you can't max stats and skills as easily in SR4 as in SR3, but you have to keep a few things in mind.

First of which is that stats are more important in SR4 than they were in SR3, since they directly influence your DP as opposed to indirectly influencing things like your combat pool. In SR3, an extra point of quickness was an extra 1/3rd (or was it 1/2?) of a combat pool die, which in turn could only be used once per combat turn. In SR4, an extra point of agility is a full extra die, that is used every time you make a: attack roll, infiltration roll, gymnastics roll, and a few other rolls. Similarly an extra point of reaction is always an extra die on all defense rolls.

Next thing you have to keep in mind, is that in SR3, a skill of 6 was good, but was far from the top of the game. In SR4, 6 is basically as good as it gets.

And actually, BP pushes you to specialize, not to generalize. Remember, there is supposed to be roughly a 2:1 ratio for karma to BP, but 1 and 2 point skills and 2 point attributes all cost the same amount of BP as karma. So BP pushes you to go as high as you can, then puts in a ceiling. I don't know that I'd call that pushing people not to specialize.

Yes, when I was creating my first SR4 character I realized that having any starting skill lower than 4 was worst than starting with a zero rating and buy it with karma, except maybe for skill groups. In the end, my starting skills were: Hacking 5, Perception 5, Electronics SG 4, Infiltration SG 4, Blade 4, Unarmed Combat 4. Later I picked Heavy Weapons, Athletics SG, negotiation, etiquette, etc.

I realize you can still tweak out your character as social, gun bunny etc. I dont think that will ever go away.

My longest campaign was with 2nd that added a little of 3rd when it came out.

The flaws with 5pt increment kinda hard to pay off after character creation compared to 2nd or 3rd edition. My 3pt flaw is now a 15pt flaw, which would take at least 3-4 sessions to pay off.

I actually like the 4ed mechanics better for the most part. Has movement ever been fixed in any ed yet?

I still liked how you could go multiple times before someone else in initiative, but I understand why they changed it.

Which of course isn't powergaming at all.


Yes, making encumberance dependent on the primary soak attribute really put an end to tank trolls! No, wait ...

But that discussion has been had a million billion times, and everyone knows where they stand ... so, unless you care to be flamed by either zealots of SR4 like Medicine Man (though his English is even worse than his German) or yours truly, you might well just ... leave it be ...

Also, for the record, the attribute split is something I rather like. I'd have left Quickness alone and Reaction a derived int/Q attribute and split charisma into impression and looks, but the idea was the same.

That depends on what you mean. If you mean, characters with greater and fewer IPs having problems meshing up their movements across a combat turn, that's mostly fixed. If you mean the fact that your average guy can sprint like an Olympic athlete, that's still a bit weird.

They're pretty much the same as World of Darkness, except it uses d10s.

When I got Aeon Trinity, sometime in the 90s, I used those rules instead of SR v2 - it worked out ok...
...But I did a lot of tweaking of both systems and ended up moving on.

Sigh
It was such a nice Time here at Dumpshock
Until You reapear and start the flaming !
You can shove your Grudge against me(and the others that have proven you wrong in the past) where the sun won't shine

Hough!
Medicineman

Careful, hermit and Medicineman.

Biggest thing thing that bugs me(and so, I ignore it) about 4th Edition is the change that when you
take a move action, your movement is divided by the number of passes you can take. I remember
when having multiple initiative passes meant that you could, indeed, run at 60 KPH, and I remember,
one time, a Street Sam on a bicycle out pedaling a Rapier...

Honestly...I think that is the ONLY 4th Edition rule I just outright ignore..

Indeed, it is not. Edge does not give you a "lucky" way out of every bad die you throw, because after you spend it, it has to regenerate. Which it does rather slowly.

See, and I'm in the opposite camp. None of the reflex enhancers cause you to physically move quicker, so there is no reason for them to cause you to run faster than a car.

I agree. The enhancements grow/get attached to your nervesystem. They dont boost your muscles.

Edge also is far more powerful than Karma pool in that it generates far more relaible successes with one point spent than Karma Pool, and rerolls are exploding. 9 Edge do NOT equal 9 Karma Pool in effectiveness, but more something around 400 (for buying dice, less for rerollsing, though exploding dice and sure successes make it still far more effective). Also, you get 9 Hands of God with Edge versus one per character lifetime in SR3. Mr. Lucky is far harder to kill than Mr. 100 Karma Pool, because there is the escape death rule, and has the equivalent of 400 Karmapool (equalling 4000 lifetime KArma for humans and 8000 lifetime KArma for metahumans by SR3 rules) in dice he may buy.

It's been a long time since I last played SR3 but if my memory serves me, you could use more than one Karma pool on a single roll in SR3. Espescially on rerolling, that was really powerfull (1 Karma to reroll missed dice, than 2 Karma to reroll again, than 3 Karma, than 4 and so on).
In SR4 you are limited to one use of edge on a single roll, so I would argue that 9 Edge (which is impossible, by the way, max is 8 for a human Mr. Lucky) are better than 100 Karma Pool.
But on the other hand, in SR4 you can start play with a high edge attribute, in SR3 you actually had to "earn" your Karma pool. But when you reach a 3-digit Karma Pool you should have a quite competent character, don't you think?

-CJ

It may be the correct expression, but the expression is not correct. Bats are not blind. (And yes I know I am picking nits, but I often work with bats and the misconceptions annoy me.)

8 Stats for a few reasons, now that you have attribute+skill you dont want INT to be a god stat so you split it into two. Reaction was always an odd stat to begin with so it kind made sense to move it over to the core to keep with even physical and mental. Edge well they removed all pools so you have to call it something, also I've known player characters with 50 karma pool which can get a bit insane when you use it to reroll all failed dice (ie they never fail a test) While I would have personally preferred 6 stats and Karma Pool get renamed to Karma, I didnt design 4e.

Waidaminute, isn't the usual complaint "All those minmaxers are ruining my games!!!!!!!1111111111"?


I'd also like to point out that burning edge lets you survive the falling rocks, not ignore them. You will still be in for a long hospital visit, massive cyber replacement, disfiguring scars, paralysis, or anything else the GM comes up with. And if a player still thinks he can abuse the rule, the Hand of God might take the shape of somebody/something with a "sign on the dotted line in your own blood" kind of proposal...

You got to reroll for additional successes, yes, but Edge can do that too,although using edge to add [edge] dice always is more useful, IMO, because it just may double your dice pool.

You could also add dice in SR3, at 1 for 1 die, 2 for 2, 3 for 3, ect. Mr. Lucky adds 9 dice for 1 Edge. That'S worth 45 Karmapool in SR3. Each. Time.


Extraordinary attribute, Luck, maximum Edge = 9. Or are Ex. Attribute and Luck incompatible? If so, why introduce Luck? And even with the limit, that's still 45 (36 in case of incompatibility) Karmapool spent on that roll in SR3 terms.


You sure would. I've never seen one, because at a certain power level you just semiregularily burn Karmapool for hits to stay alive. I've seen more than one four-digit Karma Pool characters and none of them had a 3-digit Karma Pool. Whereas you can have Mr. Lucky in SR4 straight out the box.

So yes, I consider Mr. Lucky far more powerful than anything of that sort you could hope to have as a startup character in SR3.

I thought about mentioning that (I know the phrase is untrue for the most part, though I did think there were a few bats that had bad vision), but figured someone who's main language isn't English getting the phrase right was doing good, no point pointing out that we use the phrase rather incorrectly (like bull in a china shop, can't polish $hit, rolling stone gathers no moss, sick as a dog, etc)

thats Plain Wrong
Extraordinary Attribute only for Physical or Mental Attributes (German 4A Pg 115 !)


Hough!
Medicineman

Rerolls are not exploding. Adding Edge to your dice pool before you roll, all the dice are exploding. Adding Edge after you roll, those extra dice are exploding. Rerolls, no explody. (P67 SR4, "Spending Edge" - each specific case specifies whether dice explode or not.)

Correct. Also in SR4 and SR4a in English. Even if that was possible, it breaks the 35BP cap on qualities as well, so, double busted.

Brought to you by the Bogus Rule Busters.

Oh, thought it was the other way round.

Anyway, then it is 'only' 36*8 worth of Karmapool in the 8 Edge of Mr. Lucky's. Still makes him a rather annoyingly powerful creature for a starter character, if you ask me. Also, don't dismiss the 8 Hands of God he is good for.

All Hands of God come with a price...

Darkeus - Shadowrun GM

In SR4, 1 Edge, yes. God has lowered prices greatly over the edition change.

This is probably a little off-topic, and I just go with it since it's written into the game. But karma means "debt." There's no "good karma" or "bad karma," these terms were invented by Westerners (hippies I imagine) that didn't grasp the concept have perpetuated... there is just karma. You accrue karma by acting out of alignment with your dharma or (depending on the faith or interpretation you follow), and the idea is to not get too much of it. At least according to the people that invented/discovered the concept over 4,000 years ago. And it's pronounce like "comma." I just find it amusing that Karma is considered a good thing in SR, and people try to accrue as much as possible.

But maybe I'm not looking at it deeply enough. The metaphysical implications of previous editions is you grow in power as your Karma does. That's actually consistent with Eastern belief systems -- as you become more invested in the world, and do things like shoot and rob people for Nyuen, you'd certainly gain more Karma than most people. Your capabilities power in this largely world will reflect your growing investment in it, and your abandonment of a proper role and/or virtue. Rather than growth coming from Karma, Karma would be a side effect of it. Even spending Karma for rerolls can be justified: As you burn your Karma and let go of your debt to Creation, fortune favors you and grants you another chance at success, or at life.

Anyways. Carry on.

Shadowrun is a child of the 80s, and as suchm influenced by that age's neobuddhism fasion.

Anyway, your take on burning Karma is a fun one. I approve of it.

Awesome...

Thanks I Hate All Life

Keep the Faith (but not the Karma)

English mugs languages for words, and changes them as it likes.

The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary. - James. D. Nicoll

I have that on a T-shirt I bought at Gencon a few years ago. It is one of my favorites.

Hehe, that's exactly what I was paraphrasing.

*bows and smiles* Thank you.
-----



That's just beautiful.

I'm going to assume Darkeus was referring to the revised Hand of God rule in SR4A which includes "Note that this does not mean the character gets off scot free. The character should not escape unharmed from whatever circumstances would have led to her death. (...) A character who uses Hand of God should be incapacitated until the end of the current adventure or until the gamemaster deems she has recovered from the side-effects of her close call."

I am referring to Escape Death. Or did SR4A change that, too?

I love the scene in Planetary when Elijah meets Sherlock Holmes and is asked what languages he speaks. Snow says "Just English.", Holmes replies "That's a mater of debate."

4A also calls the option to have PCs escape certain death "Hand of God", although players still need to burn only one point of edge and not all of it like NPCs


But I don't consider the rules to be "revised" just because they added a clarification that "survive" does not mean "emerge unscathed", that's common sense. If that still is too easy for you, see my previous posting for ways to increase the price of survival.